On May 10, 2008, in Hyderabad, one of the largest ever Christian Muslim debate was held. Bro. Jerry was the Christian speaker and Bro. Imran the Muslim speaker. The topic of debate was- Divinity of Jesus and Messengerhood of Muhammad: Separating Falsehood from Truth. Following is the transcript of the presentation by Bro. Jerry Thomas (Part 2 of Part 3).
Point 8: Where did Jesus say I am God and worship me? Bro. Imran has raised this question in his book, under the title “who can answer these questions from the Bible?” It is very easy to answer. First let us have the complete question. In Surah 5:116-117 Allah asks Jesus, did thou say to mankind “worship me and my mother as gods in derogation to Allah?” So the complete question is: did Jesus say “worship me and my mother as gods”? Bro. Imran will not quote the Quran completely as he himself knows that the question is wrong. The trinity that is revealed by the Holy Spirit to Prophet David (Psalms 110:1) confirmed by Jesus Matt 22:41-46; 28:19-20 and explained by the inspired Apostle in 2 Corinth 13:13 does not include Allah of the Quran and Mary. Two out of three persons in Quranic trinity are wrong. So the question is: Human beings can have misunderstanding. Muhammad sahab was a human being. But how can we say all-knowing God misunderstood the doctrine of Trinity. True God never misunderstands. Now let us read what Jesus said and did: In Matthew 12: 6-8 Jesus said he is greater than the temple of God. Remember temple of God was built on the very model that is in heaven. It is where Yehovah’s mighty presence dwelt. Who can say that he is greater than that temple unless he is God himself? Am I making my own reasons? No. The very next verses Jesus says. Jesus gives the reason why he is greater than the temple of God. Jesus said in the next verse “For the Son of Man is the LORD of Sabbath. In Leviticus 23:3, we know that Yehovah is the LORD of Sabbath. Unless Jesus is God, how can he say he is the LORD of Sabbath, he is the Yehovah God himself? So, the reason that Jesus gave that He is greater than the temple is that he is the LORD of Sabbath. That is the reason Jesus himself gave. In Matthew 21: 16, Jesus accepted worship as Yehovah God in the temple of God. Religious leaders objected and asked Jesus to stop people from doing it. But Jesus endorsed it by quoting Ps 8:1-2 which speaks about praises meant only for Yehovah and applied to himself. If Jesus does not have the identity with Yehovah God himself, how can he apply this verse to himself? In Revelation 21: 6, 7, listen to this carefully, the one who is the alpha and omega speaks. And this Alpha and Omega identifies himself as Jesus in Revelation 22:13 & 16. This Alpha and Omega says in Revelation 21:7."He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be my son" Did Jesus say that He is God? Yes, he said it in Revelation 21:7. If Muhammad sahib denies it, in Surah 5:116-117 then the problem is: Usually Islamic preachers quote John 14: 16 and say that one is who promised by Jesus is Muhammad sahab. It cannot be. Because in John 14:26 Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will come and confirm the words of Jesus and not contradict it. However Muhammad sahab contradicted it. Therefore Muhammad sahab cannot be. Now, Bro. Imran you may say many are called as gods and sons of God in the Bible (Psalms 82:6). But as Psalms 82:7 explains it and Galatians 4:8 say they are not gods by nature. Did Jesus have the exact nature of God? That is why in John 1:14 Jesus is called as the monogenes of the Father which can be translated as the only begotten, the only one, or one of its kind. Is Jesus the only one who is called as Son of God and has the exact nature of God? Yes. Let us see the whether Jesus has the exact nature of God or not. Point 9: Is Jesus say that he is the eternally existing God? Yes according Prophet Isaiah. Yes according to LORD Jesus. No according to Muhammad sahab. Isaiah 9:6 says the child who is born, the son who is given is the Mighty God. According to Isaiah 10:21 Yehovah is the mighty God. Do not bring your own explanations. Bro. Imran listen carefully, otherwise you might come and say Jesus is not saying what I am going to prove but saying that God chose Jesus before the foundations of the world as believers are chosen in (Jeremiah 1: 5 and Ephesians 1:4). You may say what you want but the fact is Jesus contradicts you. In John 17:5 Jesus says, listen to this- “And now, o Father, glorify me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was." Further, in John 6:38 Jesus again said: I have come down from heaven. In John 6:62 Jesus once asked "Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending TO WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?" In John 8: 58 Jesus says “your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day and he saw it and was glad. Then the Jews asked him, “you are not yet fifty years old and have you seen Abraham?” In other words, how can Jesus exist before Prophet Abraham? Jesus answered them “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was I AM”. And we have already seen the occasion when did Prophet Abraham met Jesus. In Surah 3:59 Muhammad sahab says that Jesus is created. Then our conclusion should be that Allah of the Quran who sent Muhammad sahab is different from Yehovah of the Biblical prophets. Is Allah who sent Muhammad sahab eternal? IREF website says Allah has literal face, hands and legs. I have no problem with it. But my question is: In Surah 28:88 says all things perish, except Allah’s Face. This is further stated in Surah. 55:26-27. If only Allah’s face exist, then Allah’s hands and legs are not eternal. Since the God of the Biblical prophets is eternal, Muhammad sahab cannot be sent by the same God who sent the Biblical prophets. Point 10: Did Jesus say He is the All-Powerful God? No according to Islamic preachers. Yes according to Jesus. Usually Dawwah preachers quote John 5:19 and John 5:30 which Imran also has quoted in his book. In John 5:19 Jesus says “Most assuredly I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do. “ Dawwah preachers stop at this. But the verse continues. FOR WHATEVER HE DOES, THE SON ALSO DOES in LIKE MANNER.” Who can say that I can do everything that God does unless He is God himself? When Jesus says Son can do nothing of himself, he was emphasizing the unity
between Father and Son. In fact, this perfect unity between Jesus and Holy Spirit is emphasized when Jesus said “but if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come to you.” In John 10:28 Jesus showed that he is the all powerful God-Jesus says I give unto them eternal life. Only God has that Power. Question: In contrast to Jesus who offers eternal life, Muhammad sahab in Surah S. 46:9 said NOR DO I KNOW WHAT WILL BE DONE WITH ME OR WITH YOU. Muhammad sahab cannot offer salvation is confirmed in Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Number 266, Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Number 16). Bro. Imran please explain this? (Sakshi comment: Bro. Imran came and told in the question and answer session that every prophet can offer eternal life. Bro. Imran did not cite a single verse. What is the value of an empty claim?) Point 11: Did Jesus say that He is everywhere who is omnipresent God? Yes according to Jesus. In Matthew 18: 20, Jesus says wherever two or three gathers in my name, there I am with them. In Matthew 28:20 Jesus says I am with you always. First for Jesus Christ to know wherever two or three gathers in the whole world in His name, He must be all-knowing. To be everywhere at the same time, He must be omnipresent. Question: IREF website says Allah is not omnipresent or everywhere. Then how can we say that God who sent Muhammad sahab is the same God who sent earlier Biblical Prophets. Because according to Ps 139:7-12, Yehovah is omnipresent. Point 12: Is Jesus all-knowing God? Does Jesus have future knowledge? Remember, Jesus is both human and divine. Bro. Imran in his book Calling to Islam, page number 319 quotes Mark 13:32 and Matthew 24:36 which says, “But that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the son but the Father.” (Sakshi comment: It is page number 391). Based on this Br. Imran asks, if Jesus does not know something then how can he be the all-knowing God? What Bro. Imran will not clearly tell you is that in Surah 7: 187, 79:42-45 people twice asked Muhammad sahab the same question- about the final hour and when it will be the appointed time. Two questions asked twice. And the only answer that Allah gave at that time is “I know”. And Bro. Imran will himself say I know is not an answer. If you go an examination hall and write “I know” teacher will ask you to write the answer. This is what Bro. Imran himself has put the standard. Bro. Imran may say that in Surah 43:61, Allah said Jesus is the sign of hour. Of course, Jesus is the answer. But, there are passages like Surah 3:140-142, where Allah clearly says he does not know who will enter the garden. Similar verses are there in Surah 5:94, Surah 11:12, Surah. 47:31, Surah. 67:2 Surah. 72:25-28 etc. Question: Why does Allah not know certain things as mentioned in Surah 3:140-142? Now, I said at the beginning -Jesus who is both human and divine. Now let us see how in his humanity Jesus answered this question better. If you look at Matthew 24:1-35, there are three parts to the question. Part 1) Tell us when shall these thing
s happen? Part 2) what shall be the sign of thy coming? Part 3) What shall be the sign of the end of the world? Last part of the question Jesus answered first- when the Gospel shall be preached to the entire world, then shall the end come. For the second part of question Jesus give six signs, false Christ shall be preached, false prophets shall come etc. Now to the first part of question: when shall all these things happen? Jesus answers no one knows the hour. Now, this cannot be applied to the divinity of Jesus. Because immediately Jesus gives four examples and all the examples apply only to human beings. Let us look at them, e.g. 1 in (Matthew 24:37-39) Jesus says during the time Noah’s flood, people did not know, e.g. 2 in (Matthew 24:43) Jesus says the house owner does not know when the thief comes, e.g. 3 in (Matthew 24; 45-51) says wicked servant does not know when master comes and e.g. 4 (Matthew 25:1-12) Jesus says, virgins does not know when the bride groom comes. All these applies to humanity and not to divinity. Did Jesus answer the question? Yes he answered it far far better. Moreover if we look at Mark 2:8, John 16:30-31, John 21:17 and Revelation 2: 18, 23 we will know for certain that Jesus was all knowing in his divinity. Point 13: Should we honor Jesus, just as a prophet or more than a prophet -equal to God? In John 5: 23 Jesus says: “Everyone should honor the Son just as they honor The Father”. Jesus did not say “I only need to be honored like a prophet.” He needs to be honored more than a prophet. Just as you honor the Father, you should honor Jesus. Usually Islamic preachers quote John 16:7 and say Muhammad sahab was prophesized by Jesus. Because in John 16:14 Jesus says the one whom Jesus promised will glorify by the standards of Jesus. Does Muhammad sahab glorify Jesus just as he glorifies God? Therefore Muhammad sahab is NOT the one who promised by Jesus. Point 14: Can God the Father be greater than Jesus and yet Jesus be equal to God the Father? Jesus says yes. Bro. Imran thinks no. Bro. Imran has a question. In his book, page 123 Bro. Imran quoted John 14:28 as a proof against the divinity of Jesus. In John 14: 28 Jesus says "If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I am going to the Father, for my Father is GREATER THAN I". But Bro. Imran fails to note that there can be two kinds of greatness. Greatness in natureGreatness in rank. Man is greater than plants and animals in nature. But Chief Minister is greater to me in rank but not in nature. In fact in Luke 22: 27 Jesus himself says “for who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves”. In Philippians 2:5-11, the inspired apostle says that it is God who became the servant. By quoting Isaiah 45:23 the inspired author confirms that Jesus is identical to Yahweh who became servant. Further Jesus himself testified his exact nature identity to the Father in the very chapter Bro. Imran quoted. In John 14:9 when the disciples asked Jesus show us the Father just as Moses asked God show me your glory (Exo 33:18), Jesus answered “He who has seen me has seen the Father”. This is a claim of exact identity to God which no mere human being can ever make. So is Jesus who is identical God in nature? Yes. But Jesus in humanity is lesser to the Father in rank but not nature. And that is what exactly the prophets has prophesied in Isaiah 53. In fact, it is Bro. Imran who has a ‘greater than God’ problem in the Quran. Yehovah the holy God of Bible swears only by himself. In Hebrews 6:16 The Holy Bible gives the principle that men swears in the name of someone greater than them In Hebrews 6: 13 "Because God could swear by no one greater, He swore by himself. This is further confirmed in Isaiah 45: 23 and Jeremiah 22:5. But we read in Quran more than 30 times Allah swore by different creations- By men in Surah 37:1 By winds in Surah 51:1-4 By stars in Surah 53:1 By Pen in Surah 68:1, By moon in (Surah 74:32-34) etc? If we apply the principle of the Bible, shall we say that Allah is lesser than the creation? Point 15: Did Jesus deny his divinity in Matthew 19: 16-17? No if you read the complete passage. Yes if you read only a part and still pretend that you are an international scholar. Bro. Imran cited Matthew 19: 16-17 in his book Calling to Islam, on page number 123 and said Jesus denied even the remotest suggestion of his divinity. Let us see. In Matthew 19: 16-17: When a young ruler came to Jesus and addressed him as good teacher and asked lord what shall I do to have eternal life? Jesus asked him why do you call Me good? No one is good but one, that is God and commanded him to keep the commandments of God to enter eternal life. Bro. Imran stops there but the story continues. The young ruler asks which of the commandments oh lord. Now, Ten Commandments can be divided into two. First four commandments which relates to God and the next six commandments which relates to man. As an answer to this young ruler, Jesus says the commandments related to human beings and not the first four related to God. And the young ruler says – Master, I have kept all those but there is still something lacking in me. What shall I do? Now instead of saying the first four commandments that is related to God, Jesus says come and follow me. If following Jesus is equal to fulfilling the first four commandments that is related to God, then who is Jesus. Jesus is God. Bro. Imran, this very passage notes that you must follow Jesus to have eternal life and not as you wrongly wrote in your book.
