Muslim apologists have been trying to undermine biblical truths tirelessly and pathetically for quite sometime. In their zeal they employ all kinds of questions that are basically fallacious. Prasanna answers six of those.
Muslim apologists have been trying to undermine biblical truths tirelessly and pathetically for quite sometime. In their zeal they employ all kinds of questions that are basically fallacious. They seem to be willing to go down to any level of dishonesty if they figure out that it will help justify Mohammad and his deity. Here we can see some of the deceptive methods Muslim apologists devised against God’s truth, and how they can be countered logically and scripturally.
Fallacious Tactic #1
Muslim apologists tend to raise the following questions with Christians in order to prove that Jesus is not God. Their questioning goes like this…
1. Can God die? (Muslims assume Christians would say ‘no’)
2. Did Jesus die? (Muslims assume Christians would say ‘yes’)
From the above assumptions they would love to conclude saying, ‘therefore Jesus is not God.’
This may work with unsuspecting or uninformed Christians. But when tried with someone who is well prepared or insightful enough to test the validity of the questions in the argument it simply doesn’t work for Muslim apologists who heavily depend on ignorance and deceptive tactics in persuading the Christians to believe the lies against Jesus’ deity. Let’s see how it can be tackled.
If a Muslim or someone of that mentality comes to ask the question #1 the listener needs to get the clarification about the definition of ‘death’ first. The Christian should ask back for clarification:
What do you mean by ‘death’? Cessation of existence or Separation of the physical body and soul/spirit?
If the Muslim defines ‘death’ as ‘cessation of existence,’ which is unlikely unless he/she agrees with the so-called Jehovah’s Witnesses, then the answer to the first question is definitely ‘no.’ With this definition of ‘death’ the Christian can confidently say ‘no’ even to the question #2. The Bible never defines ‘death’ as cessation of existence. Instead, we see enough evidence in the Bible to the contrary (Lk.16-22-23; Rev.6:9-11). Furthermore, Jesus was in existence even after his ‘last breath’ and ‘giving up his spirit’ on the cross (Jn.2:19-21, 10:17-18; Lk.23:43; Eph.4:8-10; 1Pet.3:18-20). From here the Muslim can get nowhere. He/she cannot reach the point #3, which is his/her illogical conclusion.
If the Muslim defines ‘death’ as ‘separation of physical body and soul/spirit,’ as Islamic theology teaches, then the question #1 turns out to be an irrelevant and illogical question. God in his eternal existence does not possess a physical body. Raising a question like ‘Can God die (be separated from his physical body)?’ would only prove that the questioner is either a fool or out of his/her mind (Of course, Muslim apologists fit into one of these two categories very well). It is like asking about a person who never married, ‘Can he stop beating his wife?’
Fallacious Tactic #2
Muslim apologists have come with the ‘ultimate question’ of their standard as a result of their insatiable tendency to quiz Christians about the belief in the deity of Christ.
Here it is:
Where did Jesus himself say ‘I am God’ in the Bible? (If he himself did not say that why do Christians believe that Jesus is God and worship him?).
At the first sight the question might make sense to the reader. But if we analyze it carefully it becomes apparent that the question has been formed on shallow reasoning. One need not depend solely on a person’s own claim or disclaim or even silence to determine that person’s identity.
(1) Muslims believe that Jesus is…
a Man
a Prophet
the Messiah
(2) Christians believe that Jesus is…
a Man
a Prophet
the Messiah
the Son of God
the Lord
God
All of them are true. However, none of them were directly claimed by Jesus. It is true that Jesus himself did not say ‘I am the Messiah’, ‘I am the Lord’ etc. Muslims believe that Jesus is a ‘man,’ a ‘prophet,’ and the ‘Messiah’ not because Jesus himself claimed them, but because the Quran says so. In the same way, Christians believe that Jesus is a ‘man,’ a ‘prophet,’ the ‘Messiah,’ the ‘Son of God,’ the ‘Lord,’ and ‘God’ not because Jesus himself claimed them directly (he did that indirectly), but because the Bible says so.
If the Muslim insists the Christian on answering the following questions:
Do you believe that Jesus is God?
If so, where in the Bible did Jesus himself say ‘I am God’?
Christian should insist the Muslim on first answering these questions:
Do you believe that Jesus is the Messiah?
If so, where in the Quran did Jesus himself say ‘I am the Messiah’?
If the Muslim cannot answer the question yet wants to know the answer to his/her question, he/she is only demonstrating to the world that he/she is a big hypocrite and cannot even think logically and consistently.
There is enough evidence in the Bible that enables us to safely infer that Jesus is God beyond any shadow of doubt. The evidence can broadly be divided into the following three categories:
1. Testimony of the prophets/apostles (Acts 20:28; Rom.9:4-5; Tit.2:13; Phil.2:5-7)
2. Jesus’ own indirect claims (by using God’s name: Jn.8:58-59; 18:3-13=Ex.3:14; by claiming equality with God: Jn.10:30-31; 14:9; by accepting worship: Matt.14:33, 15:25, 28:9,17; Lk.17:16; Jn.9:38; Heb.1:6; Rev.5:8-14, 7:9-12 cf.Matt.4:10; Acts 10:25-26; Rev.18:21, 19:10, 22:8-9)
3. Testimony of the Father (Heb.1:8)
Fallacious Tactic #3
Muslim apologists employ inconsistent approaches to understand God. On one had they believe and assert that God is unknown or beyond our understanding and definition, and on the other hand they demand Christians to make God understandable to them. Muslims have hard time to comprehend the definition of ‘Trinity,’ which is the Biblical concept of God. As a result of this they blindly try to attack the concept of ‘Trinity’ without even knowing what they are trying to debunk. In this childish effort they can come up with endless questions regarding this doctrine of the Bible. One of the most frequent arguments Muslim apologists use against ‘Trinity’ is as follows:
1. Does God know everything? (answer is ‘yes’)2. Did Jesus say that he doesn’t know the hour of his coming? (answer is ‘yes’)
Therefore, they conclude, that Jesus is not God.
God knows everything not because he ‘came to know’ them. He knows everything because it is he who caused or predestined or allowed them to occur/exist. Regarding the hour of his coming, Jesus says, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matt.24:36).
1. In the above Jesus’ statement there is a reference to three distinct categories of beings, namely, human beings, angels and God.
2. Jesus did not categorize the ‘Son’ as human being (‘no one knows’ includes all human beings), rather he distinguished the ‘Son’ from human beings by placing him in a different category other than human beings.
3. Jesus distinguished the ‘Son’ even from the category of the angels because the ‘Son’ is not even a part of the angels.
4. The ‘Son’ is a part of the ‘Godhead,’ however, within the Godhead the ‘Son’ is distinguished from the ‘Father.’ This is clearly maintained in Jesus’ statement.
5. In the above statement instead of using the generic term ‘God,’ which refers to both the Father and the Son, Jesus used the term ‘Father’ selectively in order to refer only to the first person of Godhead in this context.
6. The verb ‘to know’ means to receive information about something. With reference to God the verb ‘to know’ does not connote this same lexical meaning simply because God does not ‘come to know’ things. Either he knows things as the cause of their occurrence or as the one who ordains them for the future or as the one who permits them come to pass.
7. In the light of the above facts, the phrase ‘only the Father knows’ is tantamount to admit that only the first person of Godhead, i.e. The Father, has the prerogative to ordain the ‘hour,’ but not the Son. The difference between the ‘Son’ and the ‘Father’ is not in knowledge but in function.
In short what Jesus is saying in the above statement is not that he cannot ‘come to know’ the hour, rather he is implying to his listeners that not he but the Father is the one who ‘decides’ or ‘causes’ it to occur. This does not make Jesus less than God, but only different from the Father.
Fallacious Tactic #4
Another Biblical doctrine that completely baffles Muslims is the ‘incarnation.’
Exposing their ignorance Muslim apologists ask questions like these:
Can God pray to himself? (assumed answer is ‘no’)
Did Jesus pray to God? (assumed answer is ‘yes’)
Therefore, Jesus is not God. (Muslim apologist’s conclusion)
Here Muslim apologist exposes two of his/her common traits, namely, hypocrisy and irrationality. Let’s see how these are playing out in this particular tactic.
The first sura in the Quran, Fatiha, is a prayer to God. Muslims believe that the entire Quran is spoken by God. If that is true then the first prayer in Sura Fatiha is a prayer by God to God! Yet, Muslim apologists hypocritically ask Christians the first question.
How to understand Jesus’ prayer to God? It is both logical as well as commonsensical to see Jesus praying to God. Jesus, the Son, is a part of the Godhead. He is God the Son, but not God the Father. In addition to this, Jesus had taken human form and nature as a part of his incarnation. Therefore, God the Son as human being is praying to God the Father. When Muslim apologist fails to recognize these truths he/she only exposes his/her ignorance in this matter.
If any Muslim asks the question, “Can God pray to himself?” Christian should respond to that by giving this counter question, “Yeah, that’s interesting. What do YOU think?” The Muslim will be more than happy to furnish the answer as ‘no’ to the question. At which point the Christian should immediately ask the Muslim, “if that is true, how come your God prayed to himself in the first sura of the Quran?” It would be very interesting and entertaining to watch and see how the Muslim tries to get out of this pit he/she himself/herself dug.
Fallacious Tactic #5
In their zeal to prove Christians wrong in believing that God is ‘Trinity’ Muslim apologists use questions like this:
Is God one or many? (assumed answer is ‘one’)
Are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ‘one’ or ‘three’? (assumed answer is ‘three’)
Therefore, Muslims love to conclude, Christians’ belief in ‘Trinity’ is wrong.
Christians should respond to this kind of shallow reasoning cautiously. Christian can respond in the following way:
Muslim: Is God one or many?
Christian: Well, I want to say ‘one,’ but first let me know, what you exactly mean by one?
If the Muslim can’t get it, say something like this…
Christian: For example, I am one and you are one; Is that what you mean when you say God is one?
Muslim: (It is unlikely that Muslim agrees to this. In all probability he/she will try to prove to Christian that ‘God is one’ is incomparable to ‘man is one.’ By chance, if the Muslim says yes, which is unimaginable, Christian should help him/her to realize by that he/she is equating God to man!)
Christian: Do you agree that God’s oneness and man’s oneness are different?
Muslim: (must agree to this, willingly or unwillingly)
Christian: If you agree to this fact then I can easily say that God is one.
Muslim: Are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ‘one’ or ‘three’?
Christian: One!
Muslim: How can it be? It’s poor mathematics!
Christian: No it is not. Please listen to this! I am one, you are one and my friend is also one. If we add these numbers we will get three. Likewise, in the case of God the Father is one, the Son is one and the Holy Spirit is one. However, if you add these numbers you still get one. This is simply because our ‘one’ is a mathematical unit, whereas God’s ‘one’ is infinitely different to our ‘one.’ God is infinite. If you add or subtract or multiply or divide an ‘infinity’ you still get ‘infinity.’ That’s what God is!
If the Muslim cannot understand this leave him/her until he/she grows up enough to understand this reasoning.
Fallacious Tactic #6
Muslims in general tend to ask very childish questions about Jesus being God’s Son without realizing the imbecility in their disbelief. Here is an example of that sort. Muslims ask Christians:
Does God have a wife? (Christian’s answer is ‘no’)
If God doesn’t have a wife how can you say that Jesus is God’s son? (implying the Biblical teaching “Jesus is God’s son” is wrong)
It is both pathetic and tiring to hear the second question, either in the form of a question or in the form of a statement of disbelief, again and again from the lips of our Muslim friends.
In this context Christians should ask Muslims the following questions:
Can Allah have a wife? (Muslim’s answer is ‘no’)
Is it possible for Allah to have a son without a wife? (yes/no)
If the answer is ‘
yes,’ then that’s all what Christians too believe. But if the answer is ‘no’ then Muslims should answer this question:
If you say that Allah cannot have a son without a wife, why does Allah say in the Quran (39:4) that it is possible for him to have a son without a wife?
It would be interesting to watch him/her trying to justify or clarify his/her ‘no.’
Thankfully, not all Muslims are foolish enough to ask questions like these. I have personally met Muslims who are wise, open, willing to and capable of engaging in meaningful dialogues in order to know the truth of God. Some of them have found it! God gave this promise, “Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you.”
{moscomment}
1. if the connection between Qurán3.55 and the christian dominance was true,the entire muslim world today should have accepted chirstanity!!!why?? look at history-the world’s greatest wars ,WW1&2 were started and raged by christians to gain world dominance.
2. islam is the only religion that makes it compulsory to believe in Jesus Christ!!
3.no where does Jesus Christ,as per the Bible(which again was not written or compiled in front of him), EXPLICITLY says : I am God or worship me.
4.even in Matthew 22: 41-46,Jesus Christ could have corrected them in clear speech as to who his ‘father’ is.
5.just because the christiandom comes up with some vague,indirect & hallucinatory interpretations to what they claim as Jesus’s speech,does’nt justify so-called trinity.
6. What need can you fathom that can be attributed to God for creating such a confusing concept of Trinity to be able to capture the intellect of man.ie.1+1+1 is not=3?????
Men understand through plain logic,not through vague connotations.
It is baseless to comment until u people be honest in the field. Be honest u quote one verse quran 39:4 like this “it is possible for him to have a son without a wife? ” but quran 39:4 is this”Had Allah willed to take son, He would have chosen anyone He please out of his ceation.”
Understand the difference, where come “wife” and “without wife”.
Thahasil- you seems to have missed the point by a mile which the author of this article is trying to make.
The author is trying to argue against the limited biological sense by which the Muslims always argue. If the word ‘Son’ can have more than one meaning as this quranic verse seems to imply, then the Quranic objection against the Christ as the Son of God is gone.
Now, for arguments sake, we grant that the author of this article misunderstoond he is only a mere human and not a prophet and of course not God.
But what about your so-called prophet and so-called god Allah who were dishonest when they misrepresented the Trinity?
Quran 5.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
PICKTHAL: And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?
SHAKIR: And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
Where come Mary in the Trinity?
Where come allah in the Trinity?
Humans can err. But God???
Where did Allah say that He is discussing regarding trinity in this verse and trinity includes Mary. This scene is that of the Hereafter where Jesus was presented the condition and beliefs of people (on the name of Jesus) that they even did not mind to elevate Jesus and even Mary to the level of God besides God. Regarding Jesus you would be sure but what about Mary? Yes there are many who have such beliefs you just click this link you will get the answer.
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/omnip.htm
And surely God knows every thing and he cannot err, but certainly, Mr. Prasanna can do and many a times intentionally; first wrong translation of Quran 39: 4 and then misinterpretation (rather mispresentation) of this verse and also of Quran 5:116. This is called as HYPOCRISY.
I think Mr. Prasanna got clean bold!
Amina, stop yourself of being deceived by Zakir Naik. All of his false claims and discoveries have been answered.
look at history-the world’s greatest wars ,WW1&2 were started and raged by christians to gain world dominance.
Show us proofs from the gospel where did Lord Jesus commanded his followers to Kill the ones who don’t accept HIM as Savior. In modern context during the world wars, show us from where the power hungry got influenced, did Jesus convinced them to kill?
Now coming back to the Islamic Caliphate of Turkey or the Ottoman Empire. Who also took part in that war. Even muslims form the great Indian sub continent took part in this war. Remember the Khilafat Movement of 1921 Indian Khilafatists who had been campaigning on behalf of Turkey and Khilafat.
I can show you many examples before 2009 and current events. Where Muslim clearly say Islam, muhammad and Quran has guided them to take up war. If innocent are killed in this war pray to allah to grant them paradise. Hope you are aware of the Islamic Janat.
2. islam is the only religion that makes it compulsory to believe in Jesus Christ!!
Also Baha’ism makes a compulsion to believe in Jesus Christ as one of the Prophets.
Ramakrishna mission believed that Jesus was an Incarnation of God.
Also the ISKCON believe that Jesus was one of the avatar of Krishna
Also the Tibetans Buddhist believes that Jesus is bodhisattva re incarnation of Buddha.
Even the Great Emperor Akbar according to his new Religion Din E ilahi believed Jesus as on the prophet.
3.no where does Jesus Christ,as per the Bible(which again was not written or compiled in front of him), EXPLICITLY says : I am God or worship me.
Please show us one verse from the Gospel Where did Jesus Christ said in unequivocal statement I AM not GOD and do not worship ME.
Also show us the Same from Muhammad’s inspirational Quran, Where did Jesus Christ said in unequivocal statement I am God or worship me or I AM not GOD and do not worship ME.
4.even in Matthew 22: 41-46,Jesus Christ could have corrected them in clear speech as to who his ‘father’ is.
There are people like Wahabbi Muslims even during the time of Lord Jesus Christ. Who did not appreciate thing explained in clear statement.
In order to understand this conversation between Jesus and the Pharisees, it is important to know that Many Jewish scholars in Jesus’ day regarded Psalm 110 to be Messianic; this question is for them. So, to know the words of King David in Psalms 110:1 1 The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” Jesus asks in verse Matthew 22:45, “If David then calls him Lord, how is he his son?” This sums up the scriptural dilemma faced by those Pharisees. How could the Messiah be the descendant of King David and be his “Lord” at the same time? The answer: It’s a supernatural act of God fulfilled in Jesus himself. And that put a stop to the questions.
5.just because the christiandom comes up with some vague,indirect & hallucinatory interpretations to what they claim as Jesus’s speech,does’nt justify so-called trinity.
Water + Ice + Vapour = H2O
We do not count God in numbers, like muslims ONE god, rather we believe in the oneness of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
“he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my Son, whom I love and with him I am well pleased’” (Matt. 3:16-17). The Father’s voice sounded from above and affirmed the Sonship of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit descended on him and empowered him.
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” … (Matt 28:18-19).
6. What need can you fathom that can be attributed to God for creating such a confusing concept of Trinity to be able to capture the intellect of man.ie.1+1+1 is not=3?????
First, multiplication works better with integers:
1 x 1 x 1 = 1.
Second, the exponent comes out the same:
13 = 1
Third, how about an infinite number of sets of things? This works better:
Infinity + infinity + infinity = infinity.
God exists in three persons who share the same essence or being. this means is that God exists in the distinct and co-equal persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, indivisible
7. Men understand through plain logic,not through vague connotations.
To believe in God because it is logical or have faith as logic supports it. This act is itself illogical God is above all Logic. Till date we are not able to explain the Universe, which is still so mysterious then someone come to a conclusion about nature of God.
We Christians believe that God is knowable as far as he has revealed himself through Jesus Christ, the Scriptures, and the Holy Spirit who lives in us, and other avenues like the creation. However, we also believe that God in his pure essence is unknowable. No one has seen God in all of his splendor and glory. We humans down here on earth are limited by our five senses and our finite minds, which process the data taken in by our five senses and somehow reformulate them into ideas. For centuries philosophers have been debating each other over how the mind works. So how can the human mind figure out and calculate the pure nature of God? Given God’s infinite greatness and ultimate unknowability, and given the finiteness of our five senses and the limits of our minds, it stands to reason, therefore, that some ideas about God are perplexing and unsolvable.
This website is useful and we are knowing the truth to the core.
GOD bless you all more.
Thank You once again.
1. Regarding World war and Christians:
In the World War I, Turkey supported Germany , but no other Muslim country, even Turkish strong hold Saudi Arabia did not support Turkey in this misadventure(leave aside Indian Muslims). Even though Turkey was a sideline supporting player of this world war game, but at the end, Turkey was the biggest loser, as the suffering is still echoing in the Middle-east in the form of Israel. Christendom got rid of their massive Jewish nuisance and imposed them on the Muslims. So, to say that Indian Muslims took part in this war is childish and need study of historical facts. As far as Khilafat is concerned, Muslims love this concept and Christians inspired by this concept, which can be seen in practical (nascent) form in the form of Europe, UN, Pope. After the World War, when turkey was being made in to pieces, Muslims started Khilafat movement, so that khilafat system can be reestablished from this remnant form and you know Gandhi Ji supported that movement, while Jinnah did not. So according to You, Our Mahatma Gandhi took part in that World War. Khilafat in absolute form (somewhat) was last seen during the time of Abdul Hamid II i.e. long before World war.
I agree with you that there are Muslims who claim their deed to be motivated by Quran & Sunnah. It is something similar to, Pope giving certificate of paradise to Crusaders. When Pope did this, that was never meant that Christ wanted that way. Then, how come actions of ordinary Muslims become so significant? Amazing!
Hope you are aware of Christian crusade.
2. Compulsion to believe in Jesus (pbuh)in Islam.
It is COMPULSORY TO BELIEVE BY EVERYBODY of particular religion is different from BELIEVED BY SOMEBODY or some sect.
For Muslims, if one doesn’t believe Jesus (pbuh) to be prophet of God and differentiate him out, he is not a Muslim QURAN:Ch2:136 – Say ye: “WE BELIEVE in GOD, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishamel, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and JESUS, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ONE AND ANOTHER OF THEM: and to Him we have submitted.”
So, it is a compulsion. But if in Ramakrishna mission, followers don’t believe, they will not be out of mission. Similarly, it is not at all a compulsion in Hinduism (ISKCON) or Buddhism (Tibetan). Amazingly majority of the followers even don’t know, leave aside believing In Jesus. There may be few with such beliefs, but that does not make it to be tenet of faith. You know there are certain Muslims who believe that Rama and Krishna might be prophets of God. But, this does not mean that this is a compulsory belief in Islam. Din e lahi of Akbar was tried as sect from Islam which doesn’t exist and Bahaism is a perverted sect of Shia Muslims. It is really great to see that even sect of Muslims make it compulsory to believe in Jesus (pbuh), leave aside the mainstream Muslims.
3. Regarding explicit statement asking where Jesus said, “I am God or worship me.”
Please show one verse from the bible where Judas the Iscariot said I AM not GOD and do not worship ME. OH sorry, but Judas was not son of God either. So, I change my question, Please show one verse from the bible where Jacob (Israel ) said I AM not GOD and do not worship ME. (Yes Israel was son of God see this verse of Exodus 4:22 –“ And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn”).
Not only that, it is condemned worshipping Jesus by himself in Bible see Matthew 15:9- “BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.” Brother, you need to read Bible properly with open eyes and read them as it reads before losing nerves.
Now regarding the word of God i.e. Quran. I think, brother did not read even the comments before on this page. It is clearly mentioned beautifully (Quran 5:116 ) that When God will ask Jesus in the hereafter regarding Jesus himself that did he ask to worship himself (of course along with his mother as some sects do), then he will refute. So, Jesus (pbuh) told in Quran in this verse that he told not to worship him.
Surely brother, God explained clearly his message in Bible and in Quran. Surely, God is not the author of confusion.
4. Regarding Matthew 22:41-46.
What brother is saying to be a “clear statement”, is actually one of the most confusing statement in the Bible. Anybody who tries to read and understand this will have to read again and again and still, will not be able to understand, unless you attribute this to supernatural act of God and leave your logic and sense aside. Why? Because Jesus is called as son of David in many many verses of Bible(starting from very first verse of New Testament)and at the same time he is supposed to be ”Lord” (i.e. second “Lord” of Psalm 110:1). And Jesus is asking question that then how come David calls him (Jesus i.e. son) as “Lord”? Then no further explanation given and only confusion which was tried to be solved by attributing it to supernatural act, because logic and sense fails to correlate both together. Actually Jesus made clear that this is not possible that I can be “Lord” of Psalm 110:1. Now, we will see this verse in detail and problems in it.
Matthew22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. 43He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
[Similar message in other gospels also and this story is related to David in old testament i.e psalm 110:1, when David had vision of his lord in the spirit (not body ) and God, where God is promising his lord (some human authority, as explained later) for clearing his way before he goes in to the world in body form. ]
Actually this confusion is through editing and mistranslation. There are two main problems:
a) Second lord of Matthew22: 44 is written as Lord that means God (because of capital “L” in Lord).
b) Further explanation of this verse is deleted from the Bible.
Now we will see in detail and with clear logic and sense, the whole story will be REAL CLEAR, not left to supernatural act to understand this.
a. Second “lord” of Psalm 110:1 is mistranslated as “Lord “with capital L, means God. Actually lord word can be used for both God and others like human or angels with higher authority , but in Hebrew there is a difference. When indicated for God the word for lord is “adonai” and when for others it is written as “adoni”. And here in Psalm 110:1 it is written as “adoni” not “adonai”. So, it indicates some human or person of higher authority but never for God.
[The following 148 verses contain 166 uses of the word (adoni) and every one of them either refers to a human lord or an angel. None refers to God: Gen. 23:6, 11,15; 24:12(2x), 14, 18, 27(3x), 35, 36, 37, 39, 42, 44, 48(2x), 49, 65; 31:35; 33:8, 13, 14(2x), 15; 39:8; 42:10; 43:20; 44:5, 7, 18(2x), 19, 20, 22, 24; 47:18(2x), 25; Exod. 21:5; 32:22; Num. 11:28; 12:11; 32:25, 27; 36:2; Josh. 5:14; 10:1, 3; Judg. 1:5, 6, 7; 4:18; 6:13; Ruth 2:13; 1 Sam. 1:15, 26(2x); 22:12; 24:8; 25:24, 25(2x), 26(2x), 27, 28, 29, 31, 41; 26:17, 18,19; 29:8; 30:13, 15; 2 Sam. 1:10; 3:21; 9:11; 11:11; 13:32, 33; 14:9, 12, 15, 17(2x), 18,19(2x), 22; 15:15, 21(2x); 16:4, 9; 18:31, 32; 19:19(2x), 20, 26, 27, 30, 35, 37; 24:3, 21, 22; 1 Kings 1:13, 17, 18, 20(2x), 21,24, 27(2x), 31, 36, 37(2x); 2:38; 3:17, 26; 18:7, 10; 20:4; 2 Kings 2:19; 4:16, 28; 5:3, 18, 20, 22; 6:5, 12, 15, 26; 8:5, 12; 10:9; 18:23, 24, 27; 1 Chron. 21:3(2x), 23; 2 Chron. 2:14, 15; Isa. 36:8, 9, 12; Jer. 37:20; 38:9; Dan. 1:10; 10:16, 17(2x), 19; 12:8; Zech. 1:9; 4:4, 5, 13; 6:4.
The following 24 uses can be found under [l’adoni], “to my Lord.” While we in English separate the preposition from the noun or verb following, in Hebrew the preposition is attached directly to the word. Gen. 24:3,54,56; 32:5,6,19; 44:9,16,33; 1 Sam. 24:7; 25:27,28,30,31; 2 Sam. 4:8; 19:29; 1 Kings. 1:2; 18:13; 20:9; 1 Chron. 21:3; Ps. 110:1. All these refer to human lords, not God.
The following 6 references can be found under [v’adoni]: Gen. 18:12; Num. 36:2; 2 Sam. 11:11; 14:20; 19:28; 24:3.
The following reference can be found under [m_adoni]: Gen. 47:18.]
So, this is “lord” not “Lord” and this does not denote God at all but some human being of higher authority.
b. As we have seen that Jesus was son of David. Because, in the genealogy of Jesus from Abraham’s line though Isaac, David comes as prominent personality as his forefather. So when Pharisees asked regarding the Lord (second) of Psalm 110:1, whether Jesus Christ was the same lord? Then Christ disapproved this by saying if He was the lord then how will David call him lord because He (Christ ) is son of David (in genealogy). It is not appropriate that David (being father in genealogy ) will call him (son in genealogy) as lord. So Jesus actually told that he was not that “lord” of Psalm 110:1. And He might have explained further regarding that “lord” of Psalm 110:1, which missed in Gospels present now. We know well regarding Bible’s history of addition and deletion of verses and even books with many different versions (many of them, you can get even from a single shop). There is one supposed to be apocryphal Gospel which has been deleted from present day Bible called as Gospel of Barnabas. It has further explanation given about that “lord” of Psalm 110:1 and He was from line of Ishamel and not Isaac, so not the son of David i.e. can’t be Jesus. (Gospel of Barnabas: chapter 43 last paragraph. This gospel can be downloaded through link below)
http://barnabas.net/barnabas.doc
And there is no prize for guessing ,who could be this “lord” from line of Ishamel . Of course this denotes no other than Mohammad (pbuh). We Muslims don’t believe in any of gospels present now to be totally from God but there are verses from God in them, which is still preserved with wisdom, like removal of confusion and guidance. I quoted this verse because it seems to be more sensible and logic and explains everything clearly.
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5. Regarding Justification of Trinity.
a) Water +Ice+ Vapour = H2O
It is better to write, Water (H2O) +Ice(H2O) + Vapour (H2O) = 3(H2O)
b) Yes, you do not count God in numbers and for you probably 3 (of trinity) is not a number. So you count like this 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7,…. Isn’t it? Amazing!
But God of Christendom counts himself as one, just like as that of Islam and Judaism.
Deutronomy 6:4- Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
Mark 12:29- And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Isiah45:18- ……. : I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.
c) Matthew 3:16-17. So, Jesus was God because he was filled with holy spirit. Great logic!
So, what about others who were also filled with holy spirit.e.g
Barnabas- Acts 11:24-For he(Barnabas) was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost….
John the Baptist- Luke1:15-… and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.
And many others e.g. Acts 6:5; Luke 1:41 etc
d) Matthew 28:18-19. So, if somebody remembers three persons during an act, then these three persons become one. Great!
6. Regarding 1+1+1 is not=3????
a. So, 1x1x1=1
According to you, if we want to know the totality or sum we can multiply also. Great concept?
Suppose one person gives you Rupees one lakh on first visit, then one lakh on second visit, then one lakh on third visit. So when it comes to returning, you will give him one lakh, according to your method of totality, as 1x1x1=1. Great?
Or, suppose if he gives one lakh on first visit, then zero amount on second visit, then one lakh on third visit. So when it comes to returning, you will give him Zero. Because 1x0x1=0.
Poor fellow would have never imagined such supernatural mathematics.
Brother think twice before saying a thing, everything is not according to your intellect. There are certain rules, sense and logic.
b. you mean Father was an infinity, Jesus was an infinity and Holy Ghost was an infinity.
What do you mean by infinity?
According to Oxford dictionary: the attribute of being infinite and thing can be infinite in extent, amount or number or duration etc. So what do you mean by infinity here?
Infinite in size: Jesus was of size of normal human being accommodated on cross. So, Jesus not an infinity according to extent or size.
Infinite in number : The LORD our God [is] one LORD. So Father was not infinity according to numbers.
Infinite in knowledge: Jesus didn’t know everything (Mark13:32- But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the Father)
So, Jesus was not an infinity according to knowledge.
Infinite in time: Jesus had a beginning from Mary’s womb. So, Jesus was not infinity according to time.
So, what type of infinity is that? Supernatural act?
Suppose in whatever the supernatural way these were infinity, but you agree, (as you mentioned ) that they were three persons. Suppose you have infinite sand grains and infinite water droplets and infinite sugar grains; that means they all become one and lose their personality only because their attribute is infinite. Great logic! something supernatural?
Surely, God is not the author of confusion.
7. Regarding using vague connotation instead of plain logic.
Understanding of men falls in 3 categories:
1. Known things – by logic and sense e.g. different fields of science like elements, medicines etc.
2. Not yet known things – but there are chances that we can know them by our logic and senses (and of course by God’ wish) e.g. further advances of science etc.
3. Can never be known exactly – impossible to know them e.g. many incidents of ancient periods for which there is no proof to verify etc.
Most of the things of universe fall in first two categories. So, if we don’t know a thing that does not mean that we will never be able to know it (Catg.3) rather it is most of the times belongs to 2nd category i.e. we may know in future.
Now, regarding God:
This understanding belongs to 1st and 3rd categories.
1st category: Known thing about God which God explained to us in simple and logical way through His prophets(including Jesus pbuh) and scriptures e.g. Different attributes of God. 99 of them mentioned in Quran and most of them mentioned in other books e.g. God is one, He is most merciful, All-knowing etc. And He is perfect in all his attributes.
3rd category: All that is not mentioned by God regarding Himself through His prophets and scriptures. Or, What God told specifically about that we can never know e.g. God’s exact detail, His image etc.
We love to accept things of first category, while we strongly condemn things of third category being presented as those of first category or vice versa, using vague connotations. E.g. 1st category : “God is one” as mentioned in Bible and in All other major religious scriptures. But if somebody says He is three or ten or lakh and try to make a thing of 3rd category by vague connotations and illogical logic even though it is clearly a matter of 1st category, then we object. This is what has been tried by our brother to whom I am replying.
So, in short all those things which God has explained in clear and logical way, we should accept that. Please don’t create confusion and if somebody does so then use your intellect and prove them before accepting it illogically because this is what your Bible says:
Bible: I Thessalonians 5:21 – Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
So if God has explained any thing plainly then it should be understood in that way. Because God is not the author of confusion.
Bible: I Corinthians 14:33 – For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
So God is telling plainly in Bible; Book of Isiah Ch:45 verse 18
……. : I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.
Similar message in Quran La ilaha illallah
There is one God (Allah), and none else .
You accept this, your half shahadah is done.
I pray Allah to guide you and me to the Truth.
And say: “Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish.(” Holy Qur’an [17:81])
The Mission of Jesus Christ (pbuh) – to Fulfill the Law
Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity for himself. He clearly announced the nature of his mission. Jesus (pbuh) was sent by God to confirm the previous Judaic law. This is clearly evident in the following statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in the Gospel of Mathew:
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
“For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
[The Bible, Mathew 5:17-20]
Dear Muslim,
There is a world of difference between the mission of the Lord Jesus Christ and Muhammad. You can compare that yourself and find the ‘Truth’ that takes you to heaven and God.
The Mission of the Lord Jesus Christ:
I. To save the sinners
“And she will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins.” (Matt.1:21)
“For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” (Lk.19:10)
“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.” (Jn.10:11)
“The next day he (John) saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (Jn.1:29)
“For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.”(1Tim.2:5-6)
II. To save from the Law, which was brought by Moses, and give us a New Law—“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” (John 13:34)
“For not the hearers of the Law are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.” (Rom.2:13)
In order to be come righteous how much of the Law needs to be followed?
“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” (Jam.2:10)
“Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in God’s sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.” (Rom.3:20)
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.” (Matt.5:17)
“For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” (Rom.10:4)
III. To take us to the Father (God) in heaven:
“Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also…I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.” John 14:1-6)
The self proclaimed prophet Mohammad’s mission:
To be a messenger, but not an advocate
“Or, thou have a house of gold or thou ascend up into heaven; and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a Book that we can read.’ Say, `Holy is my Lord! I am but a mortal sent as a Messenger.” (Sura 17:93)
“Those who set up other lords beside Him, GOD is the One in charge of them; you are not their advocate.” (Sura 42:6)
“Your Lord knows you best. According to His knowledge, He may shower you with mercy, or He may requite you. We did not send you to be their advocate.” (Sura 17:54)
Doesn’t even know what would happen to him or his followers (Muslims)
“Say, ‘I am not different from other messengers. I have no idea what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is revealed to me. I am no more than a profound warner.’” (Sura 46:9)
Jesus warned of the so-called prophets like Muhammad, “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” (Matt.15:14)
From the Fallacious Tactic #5
“………
…………………….
…………………..
Christian: If you agree to this fact then I can easily say that God is one.
Muslim: Are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ‘one’ or ‘three’?
Christian: One!
Muslim: How can it be? It’s poor mathematics!
Christian: No it is not. Please listen to this! I am one, you are one and my friend is also one. If we add these numbers we will get three. Likewise, in the case of God the Father is one, the Son is one and the Holy Spirit is one. However, if you add these numbers you still get one. This is simply because our ‘one’ is a mathematical unit, whereas God’s ‘one’ is infinitely different to our ‘one.’ God is infinite. If you add or subtract or multiply or divide an ‘infinity’ you still get ‘infinity.’ That’s what God is!
If the Muslim cannot understand this leave him/her until he/she grows up enough to understand this reasoning.
“
quran says there is no GOD but only one GOD.
JESUS(P.B.U.H)’s sayings from the bible show us that there is only one god.
>>>1 god means…god is unique
>>>1+1+1=3 and not equal to 1
>>>christians says “god is infinitely different to one…
because adding or subtracting or multiplying on infinity gives infinity..”
wat it says
-god is one..
but infinity not equal to 1 and u have to believe infinity as one as per christianity .and not as per maths.
-and this implies..christians divided god into three. i.e..
two things we can conclude.
1]
-jesus=1/3 of god.
-father=1/3 of god.
-Holy Spirit=1/3 of god
jesus+father+Holy Spirit=
1/3 of god+
1/3 of god+
1/3 of god=god=1.
2]jesus=1
father=1
Holy Spirit=1
and jesus+father+Holy Spirit = special one=god is infinite (infinitely different from one)
frome these 2 conditions
1st condition is division of god to three.
2nd condition is making the god infinite from three.
this is polythiesm…=trinity
trinity not equal to mono thiesm
equal to hinduism…
they too believe there is only one god ..and they beliave that… in different places at different times god comes as avatars…
adam,noah,…,moses,abraham,david,lot,..solomon,issac,joseph,..,jacob,zechariya..,jesus,
muhammed (peace be upon with all these prophetes)and all other prophets came for saying the truth that there is no god but one GOD.and humans should pray to him only.
islam says allah(means the god in arabic) as creator of evrything.
note the point that ..allah is not meant for muslim’s god but god of all.
means the creator,..as same as in bible for god.
GOD cannot be like parts..
i.e..we can pray to jesus..sometimes to holy sprit..or father….
this is illogical…
jesus(p.b.uh) came to israelites to say the truth that god is only one…no other god exists
Fawaz’s posting shows that he is the classical example of a typical Muslim that the author of this article is trying to aim at with his rebuttals.
He is trying to prove that his god, the Islamic Allah, is a mathematical ‘1’ which is less than any other number. Even Mr. Fawaz is also ‘1’. Since both are ‘1’ (one) does that mean Fawaz and Allah are equal?!
As the author suggests let us leave Fawaz until he grows enough to understand at least the terms that are used to define the holy ‘Trinity.’
There is a world of difference between the perception of Christians (so called) and Muslims when it comes to the religion. You can compare yourself in this article (of a Muslim) having similar quotations (except for the few missings in your article) and from the same sources i.e. The Bible and The Quran. And you can find out the Truth in its real clear form.
You presented regarding mission of Jesus (pbuh) and Mohammad (pbuh) according to your perception and misinterpretation. So, in short according to you, mission of Jesus was: To save the sinner, To break the law of Moses and bring the new law, And To take us to the father in heaven. Actually the last one is the same as the first one because it is the end result of saving of sinner i.e. to reach the father in heaven.
So , according to Christians
(to revise), the whole mission of Jesus (pbuh) was mainly two:
a. To save the sinner and take him to Heaven.
b. To break the law of Moses and bring a new law.
And the mission of Mohammad (pbuh) was:
a. Prophet (and according to you “self proclaimed” but no quotations)
b. Like other messengers, a Warner (Quran 46:9 as you quoted)
c. Man with many limitations i.e.
i. Not having knowledge of everything
ii. Not having authority to advocate on Peoples’ behalf.
Now, according to Muslims.
For every community and every time there was Prophet from human being, approved by God for conveying His guidance to human beings (Quran 16:36) and when human perception reached a level that religion had to be finalized, then prophet Mohammad (pbuh) came (Quran 5:3). Now in short we will see what does the word “Prophet” means in Islam.
So, Prophet usually had following characteristics (according to Muslims):
a. They were HUMAN BEING, APPROVED by GOD for guiding people.
b. They were the LINK for their people to the God. And anybody who believed them and got guided was salvated (saved). So prophet’s duty was to save the people and take them to heaven (of course, through belief and righteous deed as guided by prophet).
c. They had MIRACLES (which God did through them), so that people had ease in believing.
d. They were OF BEST CHARACTERS and they submitted their will to God (literally MUSLIM).
Now, we will see both Jesus (pbuh) and Mohammad (pbuh) and their mission. I will be dealing with only those points which you mentioned, but in non biased way giving few more quotations which you intentionally missed.
1. Jesus’ (pbuh) mission of saving people and taking to heaven:
As you quoted Matthew 1:21 and Luke 19:20 and we agree with you.
But how? For this you quoted John 10:11, John 11:29 and 1Timothy 2:5-6 i.e. by giving his life as sacrifice for other’s sin and we Muslims strongly object this. Actually this is due to misinterpretation, mispresentation, and insinuation in the scripture which is strengthened by Paul’s letters in Bible and some confusion created in Gospel of John (the last Gospel to be written well after 100 years of departure of Jesus (pbuh) and by that time Paul’s theory of resurrection and atonement had well established & that is the reason this Gospel is not in Synoptic). Now we will cross-examine this from other parts of Bible to prove their authenticity.
“Mark 4:11 ……. all [these] things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND [THEIR] SINS SHOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM.”
From the very beginning of this chapter, Jesus was talking in parables so that “uninitiated” don’t understand his message and got guided because Jesus (pbuh) knew (as he told) that if they understood they might believe and got guided which might lead to forgiving of their sins by God (as this is what the way of salvation according to Jesus (pbuh). Imagine, savior of the humanity didn’t want these peoples to be saved! And, he was playing tricks to push them to the hell. So, we saw here that saving was through belief in their prophet and getting guidance and acting accordingly. Jesus (pbuh) told clearly in other places .e.g.
“Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in NO CASE enter into the kingdom of heaven”
And we Muslims believe the same i.e salvation is through belief and righteous deed.
“Quran 47:2 But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad (pbuh), for it is the truth from their Lord, He will expiate from them their sins, and will make good their state.”
So, the mission and way of saving was same for both Jesus (pbuh) and Mohammad (pbuh).
So what about those verses of sacrifice and atonement? I told in the beginning, regarding the reasons for being in the Bible (i.e. Paul). Proof is from Bible. Jesus (pbuh) himself told he did not come for sacrifice but mercy (as all prophets).
“Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have MERCY, and NOT SACRIFICE: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
And see the scene on the eve of alleged sacrifice:
“Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, LET THIS CUP PASS FROM ME: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]. “
See here, Jesus is asking God to prevent this impending death (supposed to be sacrifice). Brother, he was not at all a willing candidate for the sacrifice, as projected by the letters of Paul. So, if you read Bible properly you can still see Jesus (pbuh) came to save people but in the way all other prophets did i.e. by guiding people . So, Jesus was the only link for the people of that time to reach God and similarly Mohammad (pbuh), being the last prophet is link for all the people since his time and forever.
“Quran 47:2 Muhammad (pbuh) is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allâh and THE LAST (end) of the Prophets. And Allâh is Ever AllAware of everything.”
One more verse which you quoted needs consideration i.e.
“John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father’s house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE: NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME.”
He can very well mean it for the people of that time as he was the only link at that time. It cannot be generalized (as it smells) for all times because what about people before Jesus (pbuh). If taken literally none of the peoples before Jesus (pbuh) will go to heaven ( God- The Brutal? Nauzbillah). And it has been cleared by Peter in the Bible.
“Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I PERCEIVE THAT GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS: 35But in every nation he that FEARETH HIM, and WORKETH RIGHTEOUSNESS, IS ACCEPTED WITH HIM.”
So, to repeat the true concept (Islamic) of salvation, i.e. Belief, and righteous deeds. This is the same way of saving by both Jesus (pbuh) and Mohammad (pbuh).
2. Jesus(pbuh) broke the law of Moses:
You quoted many verses but you quoted a wrong verse with this regard also, which neglects this theory (why? you know better) i.e.
“ Matthew 5:17 THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, or the prophets: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
It is a very straight forward and detailed confirmation that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill the law.
So what about other verses you quoted, in this regard e.g.
“John 13:34 A NEW COMMANDMENT I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.”
Brother “to love” was not a new commandment, as it smells. People before Jesus(pbuh) knew “to love” otherwise humanity could not have reached up to the time of Jesus(pbuh).Yes, might be the level and practice of “love” would have deteriorated ,so Jesus wanted to rejuvenate them. Didn’t you quote the same view regarding Jesus (pbuh).
“Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save THAT WHICH WAS LOST”.
So, again it was misinterpretation of the verses of Gospel supported by letters of apostles especially self appointed disciple, Paul. But Jesus was clear in his wordings that he did not come to destroy the law rather to fulfill. And, we believe disciple cannot speak better than master and even Gospel says so
“Matthew 10: 24 The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord.”
And Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) had the similar but extended mission i.e. confirmation of the religions before.
“Quran: 3:3 It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur’ân) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)”
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3. Mohammad(pbuh) was a prophet :
(and more specifically according to you, a self proclaimed. But brother you did not give any reasoning or quotations. So it is an empty claim and if you have the quotation, quote it down next time, inshallah I will clear your doubt.)
Now the question is, Whether Jesus (pbuh)was also a prophet? (Quran says clearly but it is of no use for you at this time, when you are flowing in prejudices and can’t see the light of Islam). So, from Bible and from the mouth of Jesus (pbuh), it is being told that he was prophet.
e.g. “Matthew 13: 57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A PROPHET is not without honor, save in his own country, and in his own house.”
When Jesus came to his country, peoples offended him on that Jesus telling himself to be a prophet and telling them prophets are not honored in his country. Similar situation was of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) as he was tortured a lot in his country and got respect , when migrated from there to Medina.
Many other verses where people and his disciples considered him to be prophet are there in Bible e.g. Luke 24:19, John 6:14, John 7:40, Matthew 21:11, Like 7:16 etc.
In Acts 2:22, Peter is giving the clear concept of Jesus (pbuh) being true and typical prophet.
“Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN APPROVED OF GOD among you by MIRACLES and wonders and signs, which GOD DID BY HIM in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:”
It does not leave any space for further explanation regarding Jesus (pbuh) being prophet (of course if you believe in Bible).
Similarly Mohammad (pbuh) was also a man, approved by God and given miracle, which God did through him.
4. Both Jesus (pbuh) and Mohammad (pbuh) were Muslims :
(i.e. they both submitted their will to God.) About Mohammad (pbuh) there is no need to explain how he was Muslim (you already quoted so many verses proving this) but Jesus (pbuh) being Muslim is amazing!
“John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I SEEK NOT MINE OWN WILL, BUT THE WILL OF THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME.”
So, both Jesus (pbuh) and Mohammad (pbuh) were muslims.
5. Limitations:
A. Knowledge: As you quoted, we agree that knowledge of Mohammad (pbuh) was limited and he had the knowledge as much as God wanted. Regarding Jesus (pbuh), it is the same.
“Mark 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the Father.”
Amazingly, Jesus didn’t have the knowledge regarding season related to fig tree(Mark 11:13).
B. No authority on people’s behalf:
This is a wrong presentation. Prophet has the authority to intercede for his people. But, according to God’s wish.
Sahih Muslim Hadith no. 5655: Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: I shall be pre- eminent amongst the descendants of Adam on the Day of Resurrection and I will be the first intercessor and the first whose intercession will be accepted (by Allah).
“Quran19:87 None shall have the power of intercession, but such a ONE AS HAS RECEIVED PERMISSION (OR PROMISE) FROM THE MOST BENEFICENT (ALLAH).”
Same thing Jesus told “John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I JUDGE: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but THE WILL OF THE FATHER which hath sent me.”
So, what about verses of Quran quoted by you. Brother, as I told the final decision on the nature of intercession and it’s result is with God alone. And Quran is very clear on this issue also. Prophets can intercede but there are certain occasions when this right has been taken from them. It is clearly mentioned in Quran and vaguely present in Bible also.
All these situations you quoted above belong to matter related to disbelievers or Mushriks (one who makes partner with God). And according to Quran any sin can be forgiven but “shirk” (disbelieving the God or making partner with God) will not be forgiven.
“Quran 4:116 Verily! Allâh forgives not (the sin of) setting up partners in worship with Him, but He forgives whom he pleases sins other than that, and whoever sets up partners in worship with Allâh, has indeed strayed far away.”
So when comes to Shirk and Mushrik, God doesn’t give right to anybody for their intercession. Even Bible strongly condemns Shirk and Mushrik.. In many verses, God condemned idol worshipping and presented it to be severe crime. You can see the verse below, God is so serious regarding this big sin i.e. “Shirk”.
“Deutronomy 6:15 (For the LORD thy God [is] a JEALOUS GOD among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth”.
Yes, Islam is clearer in it’s message as it is the confirmation of religions before and is final.
So, in short both Jesus (pbuh) and Mohammad (pbuh) had certain limitations but that do not degrade them, rather they uplift them as prophets and of course creates hindrance in the concept, if somebody tries to elevate them to the level of God.
6. Allegations on Mohammad (pbuh):
When Ahmad Deedat did research and found out very clear predictions regarding Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), he asked Christian missionaries about such predictions, but they rejected flatly. So he asked them a very logical question that you people boast, that in Bible there are many minor predictions e.g. USSR, Pope, Israel etc. and you have no prediction regarding greatest savior of humanity, having more than one-fifth of world following him. This provoked them and since then Christian apologetics playing mischief instead of searching the truth and seeing the light of Mohammad’s (pbuh) arrival. Where ever, in the Bible, any parable related to bad man or ruler or leader or prophet or king is given, it is being illogically, without any proof, attributed to Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). May God guide you and save from Hell.
Actually, Ahmad Deedat was asking about predictions not parables. You also quoted one of the similar mischiefs of Christian missionaries and apologetics. Now we will see the verse with verses before and later to understand, whether it is parable or prediction and whether there is any possibility of truth in this statement.
“Matthew 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. 12Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the PHARISEES were offended, after they heard this saying? 13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14LET THEM ALONE: THEY BE BLIND LEADERS OF THE BLIND. AND IF THE BLIND LEAD THE BLIND, BOTH SHALL FALL INTO THE DITCH. 15Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this PARABLE. 16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.”
Any man who reads this will understand that it is PARABLE not prediction (and even peter said so) and it is not for any prophet but for Jewish PHARISEES who were offending Jesus (pbuh).
Here Jesus (pbuh) met peoples with tradition of dishonoring parents and they were proud of that. And when they caught some disciples eating without washing their hands they offended strongly, as though, this is one of the worst crime and defiles the people. So, Jesus (pbuh) objected and told thatt what they were doing was a big crime that defiles ( not mere washing of hand). On hearing this, they got angry so Jesus (pbuh) changed the tone and started talking in parables regarding Pharisees which you could not understand and labeled it to our beloved prophet (pbuh). Actually, Peter also did not understand but Jesus explained to him and he understood but you stopped there and used your crookedness and hypocrisy and labeled it to an innocent. Brother instead of reading and copying from here and there you read Bible properly and pray God for guidance. Jesus(pbuh) never said in the Bible that another person after me will come, and claim himself to be the last prophet, who will be a liar and who will misguide people.
On the contrary, Jesus (pbuh) did prophesized about Mohammad (pbuh) in many places and I am giving you one example how prediction looks like.
“John16: 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, THE COMFORTER will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13HOWBEIT WHEN HE, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, IS COME, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: FOR HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF; BUT WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, [THAT] SHALL HE SPEAK: AND HE WILL SHEW YOU THINGS TO COME. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. “
Can’t you read clearly. But probably you belong to a different category, regarding whom Jesus (pbuh) used the parables (and we have seen that you love parables)
“Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.”
“The Truth” is little harsh. I am sorry if my words did hurt you. I pray God to guide you and me to the truth.
Dear Muslim ‘comforter’,
You wrote a lot. Here I am responding to some of your interesting comments. I gave numbers to each point I chose to comment from your posting. At the beginning of each point I quoted your words followed by my response.
1. “There is a world of difference between the perception of Christians (so called) and Muslims when it comes to the religion.”
I can’t agree more with this statement. For Muslims, religion is to believe in certain statements that are attributed to Muhammad and do a number of rituals in order to buy/gain salvation/favor before Allah. That is why Christians don’t want to be associated with ‘religion.’ We Christians don’t try to buy/gain salvation through religious ceremonies and rituals, but we receive God’s salvation through faith in what He has done for us (God has ransomed us through a mighty or tremendous sacrifice—Jesus’ atoning death on the cross) by His grace alone. No human works or piety will be able to buy God’s salvation. Believing in God is the basic step towards ‘salvation,’ but that alone cannot save a person for even the evil spirits believe God and shudder. Believing in God and what He has done for us is the key to salvation. If you have hard time understanding ‘God delivering us through invaluable ransom’ please read your Quran Sura 37:100-111.
2. “You presented regarding mission of Jesus (pbuh) and Mohammad (pbuh) according to your perception and misinterpretation. ..according to you, mission of Jesus was: To save the sinner, To break the law of Moses and bring the new law, And to take us to the father in heaven.”
You labeled my writing as ‘misinterpretation’ while misquoting me and misinterpreting my points: Eg. ‘To break the law.’ This is not what I wrote, nor what I meant. I clearly wrote that Jesus fulfilled the law, but not broke it. Breaking the law means committing sin. Adam and Even were given a law by God. But they disobeyed and broke the law. That is ‘sin.’ Jesus did not sin or broke the law. Let me rewrite what Jesus said, “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill” (Matt.5:17). He did not break it, but obeyed or satisfied it. Don’t be hasty in your judgments and accusations. Read carefully and understand properly, lest you come up with wrong conclusions as most of your posting shows it clearly.
3. “So prophet’s duty was to save the people and take them to heaven (of course, through belief and righteous deeds as guided by prophets)”
Ok, if that is what prophets’ duty is, then, was there anybody your prophet Mohammad saved and taken them to heaven? Or at least assured them of that? Let us see what Muhammad himself has to say about this in the Quran:
“If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me.” (7:188)
“Say, ‘I am not different from other messengers. I have no idea what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is revealed to me. I am no more than a profound warner.’” (Sura 46:9)
In contrast to Muhammad the Lord Jesus Christ assures his disciples:
“No one knows the Son (Lord Jesus Christ), except the Father (the unseen God); nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. (Matthew 11:27)
“Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.” (Luke 10:20)
“He also assured a repentant thief, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43)
“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” John 14:2-3
4. “As you quoted Matthew 1:21 and Luke 19:20 and we agree with you.
But how? For this you quoted John 10:11, John 11:29 and 1Timothy 2:5-6 i.e. by giving his life as sacrifice for other’s sin and we Muslims strongly object this. Actually this is due to misinterpretation, mispresentation, and insinuation in the scripture which is strengthened by Paul’s letters in Bible and some confusion created in Gospel of John (the last Gospel to be written well after 100 years of departure of Jesus (pbuh) and by that time Paul’s theory of resurrection and atonement had well established & that is the reason this Gospel is not in Synoptic)”
If you think quoting John is insufficient for you, let me help you with quotes from others in the Holy Bible:
“Just as the Son of Man (the Lord Jesus Christ) did not come to be served, but to serve, and TO GIVE HIS LIFE A RANSON FOR MANY” (Matthew 20:28)—This is a direct declaration by Jesus about His own atoning sacrifice.
“He (God) had one more to send, a beloved son (the Lord Jesus Christ); he sent him last of all to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son,’…but THEY TOOK HIM, AND KILLED HIM.” (Mark 12:6-8)—This is a parable told by Jesus to convey the message about His atoning death.
“The Son of Man (the Lord Jesus Christ) must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and BE KILLED, and be raised up on the third day.” (Luke 9:22)—This is a proclamation by Jesus about His atoning death and the resurrection that followed.
I hope the above few verses should suffice to help you to correct yourself from your false accusation of ‘misinterpretation’ and ‘mispresentation.’
5. “Mark 4:11 ……. all [these] things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND [THEIR] SINS SHOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM.” From the very beginning of this chapter, Jesus was talking in parables so that “uninitiated” don’t understand his message and got guided because Jesus (pbuh) knew (as he told) that if they understood they might believe and got guided which might lead to forgiving of their sins by God (as this is what the way of salvation according to Jesus (pbuh). Imagine, savior of the humanity didn’t want these peoples to be saved! And, he was playing tricks to push them to the hell. So, we saw here that saving was through belief in their prophet and getting guidance and acting accordingly. Jesus (pbuh) told clearly in other places .e.g. “Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in NO CASE enter into the kingdom of heaven”
i) Mark 4:11. Here by quoting what Jesus had said you think that the savior of the humanity didn’t want these people to be saved. Nothing can be further from the truth. Jesus is referring to the people who had already been given enough light to come to God, but they deliberately rejected the truth and trampled it. These are the people who saw miracles taking place right in front of their eyes and heard the truth that was being clearly proclaimed to them, yet they rejected God. That’s why they lost the privilege of getting one more opportunity to be saved. Since you cannot look into the context in which Jesus said what he said it is no surprise that you came to that silly conclusion.
Something similar is also written in Quran. The Quran’s most gracious, most merciful Allah says this: “Many are the Jinns and men WE HAVE CREATED FOR HELL. They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not” (Sura 7:179). That is the kind of god you as a Muslim believe and fear, but I don’t. Because the God whom I as a Christian believe and love is a God of love (1John 4:8). “This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1Timothy 2:3-4). This is the God of the Bible, unlike the god of the Quran. Praise be to Him forever and ever!
ii) Matt.5:20. Here too you failed to consider the context and other related truths. According to the Bible a person receives ‘salvation’ (forgiveness of sins and acceptance into God’s presence) through ‘faith’ and by ‘grace.’ Jesus represents what God has offered to mankind as an expression of His love. If you believe in Jesus for salvation you will be saved. After receiving the salvation one displays the acts of ‘righteousness’ that are acceptable to God. Not vice versa. In short this is the order: ‘Grace’—‘Faith’—‘Salvation’—‘Righteousdeeds.’ During Jesus’ time Jews were religious. They believed God and were very much involved in religious ceremonies and activities. That was not enough for them to enter into the kingdom of God. In Mathew 5:20 while acknowledging the fact that scribes and Pharisees do engage in righteousdeeds Jesus is warning his hearers that those righteousdeeds are not sufficient to enter into the Kingdom of God. But what else needed? Exceeding righteousness! How to acquire this particular ‘exceeding righteousness’? By having ‘faith’ in Jesus (in his words) we can receive ‘salvation,’ thereby receive the inner strength to do the kind of righteous deeds that Jesus is explaining in the verses that followed 5:20. The very ability to do those deeds is the evidence to the fact that we have ‘more righteousness’ within us that comes through ‘faith’ in Jesus (his words).
6. “Jesus (pbuh) himself told he did not come for sacrifice but mercy (as all prophets).
“Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have MERCY, and NOT SACRIFICE; for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentence.”
Do you know what you have done here? What you have done was exactly what you had accused me of, namely, ‘misinterpretation’ and ‘misrepresentation.’ Either you don’t know how to read this verse in its context or you tried your best to deceive others, like Ahmad Deedat, to turn them away from the truth. I hope you don’t do this again. Cause that’s what Satan does!
Let me quote it properly for others to see so that they too can understand what you have done in your (mis)interpretation of Matthew 9:13:
But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.
‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, NOT SACARIFICE’ is a quotation from the Old Testament (Hosea 6:6). Here Jesus responding to religious Jews who had religious objection to what Jesus was doing. Jesus told his opponents to go to the scripture and read and understand it properly what God revealed through prophet Hosea. This he did to drive his point home. Although ceremonial sacrifices were expected from the Jews for ceremonial reasons what matters before God is not how many ‘sacrifices’ one offered, but how much ‘compassion’ one showed to others. Like what Muslims do annually at Hajj, Jews were offering sacrifices in the temple in Jerusalem to please God and win salvation. That is what Jesus is addressing here. He is not talking about the sacrifice he himself was going to offer.
Let the ONE TRUE GOD be the judge between you and me.
7. “No authority on people’s behalf:
This is wrong presentation. Prophet has the authority to intercede for his people. But, according to God’s wish.
Sahih Muslim Hadith no.5655; Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said; I shall be pre-eminent amongst the descendants of Adam on the Day of Resurrection and I will be the first intercessor and the first whose intercession will be accepted (by Allah)”
If what you wrote is true let us take some more data from your own books and try to understand it straight, if at all it is possible. The same Muhammad who said something strange in the above Hadith says in the Quran (supposedly Allah’s word): “I am not different from other messengers. I have no idea what will happen to me or to you.” So, is what the Quran says is true or what the Muslim Hadith says is true? In addition to this please look at the following information also:
And warn therewith those who fear they shall be mustered to their Lord; they have, apart from God, NO protector and no intercessor; haply they will be godfearing. S. 6:51
God is He that created the heavens and the earth, and what between them is, in six days, then seated Himself upon the Throne. Apart from Him, you have NO protector neither mediator; will you not remember? S. 32:4
Narrated Abu Huraira:
When Allah revealed the Verse: “Warn your nearest kinsmen,” Allah’s Apostle got up and said, “O people of Quraish (or said similar words)! Buy (i.e. save) yourselves (from the Hellfire) as I cannot save you from Allah’s Punishment; O Bani Abd Manaf! I cannot save you from Allah’s Punishment, O Safiya, the Aunt of Allah’s Apostle! I cannot save you from Allah’s Punishment; O Fatima bint Muhammad! Ask me anything from my wealth, but I cannot save you from Allah’s Punishment.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 51, Number 16)
So, now try to figure out first which one is true and which one is false here. Afterwards you can try to build a hope in Muhammad’s intercession for salvation on the day of judgment.
Dear Muslim comforter,
Let me continue with my responses to your other interesting comments.
8. “Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, LET THIS CUP PASS FROM ME: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]. See here, Jesus is asking God to prevent this impending death (supposed to be sacrifice). Brother, he was not at all a willing candidate for the sacrifice, as projected by the letters of Paul.”
Jesus is the perfect model/example for mankind. He not only talked about the way we should live, but also showed us through his life. Here we see Jesus as the perfect ‘man’ showing us how to submit ourselves to God’s will even in the face of toughest challenge. By reading the above prayer of Jesus a man with spiritual discernment can see how Jesus in his perfect human nature submitting himself to God’s will. Yes, the task ahead of him (taking up the sins of the whole world upon himself, and paying the penalty for all of it) was enormous and excruciating. However, he did not flinch a bit from facing it. You failed in your deceptive way of portraying Jesus as an ‘unwilling candidate’ for the sacrifice. Contrary to your portrayal Jesus is not kicking and crying against facing the task like an unwilling person, rather he had been preparing himself resolutely for this task for more than three years and now in the final hour he is bringing the issue before God and submitting himself to God’s will. In the end he triumphed over human nature and its tendencies by sacrificing his ‘will’ before Father’s ‘will.’ Can you see that? I don’t think you can. Jesus’ words, “If it be possible, let this cup pass from me” gave you the ‘reason’ to see him as “not at all a willing candidate for the sacrifice.” My friend, I can’t expect more matured comment than this from a typical Muslim like you. All because of your biased religiosity and spiritual blindness. Come out of it, you will be blessed by God.
9. “Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE: NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME. He can very well mean it for the people of that time as he was the only link at that time. It cannot be generalized (as it smells) for all times because what about people before Jesus (pbuh). If taken literally none of the peoples before Jesus (pbuh) will go to heaven ( God- The Brutal? Nauzbillah). And it has been cleared by Peter in the Bible. Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I PERCEIVE THAT GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS: 35But in every nation he that FEARETH HIM, and WORKETH RIGHTEOUSNESS, IS ACCEPTED WITH HIM.”
Three things in order here…
(i) In the above Bible verse Jesus’ claim for exclusivity is not for a ‘limited time.’ Just by reading it anybody can understand it. As you complained, even if taken literally how can you see any problem with all those who went to heaven/God before Jesus? At the time of my appointment as the director of an organization if I say ‘I have the access to all the information in this organization,’ how does a man with common sense should take it? Will my statement applicable to present-future or else for the past-present-future? Why can’t you use common sense, assuming you have it, in understanding Jesus words, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” This statement of Jesus is applicable from his time onwards to the end of the world.
(ii) You say, ‘if taken literally none of the peoples before Jesus will go to heaven (God – The Brutal? Nauzbillah). My dear friend, true God is not a brutal God, but Islamic Allah is. If you don’t believe it let me quote this aya once again for your enlightenment, “Many are the Jinns and men WE (Allah) HAVE CREATED FOR HELL” (Sura 7:179). Can you see what kind of Allah the Quran you believe in?
(iii) Let me quote what Peter actually said in Acts 10:34-35,43 and then expose your deception in your misinterpretation and misquotation: And opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcome to Him…Of Him (The Lord Jesus Christ) all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” Yes, even Peter is ascertaining that if a man fears God and does what is right that man will be welcomed to God. But how? By allowing that man to come to know the true gospel i.e. Jesus, through which he can be saved. That is exactly what is being demonstrated in the 10th chapter of the Book of Acts. Read it then you can understand it. If you heavily rely on anti-Christian Muslim Davagandists websites and use copy&paste you will miss the truth and display your ignorance for the world to see.
10. “So what about other verses you quoted, in this regard e.g. John 13:34 A NEW COMMANDMENT I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. Brother “to love” was not a new commandment, as it smells. People before Jesus(pbuh) knew “to love” otherwise humanity could not have reached up to the time of Jesus(pbuh).Yes, might be the level and practice of “love” would have deteriorated ,so Jesus wanted to rejuvenate them. Didn’t you quote the same view regarding Jesus (pbuh).”
Here you need to understand what I am trying to say first. I am not saying that Jesus broke the Law that was brought by Moses and brought a new Law. Instead, Jesus by fulfilling the Law (not nullifying it) made an end to it for those who come to him. That means, if I go to Jesus I take his place that’s why I don’t have to fulfill the Law, however, I must obey the ‘new Law’ that is what Jesus said in John 13:34: “A new commandment I give to you, that you love (agape) one another, even as I have loved (agape) you, that you also love one another.” Yes, as you wrote ‘to love’ is something that we see in the humanity in one form or another. However, the ‘love’ (philia-friendship, eros-lust, storge-affection) that we see in the world is different from the kind of love Jesus is talking about. He is talking about ‘agape’ which is ‘highest quality of love.’ That is shown to us by God though Jesus. No other human being loved his neighbor as Jesus loved us. That’s why he says, ‘even as I have loved you, that you love one another.’ This is the ‘New Command’ or New Law. The essence of the Old Law was ‘to love your neighbor as yourself.’ Where as the essence of the New Law is ‘to love your neighbor as Jesus loved.’
11. “Mohammad(pbuh) was a prophet: (and more specifically according to you, a self proclaimed. But brother you did not give any reasoning or quotations. So it is an empty claim and if you have the quotation, quote it down next time, inshallah I will clear your doubt.) Now the question is, Whether Jesus (pbuh)was also a prophet? (Quran says clearly but it is of no use for you at this time, when you are flowing in prejudices and can’t see the light of Islam).”
(i) Was Muhammad a prophet? Let me be honest I did make a mistake in my writing. I wrote Muhammad was a ‘self-proclaimed’ prophet. When I did some study of the hadiths I realized that it was not fully true. Therefore, I offer my apologies. According to Muhammad himself he was visited by a ‘spirit’ while he was in the cave of Hira. Originally Muhammad thought and feared that he was possessed or visited by the devil. But it was his wife Khadija and her relative who was a Christian heretic that convinced him that he was a prophet and the ‘sprit’ was the angel ‘Gabriel’. The so-called ‘last’ prophet of Muslims was not even ready to be met by an ‘angel’ let alone becoming a ‘prophet.’ My friend, do you think that the true God had to use Muhammad’s wife and a heretical Christian in order to convince Muhammad of his call to prophethood? Do you think God had failed to do that through his angel in the first place? What a revelation you guys believe in! That’s a pity and fishy too!!
(ii) Yes, Jesus was a prophet. Who said he was not? You have a problem with reading, I see it clearly. Where did I say that he was ‘not a prophet’? Talk about speaking lies! For your kind information, Jesus was a man, a prophet, a priest, a prince, God’s word etc. But definitely not a pagan man who was met by a ‘spirit’ that can chock his neck and press hard. He was a prophet, not because he had to be convinced of that by a pagan lady or a heretic. He was a prophet, not because he was a poet, but because he did mighty miracles. He got the witness for his selection by God himself, but not by some displaying his prowess in poetry. Think about these things and use common sense. If you do that you should not miss the difference between Jesus the last prophet (Mark 12:6) and Muhammad the Islamic Prophet. May God help you.
12. “Knowledge: As you quoted, we agree that knowledge of Mohammad (pbuh) was limited and he had the knowledge as much as God wanted. Regarding Jesus (pbuh), it is the same. Mark 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the Father.” Amazingly, Jesus didn’t have the knowledge regarding season related to fig tree (Mark 11:13).”
Hello, don’t talk about Jesus not having the knowledge of his coming or something else. It is you who doesn’t even have the knowledge of it’s answer that is already given in the above article “Fallacious Tactic #3.” Check it for yourself. Have patience and read it. That will save your time and mine too. As time permits, Lord willing, I will provide you some knowledge about the fig tree incident in Mark 11:13 in the days to come so that you may not remain without knowledge.
13. “When Ahmad Deedat did research and found out very clear predictions regarding Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), he asked Christian missionaries about such predictions, but they rejected flatly.Where ever, in the Bible, any parable related to bad man or ruler or leader or prophet or king is given, it is being illogically, without any proof, attributed to Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). May God guide you and save from Hell.”
You think Ahmad Deedat did a great job by talking and teaching ill about God’s word, the Bible. Go and find out how he was struck down and died. That alone should open the eyes of the Muslims like you. We can talk and debate about Deedat’s foolish arguments later. But for now, why going to Christian missionaries who could not answer his question. I will provide you the answer: “For false Christs and FALSE PROPHETS will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as TO MISLEAD, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I HAVE TOLD YOU IN ADVANCE. If therefore they say to you, ‘Behold, he is IN THE DESERT,’ do not go forth, or, ‘behold he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.” (Matthew 24:24-26). I hope you know at least the fact that Muhammad was in Arabia which was a desert place. Here Jesus is not telling a ‘parable,’ or a ‘proverb.’ It is purely a ‘prediction.’ Friend, truth hurts, if only you can see it! Regarding being saved from ‘hell’: The Bible assures me, “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” Since I am in Christ Jesus I know for sure that there is no ‘hell’ punishment for me. That punishment has been paid out by my Lord Jesus Christ on behalf of me and you too if you can accept. Whereas you as Muslim need to be in constant fear of ‘hell’ because you don’t know what would happen to you. By the way, I am praying for you that you may not continue to be in darkness that leads you to hell, but come to know the truth and receive God’s salvation through Christ Jesus.
14. “Matthew 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. 12Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the PHARISEES were offended, after they heard this saying? 13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14LET THEM ALONE: THEY BE BLIND LEADERS OF THE BLIND. AND IF THE BLIND LEAD THE BLIND, BOTH SHALL FALL INTO THE DITCH. 15Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this PARABLE. 16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.” Any man who reads this will understand that it is PARABLE not prediction (and even peter said so)”
My friend, I quoted Matthew 15:14 in order to appropriate the meaning of the ‘proverb’ to the context. That’s all. I did not mean that it was a ‘prediction’ about Muhammad (although it could well be). For your enlightenment the ‘parable’ Peter referring to in verse 15 is not about the verse 14. It is about the verse 10. Read the scripture slowly and with willingness to understand it. What Jesus used in verse 14 is a well-known ‘proverb.’ Even now many cultures use that proverb. Perhaps first you need to learn the difference between a parable and a proverb, only then you can see and understand why I quoted it.
15. “Brother instead of reading and copying from here and there you read Bible properly and pray God for guidance. Jesus(pbuh) never said in the Bible that another person after me will come, and claim himself to be the last prophet, who will be a liar and who will misguide people.”
Brother! I read the Bible and showed you how Jesus predicted about false prophets who would come after him. Let me re-quote those verses for your sake: “For false Christs and FALSE PROPHETS will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as TO MISLEAD, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I HAVE TOLD YOU IN ADVANCE. If therefore they say to you, ‘Behold, he is IN THE DESERT,’ do not go forth, or, ‘behold he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.” (Matthew 24:24-26).
16. “John16: 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, THE COMFORTER will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13HOWBEIT WHEN HE, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, IS COME, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: FOR HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF; BUT WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, [THAT] SHALL HE SPEAK: AND HE WILL SHEW YOU THINGS TO COME. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. Can’t you read clearly. But probably you belong to a different category, regarding whom Jesus (pbuh) used the parables (and we have seen that you love parables) “Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.” “The Truth” is little harsh. I am sorry if my words did hurt you. I pray God to guide you and me to the truth.”
You carefully missed out the verse 15. “All things that the Father has are mine; therefore I said, that He takes of mine, and will disclose it to you.”
My friend, here ‘the Comforter’ is the Sprit of God, but not Muhammad. Why so? Let’s see the differences between the Comforter and Muhammad:
a) The Comforter: He is sent by Jesus (verse 7). He is sent soon after Jesus went away into heaven (v.7). He will disclose to us what is to come (v.13). He shall glorify The Lord Jesus Christ (v.14). He takes from Jesus and discloses it to us, for all things that the Father has are Jesus’ (v.15).
b) Muhammad: Do you agree that he was sent by Jesus? (v.7). He came more than 500 years later Jesus went into heaven (v.7). He could not give prophecies about the future in the Quran (v.13). Do you accept that he glorifies Jesus? (v.14). Do you also accept that he takes from Jesus and gave it to you (perhaps the Quran)? (v.15). Can you believe that whatever he received belongs to Jesus for all things belongs to Jesus? (v.15)!!!
Read the Bible properly and understand its context and meaning. Take what it says, but never try to give it what you want to. The Bible is not poetry like Quran. Friend, truth hurts, sometimes a lot. That’s not bad though! The ‘truth’ shall deliver you as the Lord wills.
Take care,
I will be praying for your salvation.
Brother, I don’t like writings, but it is not easy to repair a dent, even though making a dent is very easy & it may need only a hit.
1. Regarding my statement, “There is a world of difference between the perception of Christians (so called) and Muslims when it comes to the religion.”, you objected, but actually you agreed and told, “Christians don’t want to be associated with ‘religion’”, while Muslims do (as you told regarding rituals, ?prayers etc). You again repeated your salvation theory. I remember one statement, on one blog on Christian salvation, really interesting.
“once upon a time there was this city filled with bad people, who did bad things and always got away with everything bad that they always did. Always except this one time when they did get caught, and the entire city was arrested! Soon it was time for them to appear in court and they stood before the judge to plead their case. All the bad people of this city stood before the judge and claimed “oh just judge, we know we are bad people and we have done bad things, but please! do not punish us let us go! because there is one among us in our city who has never done anything bad in his whole life. infact, he has always told us to stay away from bad things, but we never listened, so please punish this man instead!!!” And so, upon hearing this the judge had this goodly man quite immediately arrested and and put infront of a firing squad and given a gruesome penalty of death. The bad bad people were let go in return, and the bad people returned to their bad ways. THE END! :
oh, did I mention the good man was the son of the judge?”
What a logical and easy salvation you have made.
Now regarding your statement in this point, ‘God delivering us through invaluable ransom’ and you quoted the test of Prophet Abraham and Ismael (pbut) from Quran. Brother did you read that or just copied from Sam Shamoun’s website or from the database of “Sakshi”(in turn also a copy from Sam guru). Where did god mention about the ransom Ismael was supposed to give for peoples (sinners)? This was supposed to be a TEST not that “God wanted to deliver us through invaluable ransom”. Poor understanding (sorry.. copying)?
2. So, at least you believe that Jesus came to fulfill not to abolish the commandment. (as per your statement, “ He did not break it, but obeyed or satisfied it.”). I salute you and may God guide you further. So, why don’t you also salute Jesus (pbuh) and do not break but obey and satisfy, what Jesus obeyed and satisfied. Why don’t you circumcise yourself (as Jesus was according to this verse of bible “ Luke 2:21 And at the end of eight days, when he was circumcised, he was….”) and start campaign against “pork”, prevalent in the Christendom (“Leviticus 11:7 And the swine, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. 8 Of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch; they are unclean to you.”) And Jesus satisfied this law by not eating pork.
3. You asked “was there anybody your prophet Mohammad saved and taken them to heaven? Or at least assured them of that?”. There are many examples (may be you did not get them on Sam guru’s website): If I start quoting this response will take the form of book, so few to mention.
i. Regarding his companions:
The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Abu Bakr will be in Paradise, ‘Umar will be in Paradise, ‘Uthmaan will be in Paradise, ‘Ali will be in Paradise, Talhah will be in Paradise, al-Zubayr will be in Paradise, ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf will be in Paradise, Sa’d will be in Paradise, Sa’eed will be in Paradise, and Abu ‘Ubaydah ibn al-Jarraah will be in Paradise.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 3680). Sa’d is Sa’d ibn Abi Waqqaas, and Sa’eed is Sa’eed ibn Zayd. There are also a number of other Sahaabah who were given the glad tidings of Paradise, such as Khadeejah bint Khuwaylid, ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Salaam, ‘Ukaashah ibn Muhsan and others, but the ten mentioned above are called the ten who were given the glad tidings of Paradise because their glad tidings came in one hadeeth.
ii. Regarding believers:
The Prophet said, “Whoever believes in Allah and His Apostle, offers prayers perfectly and fasts (the month of) Ramadan then it is incumbent upon Allah to admit him into Paradise, whether he emigrates for Allah’s cause or stays in the land where he was born.” They (the companions of the Prophet) said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Should we not inform the people of that?” …… Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Number 519
Like wise you also quoted, Jesus(pbuh) informed people, regarding the good news about heaven, but at the same time Jesus(pbuh) [like our prophet Mohammad (pbuh)] warned “Matthew 5:20 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven”. Where is the problem?
4. I only told that Gospel of John is different from “synoptic” and stress MORE on divinity of Jesus (pbuh). Who told, I believe other Gospels to be 100% correct?
Next point, It is a common saying that Baba Ambedkar gave his life as ransom to backwards and untouchables of India. But how? Please try to know this yourself, you will get answer of your quote, “Matthew 20:28 Even as THE SON OF MAN came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
Do you know about this, “THE SON OF MAN”, that he also cannot help others something similar to you quoted for Prophet Mohammad (pbuh).
“Psalm 146 :3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in The Son Of Man, in whom [there is] no help”. KJV
Is it also for those “uninitiated” ? but, God forgot (nauzbillah), to mention. May be holy spirit would have inspired “Guru Sam” regarding this. Search ! and see what inspiration he got?
Next time, you may quote probably 5 more verses from other Gospels, where it is quoted that Jesus was killed (e.g. Luke 9:22). By the way brother, in the language of Bible, People can die everyday, then why not for three days.
“1Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I DIE DAILY.” (KJV)
5. i). Mark 4:11- Jesus didn’t want uninitiated should be converted. So, according to you, uninitiated were “exceptions” because you said, “Jesus is referring to the people who had already been given enough light to come to God, but they deliberately rejected the truth and trampled it. These are the people who saw miracles taking place right in front of their eyes and heard the truth that was being clearly proclaimed to them, yet they rejected God. That’s why they lost the privilege of getting one more opportunity to be saved.”
Then you are saying regarding God of love of Bible “1 Timothy2: 3For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
Does it mean this “ALL” does not mean real “all” of English and it included exception of uninitiated.(God again forgot …nauzbillah) Or, uninitiated community comprised of only women, as here it is mentioned , “all MEN”.
Now regarding Quran, which again came under your misinterpretation. There are many places in Quran where God said that He sealed the heart of peoples or created them for hell. First of all you read this verse of “Quran 63:3 That is because they believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed, so they understand not.”
It is something as teacher says to his student (when student is not following the instruction properly),” I ‘ll give you in written that you will not pass the exam. It doesn’t mean teacher wanted that student to fail or if student really failed, does it mean that, it is teacher who is responsible for his failure (only because he warned so in this style). Teacher told this out of his experience. So, what about God, who is All-knowing, who knows everything whether past, or present or future? And if God says that, He made him for hell or sealed heart, it never means He made him for Hell but declaring that this particular person who is also a God’s creation will go to hell or he will not respond to the call of God (i.e. heart is sealed).
Now , you decide that this Quranic God, who is predicting regarding bad people and warning them, is good, or the Biblical God, who showed all miracles and gave the best teaching(of the time) and when they (people like scribes and others) rejected Him, He started playing tricks to push them to the Hell. It is up to you decide.
ii). Before proceeding further, I want to clear Islamic view of salvation and grace of God once more. Brother, we Muslims also believe that most important thing in the salvation is God’s grace and mercy. And it is so important that our prophet said,
“The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise (i.e., no one enters paradise only through his good deeds).” The Prophet’s companions asked: “Not even you?” The Prophet replied: “Not even myself, unless God bestows his favor and mercy on me. So be moderate in your religious deeds and do what is within your ability. None of you should wish for death, for if he is a doer of good, he may increase his good deeds, and if he is an evil doer, he may repent to God.” Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Hadith 577
But, at the same time we believe, God is most just (Quran 3: 182. …. certainly, Allâh is never unjust to (His) slaves). He’ll never cheat people. So, we believe that if we have TRUE faith and SINCERE righteous deed, we’ll surely deserve God’s grace (as God is just and He told, these are the ways to be successful and our God can never cheat and He is ALL-KNOWING and ALL POWERFUL). And there are incidences when person will appear to be very faithful to God and very righteous, but still at the end he will not make it to heaven, because it was what appeared to us, but God knew about his level of faith and sincerity of his supposed righteous deed. God wants to save us, that is why, He warned and guided us in detail through his messengers and scriptures. And he gave us ample opportunity in a very simple and plain way, ask for forgiveness to God directly. He is most-loving, most- merciful. From Him forgiveness is very easy. You ask him with the sincerity and inshallah you will be forgiven. If God wants a thing he has to mere wish, it is all for us, and in Quranic language : “Be and it is ”(Quran 2: 117. The Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it : “Be!” – and it is)
We don’t believe God will have to do all those drama of becoming human in the form of his son, then get tortured and then got killed for forgiving people and if somebody does not believe in Him, He has to cheat them to make sure they reach hell (Mark 4:11). Is it not drama, that the God, who is ETERNAL and can never have ending, will have temporary apparent death to show that He loved them that is why he is dying for the people (by changing his form i.e. another disguise and cheating). Amazing concept!
Now regarding Matthew 5: 20 “For I say unto you, That except YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL EXCEED [THE RIGHTEOUSNESS] OF THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heave”
Brother you have some problem of reading. You read something but understand opposite. Here it is written unless you increase “in righteousness” not “beyond righteousness” to something else like “faith in death of God”. Here it is written that “RIGHTEOUSNESS EXCEED” not “exceed righteousness”. If you read properly, there is world of difference. So, is it not misinterpretation and mis-presentation i.e. cheating?
6. Another interesting thing. I quoted .. “Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have MERCY, and NOT SACRIFICE; for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentence.”
And you put allegation on me and clarified my misquotation(supposed). And said,
“Do you know what you have done here? What you have done was exactly what you had accused me of, namely, ‘misinterpretation’ and ‘misrepresentation.’ Either you don’t know how to read this verse in its context or you tried your best to deceive others, like Ahmad Deedat (I love him for Allah and in next few paragraphs, you will know where your allegation stands, so actually you complemented me. Thanks for comparing me to this great man, who showed light to many), to turn them away from the truth. I hope you don’t do this again. Cause that’s what Satan does!
Let me quote it properly for others to see so that they too can understand what you have done in your (mis)interpretation of Matthew 9:13:
But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners. “
For a moment, I thought, I might have done mistake. May be, my copy of Bible has some mistake. So, I wanted to clarify my doubt and I googled for downloading Bible from renowned websites and I downloaded two bibles of King James version(most famous and most translated Bible on Earth). And amazingly, both of them read the quotations exactly what I quoted. I’m giving the link of both download site, for you to check yourself.
http://www.biblepath.com/bible_download.html
http://www.contactplus.com/products/freestuff/bibleplus.htm
So, what I quoted i.e.” I will have MERCY, and NOT SACRIFICE” is the actual wordings not what you. quoted i.e. “I DESIRE COMPASSION, NOT SACRIFICE”
Might be you prefer a different version of Bible. So, if your version doesn’t read like this, it is your problem, not my “misdeed” as you alleged. By the way, tell me in advance regarding which version you prefer, as there are not only differences in the translation but also in verses and even chapters (additions and deletions).
By the way concept of “sacrifice” is there in the bible.
“Leviticus 17:11For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.” KJV
And you agreed, Jesus didn’t come to break but satisfy and fulfill the law.
Then on the birth of Jesus, his mother sacrificed two doves
“Luke 2:24 And to offer a SACRIFICE according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A PAIR OF TURTLEDOVES, or two young pigeons.”KJV
Then even your Paul didn’t mind purification by sacrifice. See below.
“Acts 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26Then PAUL TOOK THE MEN, AND THE NEXT DAY PURIFYING HIMSELF WITH THEM entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, UNTIL THAT AN OFFERING SHOULD BE OFFERED FOR EVERY ONE OF THEM.” KJV
What about these concept of sacrifices. According to you, Jesus neglected the law and ways of her GODMOTHER (Mary) and Paul neglected Jesus. A total mess of concept!
Next, you wrote one word (i.e. one true God), for which I love you and for this I forgave you, for your false allegation on me. And pray God for your forgiveness and guidance. Be sincere, and see how God forgives you. And, as you told “one true God ”be judge between me and you. Brother I also pray the same but with little addition that He makes us understand also that “one true God” means “one true God” not “three true Gods”.
7. I have already accepted that Mohammad (pbuh ) had limited knowledge [Like Jesus (pbuh)as I already quoted to you]. And, now little elaboration regarding prophets having power of intercession.
If God says, He is ALL-POWERFUL and apart from Him or besides Him no protector or mediator or intercessor, what’s wrong in it? It is true. We believe that there is no body BESIDES God or APART FROM God. But it does not mean, there can be no mediator DUE TO HIM (God).e.g. If a king is having all power in his territory and there is no body besides him in that territory. But, he can give power to judges for sentencing a person. This doesn’t mean that the king lost his power and this judge was in power besides the king, rather it means he (judge in this case) had the power due to king i.e. authorized by king). And, if king will not allow he (judge) can’t do this. So, if God is saying, “He is All- powerful and no mediator BESIDES Him (Quran 6:51)” it is complementing to the God’s word that “He is All-powerful and no body can mediate except by his permission (Quran 19:87)”.
Now regarding the hadith you presented.
Narrated Abu Huraira:
When Allah revealed the Verse: “Warn your nearest kinsmen,” Allah’s Apostle got up and said, “O people of Quraish (or said similar words)! Buy (i.e. save) yourselves (from the Hellfire) as I cannot save you from Allah’s Punishment; O Bani Abd Manaf! I cannot save you from Allah’s Punishment, O Safiya, the Aunt of Allah’s Apostle! I cannot save you from Allah’s Punishment; O Fatima bint Muhammad! Ask me anything from my wealth, but I cannot save you from Allah’s Punishment.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 51, Number 16).
Brother you should refe,r the hadith before, to get the context i.e. Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 51, Number 15. Here it is mentioned in little detail that this hadith is the explanation of Quran 26:214 and there are many other hadiths also related to this.
“Quran 26: 213. So invoke not with Allâh another ilâh (god) lest you be among those who receive punishment. 214. And warn your tribe (O Muhammad Sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe Wa Sallam) of near kindred”.
This verse was revealed in the early meccan period of prophetic mission, when Prophet (pbuh) was individually calling everybody and giving them the spiritual teaching. At that time the majority of his community was “mushrik” ( idolater )The proof is the verse 213 where the context i.e. regarding idolater is mentioned. So, Prophet (pbuh) was ordered by God to warn his tribes and announce that nothing can save them from God even prophet himself, if they don’t mend their ways. And I told you in the last response that when it comes to “mushrik”, there is no forgiveness and I quoted you the Quran and Bible. So, now you will ask why prophet called Fatima bint Mohammad (Prophet’s daughter, pbuh). Was she also a mushrik? Nauzbillah. Brother, when you warn a person regarding a crime it does not always mean the person whom you are addressing is criminal. I usually warn my son that stealing is bad, lying is bad. That doesn’t mean my son is a thief or liar. And second wisdom of this hadith, by including her name Prophet wanted to present people the clear picture of the severity of this sin “shirk” because as he said, in this case he(pbuh) can’t help even his daughter and aunt. What a beautiful presentation of our Prophet (pbuh).
And it is not contradicting to hadith which I quoted last time regarding Prophet’s intercession. And details of intercession is already explained, you just re-read them.
And it does not indicate at all that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was not a prophet or messenger (as you tried to prove), but it only indicates that Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) was only a prophet, not God, and he was authorized by God for his miracles and intercession as in this context. Something like Jesus (pbuh).
“Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN APPROVED OF GOD among you by MIRACLES and wonders and signs, which GOD DID BY HIM in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:”
“Psalm 146 :3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in The Son Of Man, in whom [there is] no help”.
May God guide you and me to the Truth (“only one true God” not “three in one true God”).
Inshallah, Coming soon with response to Part ii (at the earliest opportunity from my busy schedule).
Dear Muslim comforter,
Although I don’t have a particular passion for writing, yet now I see the need to write in order to dispel your gross misinterpretations and confusions. I don’t like to waste my time in trying to convince somebody like you who is closed to God’s truth because God’s word says, “You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; And you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hear and return, and I should heal them.” This seems to be the case with you since you are rejecting the truth not because it is ‘not truth,’ but because you deliberately choosing to close yourself to the truth. Time and again you are displaying your lack of comprehension skills in reading God’s word and coming up with false interpretations and representations. For this simple reason I thought of stopping here, but for the sake of others, particularly the Muslims brothers and sisters who are willing to use proper comprehension skills in understanding God’s word i.e. the Bible, and see for themselves what is truth I have decided to continue to expose your desperate attempts to malign God’s word.
1. You wrote, “…All the bad people of this city stood before the judge and claimed “oh just judge, we know we are bad people and we have done bad things, but please! do not punish us let us go! because there is one among us in our city who has never done anything bad in his whole life. infact, he has always told us to stay away from bad things, but we never listened, so please punish this man instead!!!” And so, upon hearing this the judge had this goodly man quite immediately arrested and and put infront of a firing squad and given a gruesome penalty of death. The bad bad people were let go in return, and the bad people returned to their bad ways. THE END! : oh, did I mention the good man was the son of the judge?” What a logical and easy salvation you have made.”
My answer:
Trying to mock at the salvation that God has prepared for all mankind, including you, you wrote a fable (I guess you got used to this kind of fables by reading your noble book) and then made this statement, “what a logical and easy salvation you have made.” This shows us how well you can understand and comprehend what I wrote in my last posting let alone what the Bible says. In your story you wrote that the bad people told the judge to punish the good/godly man in their place and the judge followed their advice. According to your story! This is one of the stupid stories I have read so far. Wait a minute, I am going quote for your entertainment the most stupid story that anybody can read in the same lines as your story.
Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. ‘Umar b. Abd al-‘Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him). (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6666)
Abu Burda reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to ‘Umar b. ‘Abd al-‘Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6668)
In the above ‘most stupid story’ the Allah of Muhammad seems to be not much different from the bad people of your ‘very interesting story.’ According to Muhammad Allah would punish Jews and Christians in the place of Muslims whose sins are as big as a mountain! What a logical and easy salvation you are coveting!! The moral of these stories is: don’t read them and believe them, but read God’s word with open mind and understand it properly. That is the best for you and will certainly lead you to ‘salvation.’
2. You wrote: “Now regarding your statement in this point, ‘God delivering us through invaluable ransom’ and you quoted the test of Prophet Abraham and Ismael (pbut) from Quran. Brother did you read that or just copied from Sam Shamoun’s website or from the database of “Sakshi”(in turn also a copy from Sam guru). Where did god mention about the ransom Ismael was supposed to give for peoples (sinners)? This was supposed to be a TEST not that “God wanted to deliver us through invaluable ransom”. Poor understanding (sorry.. copying)?”
My answers:
(i) Friend, I have a Quran and that is the King Fahd Holy Quran version. For Sura 37:100-111 I used that version (you might prefer to call it an English translation) of the Quran. In this version I don’t read the name Ishmael. Please tell me in which version of the Quran you found the name Ishmael.
(ii) You expressed your frustration by mentioning Sam Shamoun’s website (probably you might have had some sleepless nights after reading the information on his website: answering-islam.org). Be focused and don’t try to blame others for your book’s own problems.
(iii) You questioned, “Where did god mention about the ransom Ismael was supposed to give for peoples (sinners)?
My answer: Please read properly what I wrote first. Don’t ask irrelevant questions. I did not write that God mentioned about the ransom of Ishmael which is meant for the people. I did not even mention about Ishmael (Please use proper reading/comprehension skills). I quoted Sura 37:100-111 in order to point you to the fact that even in the Quran there is an ‘example’ that shows you about Allah ransoming ‘somebody’ with ‘something.’ In the same way, God has provided an invaluable sacrifice i.e. the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the cross, as a ransom for the sinful humanity. If you understand it wonderful, if not leave it. But don’t blame me for something you can’t comprehend.
3. You wrote, “So, at least you believe that Jesus came to fulfill not to abolish the commandment. (as per your statement, “ He did not break it, but obeyed or satisfied it.”). I salute you and may God guide you further. So, why don’t you also salute Jesus (pbuh) and do not break but obey and satisfy, what Jesus obeyed and satisfied. Why don’t you circumcise yourself (as Jesus was according to this verse of bible “ Luke 2:21 And at the end of eight days, when he was circumcised, he was….”) and start campaign against “pork”, prevalent in the Christendom (“Leviticus 11:7 And the swine, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. 8 Of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch; they are unclean to you.”) And Jesus satisfied this law by not eating pork.”
My answer:
i) In order to have some clarity about the ‘Law’ and ‘Grace’ first please read and try to understand the following logical steps from the Bible:
(a) A person can be justified (saved) by fulfilling the Law (ceremonial and moral). Rom.2:13
(b) The fulfilling of the Law has to be 100% , nothing less. James 2: 10
(c) There is none who was able to fulfill the Law 100% except Jesus. That’s why no one can hope for salvation through the Law. Romans 3:20
(d) Therefore, God in His love provided Jesus as the ‘invaluable ransom.’ For all those who cannot fulfill the Law (obviously 100%) can be justified (saved) by admitting their inability to fulfill the Law and trusting what God has prepared (Jesus the invaluable ransom). Romans 10:4-12.
(e) After being saved (justified) one can live a life that is acceptable before God by living in line with the ‘New Law.’ John 13:34
(f) But there are those who are free to reject the above ‘grace of God’ and seek their own righteousness (salvation) by trying to fulfill the Law (obviously you are one of them). Regarding such people the Bible says, “For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God” (Romans 10:2-3). Remember, before you leave the world if you don’t fulfill the whole Law you will be subjected to punishment in hell. (Romans 2:11-13; Revelations 20:11-15)
In the light of the above points you are welcome to choose between the Law (fulfilling it 100%) and grace (believing in what God has done for you in Jesus Christ). No coercion, up to you!
ii) Yes, Jesus did satisfy the Law and thus became the end of the Law for those who are willing to believe in Him for salvation. If you think that not eating pork and circumcision will help you to fulfill the Law you may do so. However, don’t forget to keep the whole Law (ceremonial and moral) fully i.e. 100%. If you ever be able to fulfill the Law as God expects then you may hope for salvation. I humbly confess before the almighty God that I cannot keep the whole Law up to 100% and that’s why I turned to what God has done for me in Jesus Christ and believed it. That’s how I received salvation. I cannot expect you to understand this and not been able to receive it. Since you don’t understand it you are unable to receive it for the obvious reasons that the Word of God pointed out in Mathew 13:14-15.
4. You wrote, “There are many examples (may be you did not get them on Sam guru’s website): If I start quoting this response will take the form of book, so few to mention.”
My answer:
Then you proceeded to list the names of people in the hadiths. In essence what you say is this:
According to the words of Tirmidhi (hadith) Muhammad knows that several people (names mentioned in the above hadith) will enter into paradise.
But according to the words of Muhammad (the Quran; you believe they are Allah’s words) Muhammad does not know what would happen to him or to his followers. (Sura 46:9)
Looks like Tirmidhi knows better than the Allah of Muhammad! Congratulations for making this very important point.
5. You wrote, “Next point, It is a common saying that Baba Ambedkar gave his life as ransom to backwards and untouchables of India. But how? Please try to know this yourself, you will get answer of your quote, “Matthew 20:28 Even as THE SON OF MAN came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” Do you know about this, “THE SON OF MAN”, that he also cannot help others something similar to you quoted for Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). “Psalm 146 :3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in The Son Of Man, in whom [there is] no help”. KJV Is it also for those “uninitiated” ? but, God forgot (nauzbillah), to mention. May be holy spirit would have inspired “Guru Sam” regarding this.”
My answers:
i) So basically Allah’s ‘ransom’ is something like Ambedkar’s ‘ransom.’ Fatastic! By the way, where in the Bible or Quran it is written that Baba Smbedkar gave his life as ransom to backward and untouchables of Inida? If you really want to understand the concept of ‘ransom’ either in the Quran or in the Bible you need to go to those books, but not to some ‘common sayings.’ In some places it is increasingly becoming common to say ‘Muslim means terrorist’ (excuse me, I myself don’t believe in this statement). According to your reasoning in that place, at least, while reading the Quran if you come across the word ‘Muslim’ you should understand it as ‘terrorists’ because that’s what the ‘common saying’ of that place indicates. Interesting logic! I am sure even other Muslims reject your reasoning.
ii) Regarding ‘THE SON OF MAN’: If you read Psalms 146:3-4 using proper comprehension skills it should not escape your attention that the phrase ‘son of man’ is used in this particular context to represent any human being in general. Whereas, turning to the phrase ‘The Son of Man’ in the New Testament Jesus used it several times in order to refer to himself, but not in general sense (Eg. Matthew 8:20, 11:19, 16:13; Luke 18:31 etc.). This explanation is meant for those who know how to read properly. If you don’t understand it, I give up. Sorry, God’s truth and grace are for those who are in need of them and seek them diligently.
iii) Excuse me, let us not waste our time in resorting to cheap and silly tricks like the way you used in attacking others by calling names and trying to through mud on their websites (The fact that you are reciting Sam Shamoun’s name often, like the word Allah in Namaz, tells me how disturbed you have become by reading the information on his website. I feel sorry for you.)
6. You wrote, “Then you are saying regarding God of love of Bible “1 Timothy2: 3For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” Does it mean this “ALL” does not mean real “all” of English and it included exception of uninitiated.(God again forgot …nauzbillah) Or, uninitiated community comprised of only women, as here it is mentioned , “all MEN” … So, what about God, who is All-knowing, who knows everything whether past, or present or future? And if God says that, He made him for hell or sealed heart, it never means He made him for Hell but declaring that this particular person who is also a God’s creation will go to hell or he will not respond to the call of God (i.e. heart is sealed). Now , you decide that this Quranic God, who is predicting regarding bad people and warning them, is good, or the Biblical God, who showed all miracles and gave the best teaching(of the time) and when they (people like scribes and others) rejected Him, He started playing tricks to push them to the Hell. It is up to you decide.”
My answers:
i) From your above words it is apparent that when Allah says in the Quran, “Many are the Jinns and men WE (Allah) HAVE CREATED FOR HELL” (Sura 7:179) means, according to your own words, “it never means He made him for Hell.” Wow, I am impressed by your claim that you know better than Allah! That means Allah did not mean what he said. Thanks for correcting this statement in the Quran. So, Muslim friends, please read this and understand “Many men we (Allah) have created for hell” means “Many men we (Allah) have never created for hell!!’ By the way, in this aya Allah seems to say that he made many ‘men’ (obviously not women) for hell. But again Bukhari seems to know better than Allah of Muhammad for he wrote, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)” (Sahi Bukhari V1, No.301).
ii) Read this hadith which proves you are wrong in your misinterpretation of the Quran: ‘A’isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah’s Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: ‘A’isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father’s loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father’s loins. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6436).
iii)
(a) In the Bible it is written about God’s preceptive will, “This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, WHO DESIRES ALL MEN (Greek; anthropos) TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1Timothy 2:3-4). By the way, you can check yourself in a Greek Bible dictionary the word ‘anthropos’ means a human being, male or female, without reference to sex or nationality. The same truth can also be seen in other places in the Bible (Eg.Acts 17:30, John 3:6, Titus 2:11, 2Peter 3:9). For your enlightenment let me tell you that the Longman Dictionary (CD version) lists 40 different ways of using the word ‘man.’ One of them is ‘man’=‘person’, either male or female, used especially in formal situations or in the past.’ This explanation is for those who know the usage of dictionaries. If you don’t understand it, don’t worry, I give up. This is not for you, though!
(b) We also see that some of them are deprived of the possibility to be saved (Matthew 13:10-15; Mark 4:11-12). This is taking place only after they were given enough opportunities to be saved which they rejected (Luke 7:30).
iv) You think that God of the Bible started to play tricks on the people and push them to hell. Thanks for displaying the epitome of your ‘reading skills.’ You want to know what is to be termed as ‘playing tricks’? Let us look to your Quran:
“That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah; But they killed him not, nor crucified him. Only a likeness of that was shown to them.” (Sura 4:157) Commenting on this verse the King Fahd Version of the Quran has at its footnote: The Quranic teaching is that Christ was not crucified nor killed by the Jews, notwithstanding certain apparent circumstances which produced that illusion in the minds of some of his enemies:” Implying that Allah himself produced that illusion. Here you can clearly see how Qurnic Allah is playing tricks. Why does he do that? Let us see other ayas that explains why he does that:
“The hypocrites—they seek to deceive Allah. But it is Allah who deceive them.” (Sura 4:142)
“And (the unbelievers) schemed and planned, and Allah schemed (makr=deceitfulness or dishonesty) also, and the best of schemers is Allah. (S. 3:54)
The above two ayas show us that Quranic Allah is the best ‘deceiver’ and ‘schemer.’ With these qualities he can play very good tricks. Therefore it is no wonder Quran has the aya 4:157.
In the light of the above I can’t imagine anybody who loves the truth and God choosing a ‘deceiving and scheming’ Quranic Allah as opposed to the God of the Bible who loves all and desires all to be saved. You chose Qurnic Allah and I chose Biblical God. That itself should speak volumes to others who read these postings.
7. You wrote, “But, at the same time we believe, God is most just (Quran 3: 182. …. certainly, Allâh is never unjust to (His) slaves). He’ll never cheat people. So, we believe that if we have TRUE faith and SINCERE righteous deed, we’ll surely deserve God’s grace (as God is just and He told, these are the ways to be successful and our God can never cheat and He is ALL-KNOWING and ALL POWERFUL).”
My answer:
You think Allah never cheat people. But the Quran is declaring otherwise:
“The hypocrites—they seek to deceive Allah. But it is Allah who deceive them.” (Sura 4:142)
“And (the unbelievers) schemed and planned, and Allah schemed also, and the best of schemers is Allah. (S. 3:54)
Perhaps, deceiving is alright for you, but not cheating! For me both are bad, including scheming. The one true God is not deceiving, cheating or scheming. He is holy and full of love. There is no unrighteousness in him at all. He is light and there is no darkness in Him at all.
8. You wrote, “For a moment, I thought, I might have done mistake. May be, my copy of Bible has some mistake. So, I wanted to clarify my doubt and I googled for downloading Bible from renowned websites and I downloaded two bibles of King James version(most famous and most translated Bible on Earth). And amazingly, both of them read the quotations exactly what I quoted. I’m giving the link of both download site, for you to check yourself.”
My answer:
Before trying to say something please read it properly and understand it properly, only then you can respond to it properly. You wrote so much about the above issue without addressing what I pointed out in your quotation. Looks like you say something just because you have to say something. Let me spoon feed you here:
“But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” KJV
“But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire compassion, not sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” NASV
The issue is not which version or translation is the preferred one here. The issue is about what Jesus meant by saying what he said in this verse. He is not telling that I (Jesus) will have mercy, and not sacrifice (or I desire compassion, not sacrifice). If you look carefully to the words he used prior to these words (But go ye and learn what that meaneth) you should understand that the latter words form the quotation he was alluding to (O.T. Hosea 6:6). Although the Jews to whom he was addressing those words could understand it, people like you NASV may be more helpful to understand. My contention is that you made Jesus’ quotation “I will have mercy, and not sacrifice” (or I desire compassion, not sacrifice) as part of his claim. But in reality that is from prophet Hosea 6:6. That’s where you went wrong and misinterpreted it. Not that you used a ‘wrong’ translation, but you came to a wrong conclusion i.e. Jesus (pbuh) himself told he did not come for sacrifice but mercy (as all prophets). I hope at least now you can see what the issue is here after all.
9. You wrote, “Next, you wrote one word (i.e. one true God), for which I love you and for this I forgave you, for your false allegation on me. And pray God for your forgiveness and guidance. Be sincere, and see how God forgives you. And, as you told “one true God ”be judge between me and you. Brother I also pray the same but with little addition that He makes us understand also that “one true God” means “one true God” not “three true Gods”.
My answer:
That’s right, there is only One God and He is the true God. That’s what God’s word the Bible reiterates. Christians don’t believe in ‘three true Gods.’ Only misguided can think that we, Christians, believe in three Gods. The misguided also think that Christians believe Mary to be a god. That’s hilarious! We can’t expect more than this from an ‘illiterate’ and ‘misinformed’ person.
10. You wrote, “I have already accepted that Mohammad (pbuh ) had limited knowledge [Like Jesus (pbuh)as I already quoted to you]. And, now little elaboration regarding prophets having power of intercession.”
My answer:
Quranic Allah says in the Quran:
And warn therewith those who fear they shall be mustered to their Lord; they have, apart from God, NO protector and no intercessor; haply they will be godfearing. S. 6:51
God is He that created the heavens and the earth, and what between them is, in six days, then seated Himself upon the Throne. Apart from Him, you have NO protector neither mediator; will you not remember? S. 32:4
Muhammad says in the same Quran:
“Say, ‘I am not different from other messengers. I have no idea what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is revealed to me. I am no more than a profound warner.’” (Sura 46:9)
The same is also said about Muhammad in the following hadith:
Narrated Kharija bin Zaid bin Thabit:
Um Al-‘Ala an Ansari woman who had given the Pledge of allegiance to Allah’s Apostle said, “‘Uthman bin Maz’un came in our share when the Ansars drew lots to distribute the emigrants (to dwell) among themselves, He became sick and we looked after (nursed) him till he died. Then we shrouded him in his clothes. Allah’s Apostle came to us, I (addressing the dead body) said, “May Allah’s Mercy be on you, O Aba As-Sa’ib! I testify that Allah has honored you.” The Prophet said, ‘How do you know that?’ I replied, ‘I do not know, by Allah.’ He said, ‘As for him, death has come to him and I wish him all good from Allah. By Allah, though I am Allah’s Apostle, I neither know what will happen to me, nor to you.’” Um Al-‘Ala said, “By Allah, I will never attest the righteousness of anybody after that.” She added, “Later I saw in a dream, a flowing spring for ‘Uthman. So I went to Allah’s Apostle and mentioned that to him. He said, ‘That is (the symbol of) his good deeds (the reward for) which is going on for him.’” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 145)
It is so clear in the above ayas that Muhammad does not even know what would happen to him or to you. In addition, apart from him (Allah) you have no protector neither mediator. Please show me in the Quran which sura and aya that says “you will have Muhammad as mediator.” If you can only show that information from a hadith that only implies that the hadith writer knows better than Quranic Allah.
Wishing you the best,
Looking forward to your next posting…
Brother, you are flowing in prejudices and many a times losing nerves like your other team mates at sakshi and foul speaking guru, Sam. May God guide you to “All truth” (i.e. Islam), through the teachings of the holy (rather holiest) spirit Mohammad (pbuh), who will abide with us, forever (through his teaching and guidance). Today I got little time, so I thought I will clarify your misconception in “part 2”, but after seeing this quick rebuttal and frustration from you, I thought it better to clear your misconception and expose your deception before moving forward. It is your typical approach to bombard with verses, so that one cannot proceed on the ground and win the war. I would not do the same (i.e. bombardment) rather I would clear the ground with the truth. I have felt that you people belong to the category regarding whom God takes the responsibility of sealing the heart (don’t misunderstand, it is you who is responsible for this, not God. See my last posting), and Jesus(pbuh) talked in parable (matthew 13:13). So, my this post is dedicated to our other Christian brothers who has been deceived from truth. I’m replying in the same sequence as you presented:
1. I love your comment that this story was stupid, even we Muslims also feel the same. That is why, we object to such stupid salvation. May God give you the further understanding of stupidity of this story.
Now regarding hadith related to Jews and Christian going to hell instead of muslims:
First of all I will quote the verse of Quran 17:15 “Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: NO BEARER OF BURDENS CAN BEAR THE BURDEN OF ANOTHER: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning).”
So, it is clear, nobody else will suffer for others. So, what about those hadith which you presented and if taken in literal sense nullifies this verse of Quran. Sometimes, certain wordings of Quran and hadith do look or smell contradicting. For that, Quran says you ask people who has knowledge (true).
Quran 16:43…. So ask of those who know, if you know not.
Here, I have a rebuttal from one brother who responded to Sam guru on the same quotations from where you copied. I think below mentioned explanation is enough, but in case you need detail tell me I will send you the link.
The meaning of this hadith, which you gave, came in the hadith of Abu Hurayrah “Everyone has a house in paradise and a house in hell. So when the believer enters paradise behind him is a disbeliever who enters the hell fire earning it for his disbelief.”
( http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=6396)
It is possible, that the sins being referred here to (the ones that Allah will forgive from the Muslims) is because of the cause of the disbelievers, for if they caused it then it will be removed from the burden of Muslims, by the mercy of Allah, and is placed on the disbelievers, FOR THEY INSTIGATED IT, and whoever instigates a sin, then he would receive a sin on his account for anyone that ever gets affected by it, and God knows best.
Let me give an example to clarify that. Lets say a non Muslim distributes Drugs (addicting) throughout the community. One Muslim happens to get his hands on these drugs and uses it. The Muslim gets a sin. However, the non Muslim gets a sin as well because it was his fault the Muslim is doing it. So, if Allah on the Day of Judgment decides to forgive the Muslim for his sin, he would place it on the non Muslim for his instigation. This does not guarantee that a Muslim who commits a sin because of a non Muslim will automatically get forgiven. No, it is only, if Allah decides to forgive that Muslim. This also applies to Muslims who happen to be the cause of Muslims committing sins as well and DOES NOT ONLY APPLY TO THE NON MUSLIMS ALONE (I agree, Muslims are not fully away from sins but still Christians and others are pioneer in instigating this, latest in the scene is Gay marriage, So, no wonder, if God is pointing them specifically ).
Why Muslim has chance of being forgiven? Because they accepted the Truth. And they have fear for accountability, so, they are repenting to God (unlike Christian brothers, to whom Devil has given the illusion of direct heaven, and reason? “The stupid story”, I mentioned last time). And if one repents Allah will forgive his sins. e.g.
Narrated Abu Dharr:…….He said. “Even If he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft.” I said, “Even it he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and thefts.” He said, “Even If he had committed Illegal sexual intercourse and theft, in spite of Abu Dharr’s dislikeness. Abu ‘Abdullah said, “This is at the time of death or before it IF ONE REPENTS AND REGRETS and says ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’, he will be forgiven his sins.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 717).
I think brother you have also an opportunity to get forgiveness. And God is just.
And God will judge with (justice and) Truth: but those whom (men) invoke besides Him, will not (be in a position) to judge at all. Verily it is God (alone) Who hears and sees (all things). Quran 40:20
So, don’t misunderstand, rather proceed, before it is too late (death approaches you).
It is also said that the reason this statement was said was in order to ensure and relieve the Muslims that the house (as mentioned in hadith above) that they have in hell is now filled. This psychologically relieves the Muslim so that he won’t think that he would need to have the house filled. However, God filled it with a Christian or a Jew. He did not put them there unjustly but JUSTLY BECAUSE OF THEIR DISBELIEF.
2. (i). You did not get the name Ishmael in Quran 37:100-111. Did you get name Abraham in verse 104 and 109? I think it is there in Yusuf Ali translation. And in verse 102, it is indicated that the righteous, who will have to be sacrificed is “his son”. I think you have some basic knowledge of books and have an idea that son will be either Ishamel (Ismael) or Ishaaq (Isaac). You also know the first son was Ismael (born when Abraham was 86 yrs old). So, here neither Ismael nor Isaac mentioned up to verse 111 i.e. “Test of Abraham”. As Ismael was only son at that time , so it is him only. And another proof is verse 112 which you carefully avoided. Why? Because after all these verses of test of Abraham on sacrifice, God is announcing the birth of Isaac (as glad tiding). So it is Ismael without any doubt and has been explained in hadiths regarding this sacrifice. I think a bit of grey matter is enough to see the name of Ismael here.
(ii). I am very happy that this frustrated liar has been appropriately responded by many and in clear term exposed his lies on many websites. I personally enjoy “answering –islam.org” like website as it helps me increase the knowledge of both Islam and comparative religions, as they prompt me for critical study of the facts. And all credit to Mr. Sam and his company, to enable me to expose liars like you with such ease.
(iii). Again, you lied here. I’m pasting your comment and my comment on this page.
Yours- comment 15- point 1- last line:
“If you have hard time understanding ‘GOD DELIVERING US THROUGH INVALUABLE RANSOM’ please read your Quran Sura 37:100-111.”
Mine- comment 17-point1- last few lines:
“Now regarding your statement in this point, ‘GOD DELIVERING US THROUGH INVALUABLE RANSOM’ and you quoted the test of Prophet Abraham and Ismael (pbut) from Quran. Brother did you read that or just copied from Sam Shamoun’s website or from the database of “Sakshi”(in turn also a copy from Sam guru). Where did god mention about the ransom Ismael was supposed to give for peoples (sinners)? This was supposed to be a TEST not that “God wanted to deliver us through invaluable ransom”. Poor understanding (sorry.. copying)?”
Now your objection:
“Please read properly what I wrote first. Don’t ask irrelevant questions. I did not write that GOD MENTIONED ABOUT THE RANSOM OF ISHMAEL WHICH IS MEANT FOR THE PEOPLE.”
Is it not relevant? Only thing you were not sure was Ismael, which I cleared, otherwise, the theme of “God delivering the people though ransom” is there. Please fear God before lying. Sorry, you have already been salvated. It doesn’t matter for you, whether to lie or not as you will make it to heaven. Isn’t it? Brother, but, it does matter to us. We will be accountable for what we say, so I cannot say anything, but the truth.
3. So, to summarize, through your vague connotations, Jesus came to break the law but still fulfilled the law, but how? Through disciples (esp. Paul) and their dream. Didn’t you quote Romans, James and revelations and misquotation of “New law of love” to cover all these, through Jesus. You are an expert manipulator. For you What Paul said is more important than what Jesus said. You forgot this verse of Gospel regarding superiority of master over disciple(unlike your practical belief)“ Matthew 10: 24The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord. ”
4. Brother, you lied again. It is not said by Tirmidhi, rather said by Prophet himself, and statement was preserved through known and confirmed chain of peoples and written by Tirmidhi. It is something similar to Gospels according to John or Mark, which were written many years after going of Jesus, BUT not verified or even if verified no proof to confirm whether Jesus said so, unlike wordings of Prophet Mohammad(pbuh). You got difficulty in accepting this, then, with no rule you can accept any word of Bible. By the way what prophet told is preserved in Hadith, not in Quran, and you asked regarding whether prophets said, so, I had to give the example but after verifying the truthfulness of the statement, not as blind belief as you do. You yourself quoted many hadiths projecting them to be word of Prophet, not as the word of Bukhari. Why? Because you want to win the game at any cost, doesn’t matter even if you have to do wrong (like lying, cheating, misquoting etc.) Something like Paul.
“ 1 corinthians 9:19-22 19For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as WITHOUT LAW, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are WITHOUT LAW”.
Next, you reiterated the same, that Mohammad didn’t know this Mohammad didn’t know that. I think even person with even lower than normal IQ will understand if he reads my explanation, I redirect you to read that – this page only- comment 14- point 5 & comment 17 – point 7.
5. (i). Brother, you again failed to understand the meaning of “gave his life as ransom for people” or “sacrificed his life for people”. These are proverbs commonly used to glorify the service of certain dedicated personalities. It has nothing to do with common belief of muslim –terrorist or Christian-rapist. I’ m sure, even a foolish Christian will understand these idioms.
(ii). Brother, this is “the son of man” not “a son of man” or “man” i.e. general human being. The son of man has been used in Bible in multiple places, even in old testament to indicate Jesus and has been differentiated from normal human being. e.g in old testament,
“Job 25: 4 How then can man be righteous before God? How can he who is born of woman be clean? 5 Behold, even the moon is not bright and the stars are not clean in his sight; 6 how much less MAN, who is a maggot, and THE SON OF MAN, who is a worm!”
You can clearly see a general “man” is different from “the son of man” i.e. Jesus.
I think it would clear your misunderstanding. You can’t fool everybody with your deception. It indicates Jesus only and now, ask your guru again regarding helpless Jesus of “Psalm 146 :3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in The Son Of Man, in whom [there is] no help”.
(iii). I am pointing his (Sam) name because you peoples throughout, on this website boasting of him and use his materials thoroughly to keep your existence. Brother, in Christianity, Devil can carry God, but in Islam devil is a rejected thing and we quite often take names of devil also, but only to invoke God’s rejection from him (Auzobillahe minash-shaitane rajim). So, taking the name of Devil is allowed in Islam, doesn’t matter even if it is frequent. It is even rewarding. I am doing the same, rejecting his deceptive devilish propaganda through truth and invoking God’s grace for the same.
6. (i). I think you need to re-read my crystal clear explanation of this topic. Comment 17 point 5 (i).
And prophet Mohammad had the information about future (as much as God gave him).
(ii). Yes, God can do it as He is all knowing (even future).
(iii) You have problem in understanding the language, you believe one to be three, son of God to be literal begotten son of God (as if sired by God, nauzbillah), logos means God, “All” means not “All”, “I do not desire sacrifice” means “I desire sacrifice but you need not” etc. etc. So, it was just a sort of interrogation that “man” does mean “person” or “man” only. If so, I gave the comment, and if not, I asked why “All” man doesn’t mean “All” man (“1 Timothy2: 3For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” ) and God is playing trick to push those people to Hell. You evaded the question intelligently. So, I believe, you accepted this contradiction and probably your insinuation and misinterpretation.
One more interesting point in this verse ( “Mark 4: 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND [THEIR] SINS SHOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM.” )i.e. Jesus is talking in parables so that they may get guided. Don’t you think, that it is clear that God didn’t want to give FURTHER opportunity to them (even in this world of tests), opposite to your claim (lie). May be you can speak better than Jesus (nauzbillah). By the way Jesus was talking in parable and telling regarding his intention of pushing them to hell (not the word trick but explanatory and practical trick). And what you are doing for Quran is manipulating and playing with certain Arabic word God used for Himself, which when used for human doesn’t have good meaning. There is world of difference if you introspect properly.
(iv) &
7.
After evading the topic you are trying to justify the same by misquoting and misinterpreting the verses of Quran. If God doesn’t want to make a thing evident to us, it is His wish, it is not cheating. If my wife has a beautiful diamond jewelry and she doesn’t show to peoples, is it cheating? Or, if she goes to public gathering, wearing similar jewelry but of ordinary crystal, is she cheating? It is her wish. If God didn’t want Jesus to be “evidently not crucified”, it is up to Him. We don’t think it to be cheating, rather God’s wish. Why didn’t your God appear to everybody after getting resurrected? Why was he appearing to few peoples here and there? Was this resurrected God fearing his death again? or in your language, he was cheating people?
And you tried to stir your another favorite topic, i.e. vocabularies related to Allah. Brother, “Makr” or any other such words have been wrongly understood and presented by you, donot hold the same meaning as for human. Other words which seems to be good looking also, hold the same position e.g. “salat” (God sending salat on prophet Quran 33:56) or Allah’s face , image, knowledge etc. are not the same as for human. You need an eye of “imaan” to see them. Accept the truth of one God, you will see their proper meaning. Gate is opened for you, any time, it is, inshallah, never late enough in this worldly life, that God will deceive you and push you to hell or He will talk to you in parables for the same. It is a big topic. I just gave a point here. May God guide you. It has been explained by many peoples. If you need further explanation, tell me inshallah I will give you good recommendations. So, the problem is your anthropomorphizing intellect, not Quran and Arabic. We Muslims understand it very well, what does it mean when it is for God and what it means when used for human, something the word “HE” for human is different from word “HE” used for God. You need 6 feet tall human like structure to understand “HE” for God. And that’s what you did to God by making him perfect Human..? Jesus. Nauzbillah.
8. Alhamdulillah, at last you agreed that the verse I quoted was not wrong, only conclusion was wrong. But you didn’t say so last time. Your wordings:
“Let me QUOTE IT PROPERLY for others to see so that they too can understand what you have done in your (mis)interpretation of Matthew 9:13:
But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Better late than never. Now, I will reveal the basis of this logical conclusion. Your bible is saying that Jesus came to fulfill the law and not abolish the law, And many verses in “The law” confirming sacrifice of animals ( e.g. Leviticus 17:11), and even Mary did so on the birth of Jesus . Then, Jesus is saying that he desires mercy and not sacrifice. How will anybody accept that he wants to abolish the law and related sacrifice when he himself is rejecting. So, evidently “this sacrifice”(in matthew 9:13) does not indicate the sacrifice of animals rather Jesus’ own supposed sacrifice which God made known to the people through him and still preserved in Bible, as proof. And Jesus is speaking clearly that he will not have sacrifice. It is a clear misinterpretation and mis-presentation. Now regarding “Hosea 6:6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings.” (RSV)
Where is it mentioned that , this verse is saying about prohibition of sacrifice? Yes these two type of sacrifices are mentioned but in two different ways. And it is clear that, sacrifice (like that of Jesus) is not desired instead mercy is desired and burnt offering ( sacrifice)Is not desired rather than knowledge of God is desired.
Even if Jesus is pointing towards this verse (hosea 6:6) meaning does not change. Hope you got the point. And, for the argument sake suppose even if Jesus was referring to Hosea in your way (though illogical) and confirming the abolishment of sacrifice (like burnt offering), then why Mary did so on birth of Jesus ( Luke 2:24). And, also Jesus is again abolishing the law and this time even Paul is not supporting him (Acts 21:23-26).
Amazing mess-up!
9. One person is reading “ONE” as “ONE” and another reading “ONE” as “THREE”. Now, you(reader) decide, who is illiterate and misinformed?
10. I already explained beautifully that all power belongs to Allah and He can give it to anybody (whether Mohammad or Jesus or others), as He wishes. Same, for intercession and I gave a quotation. But probably it didn’t satisfy you).
I think you need more quotations to accept my point:
Quran 2:255 …… Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth?…….
Quran 10:3 …. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (hath been obtained). …
Quran 19:87 None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from (God) Most Gracious.
Quran 20:109 On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (God) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him.
Quran 34:23 No intercession can avail in His Presence, except for those for whom He has granted permission.
I think, now, you can see the truth of my explanation. For details you re-read my comments properly and ask me if you have objection in the explanation rather than reiterating the same statement or bombing 10 more similar verses to hide your face.
( this page only- comment 14- point 5 & comment 17 – point 7)
May God guide you and me to the truth.
Brother, you are flowing in prejudices and many a times losing nerves like your other team mates at sakshi and foul speaking guru, Sam. May God guide you to “All truth” (i.e. Islam), through the teachings of the holy (rather holiest) spirit Mohammad (pbuh), who will abide with us, forever (through his teaching and guidance). Today I got little time, so I thought I will clarify your misconception in “part 2”, but after seeing this quick rebuttal and frustration from you, I thought it better to clear your misconception and expose your deception before moving forward. It is your typical approach to bombard with verses, so that one cannot proceed on the ground and win the war. I would not do the same (i.e. bombardment) rather I would clear the ground with the truth. I have felt that you people belong to the category regarding whom God takes the responsibility of sealing the heart (don’t misunderstand, it is you who is responsible for this, not God. See my last posting), and Jesus(pbuh) talked in parable (matthew 13:13). So, my this post is dedicated to our other Christian brothers who has been deceived from truth. I’m replying in the same sequence as you presented:
1. I love your comment that this story was stupid, even we Muslims also feel the same. That is why, we object to such stupid salvation. May God give you the further understanding of stupidity of this story.
Now regarding hadith related to Jews and Christian going to hell instead of muslims:
First of all I will quote the verse of Quran 17:15 “Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: NO BEARER OF BURDENS CAN BEAR THE BURDEN OF ANOTHER: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning).”
So, it is clear, nobody else will suffer for others. So, what about those hadith which you presented and if taken in literal sense nullifies this verse of Quran. Sometimes, certain wordings of Quran and hadith do look or smell contradicting. For that, Quran says you ask people who has knowledge (true).
Quran 16:43…. So ask of those who know, if you know not.
Here, I have a rebuttal from one brother who responded to Sam guru on the same quotations from where you copied. I think below mentioned explanation is enough, but in case you need detail, tell me I will send you the link.
The meaning of this hadith, (which you gave), came in the hadith of Abu Hurayrah “Everyone has a house in paradise and a house in hell. So when the believer enters paradise behind him is a disbeliever who enters the hell fire earning it for his disbelief.”
( http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=63965)
It is possible, that the sins being referred here to (the ones that Allah will forgive from the Muslims) is BECAUSE OF THE CAUSE OF THE DISBELIEVERS, for if they caused it then it will be removed from the burden of Muslims, by the mercy of Allah, and is placed on the disbelievers, FOR THEY INSTIGATED IT, and whoever instigates a sin, then he would receive a sin on his account for anyone that ever gets affected by it, and God knows best.
Let me give an example to clarify that. Lets say a non Muslim distributes Drugs (addicting) throughout the community. One Muslim happens to get his hands on these drugs and uses it. The Muslim gets a sin. However, the non Muslim gets a sin as well because it was his fault the Muslim is doing it. So, if Allah on the Day of Judgment decides to forgive the Muslim for his sin, he would place it on the non Muslim for his instigation. This does not guarantee that a Muslim who commits a sin because of a non Muslim will automatically get forgiven. No, it is only, if Allah decides to forgive that Muslim. This also applies to Muslims who happen to be the cause of Muslims committing sins as well and DOES NOT ONLY APPLY TO THE NON MUSLIMS ALONE (I agree, Muslims are not fully away from sins but still Christians and others are pioneer in instigating this, latest in the scene is Gay marriage, So, no wonder, if God is pointing them specifically ).
Why, Muslim has chance of being forgiven? Because, they accepted the Truth. And they have fear for accountability, so, they are repenting to God (unlike Christian brothers, to whom Devil has given the illusion of direct heaven, and reason? “The stupid story”, I mentioned last time). And if one repents Allah will forgive his sins. e.g.
Narrated Abu Dharr:…….He said. “Even If he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft.” I said, “Even it he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and thefts.” He said, “Even If he had committed Illegal sexual intercourse and theft, in spite of Abu Dharr’s dislikeness. Abu ‘Abdullah said, “This is at the time of death or before it IF ONE REPENTS AND REGRETS and says ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’, he will be forgiven his sins.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 717).
I think brother you have also an opportunity to get forgiveness. And God is just.
And God will judge with (justice and) Truth: but those whom (men) invoke besides Him, will not (be in a position) to judge at all. Verily it is God (alone) Who hears and sees (all things). Quran 40:20
So, don’t misunderstand, rather proceed, before it is too late (death approaches you).
It is also said that the reason this statement was said was in order to ensure and relieve the Muslims that the house (as mentioned in hadith above) that they have in hell is now filled. This psychologically relieves the Muslim so that he won’t think that he would need to have the house filled. However, God filled it with a Christian or a Jew. He did not put them there unjustly but JUSTLY BECAUSE OF THEIR DISBELIEF.
2. (i). You did not get the name Ishmael in Quran 37:100-111. Did you get name Abraham in verse 104 and 109? I think, it is there in Yusuf Ali translation(which you have). And in verse 102, it is indicated that “the righteous”, who will have to be sacrificed is “his son”. I think you have some basic knowledge of books and have an idea that son will be either Ishamel (Ismael) or Ishaaq (Isaac). You also know the first son was Ismael (born when Abraham was 86 yrs old). So, here neither Ismael nor Isaac mentioned up to verse 111 i.e. “Test of Abraham”. As Ismael was only son at that time , so it is him only. And another proof is verse 112 which you carefully avoided. Why? Because after all these verses of test of Abraham on sacrifice, God is announcing the birth of Isaac (as glad tiding). So it is Ismael without any doubt and has been explained in hadiths regarding this sacrifice. I think a bit of grey matter is enough to see the name of Ismael here.
(ii). I am very happy that this frustrated liar has been appropriately responded by many and in clear term, exposed his lies on many websites. I personally enjoy “answering –islam.org” like website as it helps me increase the knowledge of both Islam and comparative religions, as they prompt me for critical study of the facts. And all credit to Mr. Sam and his company, to enable me to expose liars like you with such ease.
(iii). Again, you lied here. I’m pasting your comment and my comment on this page.
YOURS- comment 15- point 1- last line:
“If you have hard time understanding ‘GOD DELIVERING US THROUGH INVALUABLE RANSOM’ please read your Quran Sura 37:100-111.”
MINE- comment 17-point1- last few lines:
“Now regarding your statement in this point, ‘GOD DELIVERING US THROUGH INVALUABLE RANSOM’ and you quoted the test of Prophet Abraham and Ismael (pbut) from Quran. Brother did you read that or just copied from Sam Shamoun’s website or from the database of “Sakshi”(in turn also a copy from Sam guru). Where did god mention about the ransom Ismael was supposed to give for peoples (sinners)? This was supposed to be a TEST not that “God wanted to deliver us through invaluable ransom”. Poor understanding (sorry.. copying)?”
Now your objection:
“Please read properly what I wrote first. Don’t ask irrelevant questions. I did not write that GOD MENTIONED ABOUT THE RANSOM OF ISHMAEL WHICH IS MEANT FOR THE PEOPLE.”
Is it not relevant? Only thing you were not sure was Ismael, which I cleared, otherwise, the theme of “God delivering the people though ransom” is there. Please fear God before lying. Sorry, you have already been salvated. It doesn’t matter for you, whether to lie or not as you will make it to heaven. Isn’t it? Brother, but, it does matter to us. We will be accountable for what we say, so I cannot say anything, but the truth.
3. So, to summarize, through your vague connotations, Jesus came to break the law but still fulfilled the law, but how? Through disciples (esp. Paul) and their dream. Didn’t you quote Romans, James and revelations and misquotation of “New law of love” to cover all these, through Jesus. You are an expert manipulator. For you, What Paul said is more important than what Jesus said. You forgot this verse of Gospel, regarding superiority of master over disciple(unlike your practical belief)
“Matthew 10: 24The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord. ”
4. Brother, you lied again. It is not said by Tirmidhi, rather said by Prophet himself, and statement was preserved through known and confirmed chain of peoples and written by Tirmidhi. It is something similar to Gospels according to John or Mark, which were written many years after going of Jesus, BUT not verified or even if verified no proof to confirm whether Jesus said so, unlike wordings of Prophet Mohammad(pbuh). You got difficulty in accepting this, then, with no rule you can accept any word of Bible. By the way what prophet told is preserved in Hadith, not in Quran, and you asked regarding whether prophets said?, so, I had to give the example but after verifying the truthfulness of the statement, not as blind belief as you do. You yourself quoted many hadiths projecting them to be word of Prophet, not as the word of Bukhari. Why? Because you want to win the game at any cost, doesn’t matter even if you have to do wrong (like lying, cheating, misquoting etc.) Something like Paul.
“ 1 corinthians 9:19-22 19For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as WITHOUT LAW, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are WITHOUT LAW”.
Next, you reiterated the same, that Mohammad didn’t know this Mohammad didn’t know that. I think even person with even lower than normal IQ will understand if he reads my explanation, I redirect you to read that – this page only- comment 14- point 5 & comment 17 – point 7.
5. (i). Brother, you again failed to understand the meaning of “gave his life as ransom for people” or “sacrificed his life for people”. These are proverbs commonly used to glorify the service of certain dedicated personalities. It has nothing to do with common belief of muslim –terrorist or Christian-rapist. I’ m sure, even a foolish Christian will understand these idioms.
(ii). Brother, this is “the son of man” not “a son of man” or “man” i.e. general human being. The son of man has been used in Bible in multiple places, even in old testament to indicate Jesus and has been differentiated from normal human being. e.g. in old testament,
“Job 25: 4 How then can man be righteous before God? How can he who is born of woman be clean? 5 Behold, even the moon is not bright and the stars are not clean in his sight; 6 how much less MAN, who is a maggot, and THE SON OF MAN, who is a worm!”
You can clearly see a general “man” is different from “the son of man” i.e. Jesus.
I think it would clear your misunderstanding. You can’t fool everybody with your deception. It indicates Jesus only and now, ask your guru again regarding helpless Jesus of “Psalm 146 :3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in The Son Of Man, in whom [there is] no help”.
(iii). I am pointing his (Sam) name because you peoples throughout, on this website boasting of him and use his materials thoroughly to keep your existence. Brother, in Christianity, Devil can carry God, but in Islam devil is a rejected thing and we quite often take names of devil also, but only to invoke God’s rejection from him (Auzobillahe minash-shaitane rajim). So, taking the name of Devil is allowed in Islam, doesn’t matter even if it is frequent. It is even rewarding. I am doing the same, rejecting his deceptive devilish propaganda through truth and invoking God’s grace for the same.
6. (i). I think you need to re-read my crystal clear explanation of this topic. Comment 17 point 5 (i).
And prophet Mohammad had the information about future (as much as God gave him).
(ii). Yes, God can do it as He is all knowing (even future).
(iii) You have problem in understanding the language, you believe one to be three, son of God to be literal begotten son of God (as if sired by God, nauzbillah), logos means God, “All” means not “All”, “I do not desire sacrifice” means “I desire sacrifice but you need not” etc. etc. So, it was just a sort of interrogation that “man” does mean “person” or “man” only. If so, I gave the comment, and if not, I asked why “All” man doesn’t mean “All” man (“1 Timothy2: 3For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” ) and God is playing trick to push those people to Hell. You evaded the question intelligently. So, I believe, you accepted this contradiction and probably your insinuation and misinterpretation.
One more interesting point in this verse ( “Mark 4: 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND [THEIR] SINS SHOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM.” )i.e. Jesus is talking in parables so that they may not get guided. Don’t you think, that it is clear that God didn’t want to give FURTHER opportunity to them (even in this world of tests), opposite to your claim (lie). May be you can speak better than Jesus (nauzbillah). By the way Jesus was talking in parable and telling regarding his intention of pushing them to hell (not the word trick but explanatory and practical trick). And what you are doing for Quran is manipulating and playing with certain Arabic word God used for Himself, which when used for human doesn’t have good meaning. There is world of difference if you introspect properly.
(iv) &
7.
After evading the topic you are trying to justify the same by misquoting and misinterpreting the verses of Quran. If God doesn’t want to make a thing evident to us, it is His wish, it is not cheating. If my wife has a beautiful diamond jewelry and she doesn’t show to peoples, is it cheating? Or, if she goes to public gathering, wearing similar jewelry but of ordinary crystal, is she cheating? It is her wish. If God didn’t want Jesus to be “evidently not crucified”, it is up to Him. We don’t think it to be cheating, rather God’s wish. Why didn’t your God appear to everybody after getting resurrected? Why was he appearing to few peoples here and there? Was this resurrected God fearing his death again? or in your language, he was cheating people?
And you tried to stir your favorite topic, i.e. vocabularies related to Allah. Brother, “Makr” or any other such words have been wrongly understood and presented by you, do not hold the same meaning as for human. Other words which seems to be good looking also, hold the same position e.g. “salat” (God sending salat on prophet Quran 33:56) or Allah’s face , image, knowledge etc. are not the same as for human. You need an eye of “imaan” to see them. Accept the truth of one God, you will see their proper meaning. Gate is opened for you, any time, it is, inshallah, never late enough in this worldly life, that God will deceive you and push you to hell or He will talk to you in parables for the same. It is a big topic. I just gave a point here. May God guide you. It has been explained by many peoples. If you need further explanation, tell me inshallah I will give you good recommendations. So, the problem is your anthropomorphizing intellect, not Quran and Arabic. We Muslims understand it very well, what does it mean when it is for God and what it means when used for human, something the word “HE” for human is different from word “HE” used for God. You need 6 feet tall human like structure to understand “HE” for God. And that’s what you did to God by making him perfect Human..? Jesus. Nauzbillah.
8. Alhamdulillah, at last you agreed that the verse I quoted was not wrong, only conclusion was wrong. But you didn’t say so last time. Your wordings:
“Let me QUOTE IT PROPERLY for others to see so that they too can understand what you have done in your (mis)interpretation of Matthew 9:13:
But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Better late than never. Now, I will reveal the basis of this logical conclusion. Your bible is saying that Jesus came to fulfill the law and not abolish the law, And many verses in “The law” confirming sacrifice of animals ( e.g. Leviticus 17:11), and even Mary did so on the birth of Jesus . Then, Jesus is saying that he desires mercy and not sacrifice. How will anybody accept that he wants to abolish the law and related sacrifice when he himself is rejecting. So, evidently “this sacrifice”(in matthew 9:13) does not indicate the sacrifice of animals rather Jesus’ own supposed sacrifice which God made known to the people through him and still preserved in Bible, as proof. And Jesus is speaking clearly that he will not have sacrifice. It is a clear misinterpretation and mis-presentation on uour part. Now regarding “Hosea 6:6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings.” (RSV)
Where is it mentioned that , this verse is saying about prohibition of sacrifice? Yes, these two type of sacrifices are mentioned but in two different ways. And it is clear that, sacrifice (like that of Jesus) is not desired instead mercy is desired and burnt offering ( sacrifice)Is not desired rather than knowledge of God is desired.
Even if Jesus is pointing towards this verse (hosea 6:6) meaning does not change. Hope you got the point. And, for the argument sake suppose even if Jesus was referring to Hosea in your way (though illogical) and confirming the abolishment of sacrifice (like burnt offering), then why Mary did so on birth of Jesus ( Luke 2:24). And, also Jesus is again abolishing the law and this time even Paul is not supporting him (Acts 21:23-26).
Amazing mess-up!
9. One person is reading “ONE” as “ONE” and another reading “ONE” as “THREE”. Now, you (reader) decide, who is illiterate and misinformed?
10. I already explained beautifully that all power belongs to Allah and He can give it to anybody (whether Mohammad or Jesus or others), as He wishes. Same, for intercession and I gave a quotation. But probably it didn’t satisfy you).
I think you need more quotations to accept my point:
Quran 2:255 …… Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth?…….
Quran 10:3 …. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (hath been obtained). …
Quran 19:87 None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from (God) Most Gracious.
Quran 20:109 On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (God) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him.
Quran 34:23 No intercession can avail in His Presence, except for those for whom He has granted permission.
I think, now, you can see the truth of my explanation. For details you re-read my comments properly and ask me if you have objection in the explanation rather than reiterating the same statement or bombing 10 more similar verses to hide your face.
( this page only- comment 14- point 5 & comment 17 – point 7)
May God guide you and me to the truth.
Reply to Part-2
8.
A teacher wants to punish his one good and obedient student(of course for the fault of others), and the student pleas, and fall down on ground so as to hold the feet of his teacher and prays with the sobbed heart to the teacher not to beat him and says, “let this stick pass from me”. And, showing further politeness, he adds nevertheless not as I will but as you.
And the person who is watching this scene, tells, see, the teacher wanted to punish him, but however student didn’t flinch a bit from facing it. What will you say about this comment? Surely, either his eyes were closed or he is a smart liar.
What deception I did, in quoting the full verse, as it was? Did I give my different interpretation and creating something out of nothing (like you people do). You saw only the second part where he is succumbing to father’s will as obedient one, but how did you say that he didn’t flinch a bit? Is it not the biased religiosity and spiritual blindness? And when I am pointing towards the self evident verse, instead of explaining the situation, you started personal attack on me and alleged me for no fault of mine. And pointing my comments, to be immature. Brother, Your frustration is evident.
Inshallah, by exposing your lies, deception and corruption with relation to Holy book of God, I will be blessed by God.
9.
(i).In first statement you are saying that Jesus’ claim is not limited for time. And by the time you reached the last sentence, changed the color like chameleon and said Jesus’ claim was (limited) from his time onwards to the end of world (not before him). Another deception.
(ii). I’ve explained this topic of “created for hell”, in part 1, beautifully.
(iii). Let me repeat what Peter said and how you alleged me for deception by your misinterpretation.
Acts 10: 34Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in EVERY NATION he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. ( KJV)
I just quoted as it was written. Where did I deceive? If your bible reads contradicting your belief and like deceiving, it is your problem. Don’t blame me. You say, this statement is true but, how? And you explained, “By allowing that man to come to know the true gospel i.e. Jesus, through which he can be saved”. But your claim is false. In the statement, it is written “EVERY NATION”. Did every nation had Jesus to be believed? Or, “every” doesn’t mean “every”, something similar to “one” doesn’t mean “one” but “three” (when comes to God).
Brother, you can’t deceive and escape like this. If you can’t read properly, it is not my problem.
10.
So, according to you the love of Jesus, which was of higher quality was “New Love”, as new commandment. Brother, I think better word should be “Renewed Love” or “Renewed Command”, which does not abolish the old one, rather rejuvenates, or renews the old one. And as you explained , Jesus didn’t abolish the old law rather strengthened it (normal love to “agape”love). So, if in old law it was prohibited to have pork, now you should strengthen it further by being keeping yourself away from swine (it may have another benefit i.e. swine flu will be eradicated). And for circumcision, you may go little higher up may be for few millimeters. Why don’t you try for these types of new laws which complement “agape” of Jesus. And even for new law of LOVE, which came by new name (agape), you are not sincere except for the first word “new”, which you took, to change everything of Jesus (of course letters and dreams of disciple helped you). You are talking of love, new love, agape etc. but it could not reach below your vocal cord. In practice, you are far away. In Christian world today, a person hardly knows his neighbor, they send their parents to “Old age home” and before settling to a wife you need to have an average of seven sexual partners (American statistics) and even after marriage many extra-marital love going along on both sides (?agape). Is it the new commandment? Amazing!
11.
Alhamdulillah, you accepted that you did mistake. And my intention is only this, to make you aware of all intentional or non-intentional mistakes. Guidance is solely in the hand of Lord. And God guides those whom he loves (as said by our last prophet ). May God love you.
So, you accepted that it was a mistake, as your comment was without knowing the topic properly. I believe most of your comments are just an extract from anti-islamic websites. And you don’t have any knowledge of true and beautiful religion of God, which is also the religion of Jesus and religion of Mohammad (pbut). Brother, your new study regarding Prophet also has serious mistakes. I recommend, you take any translation of Quran (you can have translation by Yusuf Ali, or Muhsin Khan), and read from cover to cover but before starting ask from God, for true guidance, because with your brain looking for critical mistakes in Quran rather than guidance, you can’t find any help. As, preconditioning of brain is very important in further understanding and reaction. And in the very first chapter after opening supplication of Quran it is written about one who can get benefit from Quran .
(Quran 2:2 This is the Book (the Qur’ân), whereof there is no doubt, A GUIDANCE TO THOSE WHO ARE AL-MUTTAQÛN [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)]).
First time, when I sat in airplane, I had earache and nausea like, with nothing good. And now after having repeated exposure I am used to it. Now, I don’t even feel I had a long trip. If prophet Mohammad (pbuh), who was a human being like us (Quran 18:110 Say (O Muhammad ): “I am only a man like you. ..), had experienced some inner tightness and awkwardness with a new phenomenon of revelation on him and with time he got used to it. What problem you saw in it? Why do you feel awkward for him. May be, coming of angel and revealing in this way is quite too much for you to digest. I cannot understand, how people with such critical tolerance have no difficulty in accepting real awkward things when mentioned in their book. I think it is biased religiosity. See in Bible, it is written that Satan took God (Jesus, as you believe)..
Matthew 4: 5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
How can you believe Satan will take the God up, and then down, then to mountain and so on and so forth and tempt him (against himself). You don’t get any awkwardness in this. Amazing! And you have serious problem with minor issue of a human getting some chest discomfort or anxiety type of experience when he faces something astonishing, like revelation for first few days. This is called as biased religiosity.
And as Jesus (pbuh)was, even mohammad (pbuh) was selected by God for people and mentioned in many verses e.g.
“Quran 2: 119. Verily, We have sent you (O Muhammad pbuh) with the truth (Islâm), a bringer of glad tidings and a warner .”
And he also showed many miracles e.g. mentioned in quran
Quran 54: 1.The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad pbuh to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon). 2. And if they see a sign, they turn away, and say: “This is continuous magic.” (Tr. By Muhsin Khan ).
Even the poetry of Quran which looks simple to you, was a miracle, as he was an illiterate and this poetry is till now unsurpassed (even incomparable) by any other Arabic poetry.
12.
(i). For my question that, why didn’t Jesus have the knowledge of hour, you referred to the above article “Fallacious Tactic #3.” You are stirring for a rebuttal of a big explanation. So, it goes (still in brief):
Exposing “Fallacious tactic #3”:
Verse in the scene: Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone”
I’m going in the same sequence as author did.
It is you first fallacious assumption that Muslims believe that Jesus will have to come to know. Brother, be clear. When you are saying Jesus as God, we are expecting that he must be knowing everything. There is no question of “coming to know.”
1. You said three categories are mentioned, but we can’t see that. It is clearly written No one knows, not even angel, nor son, but Father. First category is a generalized declaration as “no one”, which you converted deceitfully to “no Human Being”. I checked the original greek, even there, word “Human being” is not mentioned (may be holy spirit guided you? ). This was your second fallacious trick.
You gave many equations to correlate, so there is high chance of difficulty (as was the intention of author, to confuse people). So, I will simplify it further, what author wants to say,
a. Jesus knew everything as Father because they were same (standard statement).
b. Father had the prerogative to ordain the hour so he is different in function but not knowledge. How? As explained by author in point 7, “knowing” is tantamount to “ordaining”. So here, even though written “knows” , it means “ordains”. And supported by the fact that Jesus is already a God and He knows everything, so this knowing is not knowing but ordaining.
Brother, we don’t assume Jesus to be God rather we object this point, by saying He could not be God because he did not know everything. You just reversed your statement that Jesus is God , so he knows everything (yes, you did so, but used beautiful play of words to say your statement, which looks you are proving it). Actually, you failed to prove why Jesus didn’t know the hour (if you don’t bring the equation of Jesus is God in to it). And I have already exposed brother’s another posting on Is Jesus God? My comment as comforter..
http://www.sakshitimes.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=155&Itemid=43
So, in short, brother played fallacious tactic by making word “know” equal to word “ordain”. How? Supernaturally, with the help of holy spirit? Something, similar to “one” is equal to “three”. And if somebody doesn’t accept their, one = three or know= ordain etc., then he doesn’t have matured thinking. Brother, keep your matured thinking with you and fool yourself. Don’t misquote and deceive people with manipulation of word. You can’t escape .
(ii). For Fig tree comment, you said you don’t have time. I can understand. I give you an idea- Sam guru.
13.
May God grant him paradise. What Ahmad Deedat did, was a great service to humanity. He exposed the lies and insinuation done in the Bible to the world and set a trend, which inshallah will bring the end to lies and deception, Christian world has structured. Alhamdulillah, God gave him a real long life, much more than WHO life expectancy in urban world. You have problem with his suffering from stroke from which he died. But we muslim believers , have very clear belief that suffering in this world removes our sins. Do, you believe all those people having chronic disease and sufferings are great sinners. And many sinner who died sudden death were heaven bound (what, if they didn’t believe in sacrifice? Even then?). It is illogical statement, which indicates nothing but disbelief. I also pray to God to give me similar death as of Ahmad Deedat so that I can get time to repent and whatever the sin I did, I pay them here itself and I make it direct to heaven. Amen.
I have seen you people dedicated few pages to Ahmad Deedat and fabricated many lies and deception there. Inshallah, if I get time and opportunity I will expose your tricks.
Now regarding,
“For false Christs and FALSE PROPHETS will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as TO MISLEAD, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I HAVE TOLD YOU IN ADVANCE. If therefore they say to you, ‘BEHOLD, HE IS IN THE DESERT,’ DO NOT GO FORTH, OR, ‘BEHOLD HE IS IN THE INNER ROOMS,’ DO NOT BELIEVE THEM.” (Matthew 24:24-26).
It is a proverb in the form of warning, that many false prophet s will come and whether he comes from desert or inner room, don’t believe them. I think you didn’t see the second part i.e. inner room. I think it sets more on apostle Paul, as He was there from desert of Syria as well as in inner room of also. So, I think it is perfectly setting to your beloved than my beloved.
14.
So, according to you, in Matthew 15:15 , Peter was referring to the parable which is mentioned in verse 10, not verse 14 (even though it is just after verse 14). I think you got the wrong inspiration again. You should read the verse properly. In verse 15, Peter is saying to declare us THIS PARABLE (near one and best suit to verse just before), not THAT PARABLE.
And if you see verse 10, it doesn’t look like parable while verse 14 does.
Verse 10: And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
Verse 14: Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Any foolish can see and decide which verse look likes parable. Brother, in which English, it is taught that proverbs can’t be used as parable. I think you need to brush up your basics and save others from your problematic misinformation.
Another deception failed. Alhamdulillah.
15.
Again you pointed the same proverbial prediction regarding false prophets. So, I think I should clear your facts regarding predictions in Bible, i.e. regarding false and true prophets.
Is it really prophesized in the Bible, regarding Mohammad (pbuh).
Yes.
Old testament:
a. Deuteronomy 18:
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy BRETHREN, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their BRETHREN, LIKE UNTO THEE, AND WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And we know that prophet Mohammad is from lineage of Ismail, brethren of those of lineage of Isaac, i.e. Moses (pbuh) and like Moses in many aspects (most important, non of them were ‘God’ himself, as Jesus is supposed to be and many many similarites. Waiting for your response to give the details)
b. Isaiah 59: 21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, SHALL NOT DEPART OUT OF THY MOUTH, NOR OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THY SEED, NOR OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THY SEED’S SEED, SAITH THE LORD, FROM HENCEFORTH AND FOR EVER.
We know very well Jesus didn’t have children (seed) as he was not married, so it applies to Mohammad (pbuh) only.
New testament:
Jesus is warning, that kingdom of God shall be taken, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mathew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, THE KINGDOM OF GOD SHALL BE TAKEN FROM YOU, AND GIVEN TO A NATION BRINGING FORTH THE FRUITS THEREOF.
It is said that many prophets will come, some will be false and other true. And it is also given, the way to identify the true prophet. So, question of true prophets arise if they are supposed to come. See below,
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: EVERY SPIRIT THAT CONFESSETH THAT JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH IS OF GOD: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
And Mohammad (pbuh) testifies Jesus (pbuh) and fulfills the criteria. See the next section for further detail.
And there is another similar statement, where it is said regarding false prophets and how to identify the true one.
Matthew 7: 15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17EVEN SO EVERY GOOD TREE BRINGETH FORTH GOOD FRUIT; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
See the fruit of teaching of Mohammad (pbuh): gave community who believe in righteous deed, loves to pray and repent to God, away from many sins (mostly, of course with some black sheeps), believes in family values ( mostly), Away from wine( mostly)etc.
Now you see the verse below,
John 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No
And see, what was asked to John the Baptist, by Jews,
1. Are you Christ and John replied, no.
They then said, “What then?” That means, they want to say, what else he could be. And then they asked THREE MORE DIFFERENT POSSIBILITIES(not the synonym of same… see written “what then?”
2. Are you Elias?
3. Are you that prophet?
So, when Jesus came, he accepted to be Christ, and Jesus explained about Elias that he already came. So, what about “That Prophet”. Brother, That is Mohammad (pbuh).
Amazing! so clear predictions regarding Mohammad (pbuh), still you are bringing all those parables of bad peoples or proverbial addresses related to false prophets and try to label on Mohammad (pbuh). In the next section, I am explaining you the further proofs which you could not see. May God give you the vision of truth.
16.
Comforter in bible: In actual greek, word used here is “paraclete”, which has been translated as comforter, but in another place it has been translated as advocate, and was referring to Jesus (pbuh).
“1 john 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:”
Why so? You know better. Yes, to create illusion.
We have four places in New testament, where COMFORTER TO COME IS MENTIONED:
a. John 14:16 And I WILL PRAY THE FATHER, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may ABIDE WITH YOU FOR EVER; 17[Even] THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH; whom the world CANNOT receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
b. John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] THE HOLY GHOST, whom the FATHER WILL SEND in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your REMEMBRANCE, whatsoever I have said unto you.
c. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER, [even] THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, which proceedeth from the Father, HE SHALL TESTIFY OF ME:
d. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for IF I GO NOT AWAY, THE COMFORTER WILL NOT COME unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but YE CANNOT BEAR THEM NOW. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, [THAT] SHALL HE SPEAK: and HE WILL SHEW YOU THINGS TO COME. 14HE SHALL GLORIFY ME: for HE SHALL RECEIVE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW [IT] UNTO YOU. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that HE SHALL TAKE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW [IT] UNTO YOU.
There are many points to be considered:
1. When Jesus will go, he will come (d):
Surely can’t be the holy Ghost (3rd God), as he was present at the time of Jesus and even before Jesus. If so, this condition (when Jesus will go, then only he will come) is useless to mention. It is Mohammad (pbuh), who came after him.
2. Father will send him, and Jesus will request for the same to Father (a,b,c,d):
But in one place it is written that Jesus will send him. Jesus himself cleared , “I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER”. Saying of Jesus, “I will send” does not mean he is sending, rather his arrival to God was the time for comforter to get ready for his job. Let us see an example: There is an office, which works round the clock and has three shifts of duties for staffs. And all the staffs are distributed in different shifts. There is a couple with few children. Husband works in morning shift and wife is in the next shift. So, in the morning, mother is with children. When she leaves for her duty (the second shift), she tells her children that she will send their father after she reaches office. And when she reaches office, her husband comes home to the children. What do you think? She sent him? Yes, due to her arrival, he came back, but it was expected, (not because she sent him). So, it was Mohammad (pbuh) who followed him as messenger.
3. He is the spirit of truth and in one place the holy Ghost (a,b,c,d):
Brother, in greek there is only one word “pneuma” which has been translated as spirit in some place and ghost in other (depends on translator’s taste). So, ghost and spirit is one and the same thing. And spirit word has been used in Bible for even prophet e.g. “1 John 4: 1 Beloved, believe not every SPIRIT, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false PROPHETS are gone out into the world.” So, spirit can be prophet and if the prophet is true and righteous, may be due to this, he is called as “holy” here. So, the spirit is Mohammad (pbuh).
4. Jesus want to go expediently (d), why?
Because Jesus told above – “because they believe not on me”
5. He will come little later, as they “cannot bear him” (d) at that time and He will remind them of the thing which they forgot (“bring all things to your REMEMBRANCE” (b)). I think it is needed to remind, when it is forgotten over time. So, if he had to come soon, where is the question of bringing all things to remembrance, because I hope you know, his disciples were there at that time with his teachings and when people really forgot the message, prophet Mohammad (pbuh ) was sent to remind all those things once again.
6. He will testify Jesus(c) and Glorify Jesus(d).
Proof:
The Quran brought by Mohammad (pbuh) glorifies Jesus:
Quran 3:45 “…his name will be the Messiah ‘Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allâh.”
Muhammad (pbuh) also glorified Jesus: e.g. Saheeh al- bukhari vol 4 hadith no. 644
“The Prophet said, “If anyone testifies that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is Allah’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, Allah will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few.”
7. What will he (comforter) do:
i. HE WILL REPROVE THE WORLD OF SIN, AND OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND OF JUDGMENT (d):
Proof: whole life of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)and his teachings. See, the whole of Saudi Arabia doesn’t have one shop of wine in this present world. When it comes to charity, if not every, at least most of the muslim (who is eligible) give 2.5 % of their saving to poor. We have our blacksheeps in all fields, but still we are the best when comes righteousness, remembering God, being away from sin. In Muslim community, if somebody drinks, he is projected out as bad person, while at the same time in the Christian world, if somebody doesn’t drink is thought to be odd man. Amazing!
And, he perfected the worship of one true God.
“Quran 5:72 They do blaspheme who say: “(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.”
ii. WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, [THAT] SHALL HE SPEAK (d):
And similar message, in deutronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH; AND HE SHALL SPEAK UNTO THEM ALL THAT I SHALL COMMAND HIM.
And Quran testifies this.
“Quran 53: 3 Neither does he speak out of his own desire: 4 that [which he conveys to you] is but [a divine] inspiration with which he is being inspired.”.
iii. HE WILL BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU (b):
See, for example:
The words of the Quran 5:72 “…while the Messiah had said, ‘O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’”
This Quran reminds people of the first and greatest command of Jesus that they have forgotten:
“The first of all the commandments is, ‘Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.’” (Mark 12:29)
iv. HE WILL SHEW YOU THINGS TO COME(d):
The Quran Testifies and many verses of Quran and prophetic hadith give such information.
Quran 12:102:“That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal, [O Muhammad], to you…”
Saheeh al- Bukhari vol 8 hadith no. 601:
“ Narrated Hudhaifa: The Prophet once delivered a speech in front of us wherein he left nothing but mentioned (about) everything that would happen till the Hour. Some of us stored that our minds and some forgot it. (After that speech) I used to see events taking place (which had been referred to in that speech) but I had forgotten them (before their occurrence). Then I would recognize such events as a man recognizes another man who has been absent and then sees and recognizes him.”
v. WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, BECAUSE IT SEETH HIM NOT, NEITHER KNOWETH HIM (a):
Peoples like you, testify this statement.
vi. HE SHALL TAKE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW [IT] UNTO YOU (d):
And even Quran says so:
Quran 61:6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!”
And whatever was there with Jesus (ALL THINGS OF GOD for people), was given to Mohammad(pbuh).
Quran 3:3 It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur’ân) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it…
vii. HE WILL ABIDE WITH YOU FOR EVER (a):
.. meaning his original teachings will remain forever. Muhammad (pbuh) was God’s last prophet to humanity. His teachings are perfectly preserved. He lives in the hearts and minds of his adoring followers who worship God in his exact imitation.
Brother, you made me write a lot. I think your all doubts would have been cleared. Regarding “comforter” you posed few questions, but for clarification, I touched all those points along with some more different aspects (still in brief). If you have any doubt regarding any point, ask me, instead of posing 10 new hadiths or verses, and deluding from topic and switching to different topics.
May God guide you and me to the truth.
Reply to Part-2
8.
A teacher wants to punish his one good and obedient student(of course for the fault of others), and the student pleas, and fall down on ground so as to hold the feet of his teacher and prays with the sobbed heart to the teacher not to beat him and says, “let this stick pass from me”. And, showing further politeness, he adds nevertheless not as I will but as you.
And the person who is watching this scene, tells, see, the teacher wanted to punish him, but however student didn’t flinch a bit from facing it. What will you say about this comment? Surely, either his eyes were closed or he is a smart liar.
What deception I did, in quoting the full verse, as it was? Did I give my different interpretation and creating something out of nothing (like you people do). You saw only the second part where he is succumbing to father’s will as obedient one, but how did you say that he didn’t flinch a bit? Is it not the biased religiosity and spiritual blindness? And when I am pointing towards the self evident verse, instead of explaining the situation, you started personal attack on me and alleged me for no fault of mine. And pointing my comments, to be immature. Brother, Your frustration is evident.
Inshallah, by exposing your lies, deception and corruption with relation to Holy book of God, I will be blessed by God.
9.
(i).In first statement you are saying that Jesus’ claim is not limited for time. And by the time you reached the last sentence, changed the color like chameleon and said Jesus’ claim was (limited) from his time onwards to the end of world (not before him). Another deception.
(ii). I’ve explained this topic of “created for hell”, in part 1, beautifully.
(iii). Let me repeat what Peter said and how you alleged me for deception by your misinterpretation.
Acts 10: 34Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in EVERY NATION he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. ( KJV)
I just quoted as it was written. Where did I deceive? If your bible reads contradicting your belief and like deceiving, it is your problem. Don’t blame me. You say, this statement is true but, how? And you explained, “By allowing that man to come to know the true gospel i.e. Jesus, through which he can be saved”. But your claim is false. In the statement, it is written “EVERY NATION”. Did every nation had Jesus to be believed? Or, “every” doesn’t mean “every”, something similar to “one” doesn’t mean “one” but “three” (when comes to God).
Brother, you can’t deceive and escape like this. If you can’t read properly, it is not my problem.
10.
So, according to you the love of Jesus, which was of higher quality was “New Love”, as new commandment. Brother, I think better word should be “Renewed Love” or “Renewed Command”, which does not abolish the old one, rather rejuvenates, or renews the old one. And as you explained , Jesus didn’t abolish the old law rather strengthened it (normal love to “agape”love). So, if in old law it was prohibited to have pork, now you should strengthen it further by being keeping yourself away from swine (it may have another benefit i.e. swine flu will be eradicated). And for circumcision, you may go little higher up may be for few millimeters. Why don’t you try for these types of new laws which complement “agape” of Jesus. And even for new law of LOVE, which came by new name (agape), you are not sincere except for the first word “new”, which you took, to change everything of Jesus (of course letters and dreams of disciple helped you). You are talking of love, new love, agape etc. but it could not reach below your vocal cord. In practice, you are far away. In Christian world today, a person hardly knows his neighbor, they send their parents to “Old age home” and before settling to a wife you need to have an average of seven sexual partners (American statistics) and even after marriage many extra-marital love going along on both sides (?agape). Is it the new commandment? Amazing!
11.
Alhamdulillah, you accepted that you did mistake. And my intention is only this, to make you aware of all intentional or non-intentional mistakes. Guidance is solely in the hand of Lord. And God guides those whom he loves (as said by our last prophet ). May God love you.
So, you accepted that it was a mistake, as your comment was without knowing the topic properly. I believe most of your comments are just an extract from anti-islamic websites. And you don’t have any knowledge of true and beautiful religion of God, which is also the religion of Jesus and religion of Mohammad (pbut). Brother, your new study regarding Prophet also has serious mistakes. I recommend, you take any translation of Quran (you can have translation by Yusuf Ali, or Muhsin Khan), and read from cover to cover but before starting ask from God, for true guidance, because with your brain looking for critical mistakes in Quran rather than guidance, you can’t find any help. As, preconditioning of brain is very important in further understanding and reaction. And in the very first chapter after opening supplication of Quran it is written about one who can get benefit from Quran .
(Quran 2:2 This is the Book (the Qur’ân), whereof there is no doubt, A GUIDANCE TO THOSE WHO ARE AL-MUTTAQÛN [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)]).
First time, when I sat in airplane, I had earache and nausea like, with nothing good. And now after having repeated exposure I am used to it. Now, I don’t even feel I had a long trip. If prophet Mohammad (pbuh), who was a human being like us (Quran 18:110 Say (O Muhammad ): “I am only a man like you. ..), had experienced some inner tightness and awkwardness with a new phenomenon of revelation on him and with time he got used to it. What problem you saw in it? Why do you feel awkward for him. May be, coming of angel and revealing in this way is quite too much for you to digest. I cannot understand, how people with such critical tolerance have no difficulty in accepting real awkward things when mentioned in their book. I think it is biased religiosity. See in Bible, it is written that Satan took God (Jesus, as you believe)..
Matthew 4: 5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
How can you believe Satan will take the God up, and then down, then to mountain and so on and so forth and tempt him (against himself). You don’t get any awkwardness in this. Amazing! And you have serious problem with minor issue of a human getting some chest discomfort or anxiety type of experience when he faces something astonishing, like revelation for first few days. This is called as biased religiosity.
And as Jesus (pbuh)was, even mohammad (pbuh) was selected by God for people and mentioned in many verses e.g.
“Quran 2: 119. Verily, We have sent you (O Muhammad pbuh) with the truth (Islâm), a bringer of glad tidings and a warner .”
And he also showed many miracles e.g. mentioned in quran
Quran 54: 1.The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad pbuh to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon). 2. And if they see a sign, they turn away, and say: “This is continuous magic.” (Tr. By Muhsin Khan ).
Even the poetry of Quran which looks simple to you, was a miracle, as he was an illiterate and this poetry is till now unsurpassed (even incomparable) by any other Arabic poetry.
12.
(i). For my question that, why didn’t Jesus have the knowledge of hour, you referred to the above article “Fallacious Tactic #3.” You are stirring for a rebuttal of a big explanation. So, it goes (still in brief):
Exposing “Fallacious tactic #3”:
Verse in the scene: Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone”
I’m going in the same sequence as author did.
It is you first fallacious assumption that Muslims believe that Jesus will have to come to know. Brother, be clear. When you are saying Jesus as God, we are expecting that he must be knowing everything. There is no question of “coming to know.”
1. You said three categories are mentioned, but we can’t see that. It is clearly written No one knows, not even angel, nor son, but Father. First category is a generalized declaration as “no one”, which you converted deceitfully to “no Human Being”. I checked the original greek, even there, word “Human being” is not mentioned (may be holy spirit guided you? ). This was your second fallacious trick.
You gave many equations to correlate, so there is high chance of difficulty (as was the intention of author, to confuse people). So, I will simplify it further, what author wants to say,
a. Jesus knew everything as Father because they were same (standard statement).
b. Father had the prerogative to ordain the hour so he is different in function but not knowledge. How? As explained by author in point 7, “knowing” is tantamount to “ordaining”. So here, even though written “knows” , it means “ordains”. And supported by the fact that Jesus is already a God and He knows everything, so this knowing is not knowing but ordaining.
Brother, we don’t assume Jesus to be God rather we object this point, by saying He could not be God because he did not know everything. You just reversed your statement that Jesus is God , so he knows everything (yes, you did so, but used beautiful play of words to say your statement, which looks you are proving it). Actually, you failed to prove why Jesus didn’t know the hour (if you don’t bring the equation of Jesus is God in to it). And I have already exposed brother’s another posting on Is Jesus God? My comment as comforter..
http://www.sakshitimes.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=155&Itemid=43
So, in short, brother played fallacious tactic by making word “know” equal to word “ordain”. How? Supernaturally, with the help of holy spirit? Something, similar to “one” is equal to “three”. And if somebody doesn’t accept their, one = three or know= ordain etc., then he doesn’t have matured thinking. Brother, keep your matured thinking with you and fool yourself. Don’t misquote and deceive people with manipulation of word. You can’t escape .
(ii). For Fig tree comment, you said you don’t have time. I can understand. I give you an idea- Sam guru.
13.
May God grant him paradise. What Ahmad Deedat did, was a great service to humanity. He exposed the lies and insinuation done in the Bible to the world and set a trend, which inshallah will bring the end to lies and deception, Christian world has structured. Alhamdulillah, God gave him a real long life, much more than WHO life expectancy in urban world. You have problem with his suffering from stroke from which he died. But we muslim believers , have very clear belief that suffering in this world removes our sins. Do, you believe all those people having chronic disease and sufferings are great sinners. And many sinner who died sudden death were heaven bound (what, if they didn’t believe in sacrifice? Even then?). It is illogical statement, which indicates nothing but disbelief. I also pray to God to give me similar death as of Ahmad Deedat so that I can get time to repent and whatever the sin I did, I pay them here itself and I make it direct to heaven. Amen.
I have seen you people dedicated few pages to Ahmad Deedat and fabricated many lies and deception there. Inshallah, if I get time and opportunity I will expose your tricks.
Now regarding,
“For false Christs and FALSE PROPHETS will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as TO MISLEAD, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I HAVE TOLD YOU IN ADVANCE. If therefore they say to you, ‘BEHOLD, HE IS IN THE DESERT,’ DO NOT GO FORTH, OR, ‘BEHOLD HE IS IN THE INNER ROOMS,’ DO NOT BELIEVE THEM.” (Matthew 24:24-26).
It is a proverb in the form of warning, that many false prophet s will come and whether he comes from desert or inner room, don’t believe them. I think you didn’t see the second part i.e. inner room. I think it sets more on apostle Paul, as He was there from desert of Syria as well as in inner room of also. So, I think it is perfectly setting to your beloved than my beloved.
14.
So, according to you, in Matthew 15:15 , Peter was referring to the parable which is mentioned in verse 10, not verse 14 (even though it is just after verse 14). I think you got the wrong inspiration again. You should read the verse properly. In verse 15, Peter is saying to declare us THIS PARABLE (near one and best suit to verse just before), not THAT PARABLE.
And if you see verse 10, it doesn’t look like parable while verse 14 does.
Verse 10: And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
Verse 14: Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Any foolish can see and decide which verse look likes parable. Brother, in which English, it is taught that proverbs can’t be used as parable. I think you need to brush up your basics and save others from your problematic misinformation.
Another deception failed. Alhamdulillah.
15.
Again you pointed the same proverbial prediction regarding false prophets. So, I think I should clear your facts regarding predictions in Bible, i.e. regarding false and true prophets.
Is it really prophesized in the Bible, regarding Mohammad (pbuh).
Yes.
Old testament:
a. Deuteronomy 18:
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy BRETHREN, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their BRETHREN, LIKE UNTO THEE, AND WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And we know that prophet Mohammad is from lineage of Ismail, brethren of those of lineage of Isaac, i.e. Moses (pbuh) and like Moses in many aspects (most important, non of them were ‘God’ himself, as Jesus is supposed to be and many many similarites. Waiting for your response to give the details)
b. Isaiah 59: 21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, SHALL NOT DEPART OUT OF THY MOUTH, NOR OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THY SEED, NOR OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THY SEED’S SEED, SAITH THE LORD, FROM HENCEFORTH AND FOR EVER.
We know very well Jesus didn’t have children (seed) as he was not married, so it applies to Mohammad (pbuh) only.
New testament:
Jesus is warning, that kingdom of God shall be taken, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mathew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, THE KINGDOM OF GOD SHALL BE TAKEN FROM YOU, AND GIVEN TO A NATION BRINGING FORTH THE FRUITS THEREOF.
It is said that many prophets will come, some will be false and other true. And it is also given, the way to identify the true prophet. So, question of true prophets arise if they are supposed to come. See below,
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: EVERY SPIRIT THAT CONFESSETH THAT JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH IS OF GOD: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
And Mohammad (pbuh) testifies Jesus (pbuh) and fulfills the criteria. See the next section for further detail.
And there is another similar statement, where it is said regarding false prophets and how to identify the true one.
Matthew 7: 15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17EVEN SO EVERY GOOD TREE BRINGETH FORTH GOOD FRUIT; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
See the fruit of teaching of Mohammad (pbuh): gave community who believe in righteous deed, loves to pray and repent to God, away from many sins (mostly, of course with some black sheeps), believes in family values ( mostly), Away from wine( mostly)etc.
Now you see the verse below,
John 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No
And see, what was asked to John the Baptist, by Jews,
1. Are you Christ and John replied, no.
They then said, “What then?” That means, they want to say, what else he could be. And then they asked THREE MORE DIFFERENT POSSIBILITIES(not the synonym of same… see written “what then?”
2. Are you Elias?
3. Are you that prophet?
So, when Jesus came, he accepted to be Christ, and Jesus explained about Elias that he already came. So, what about “That Prophet”. Brother, That is Mohammad (pbuh).
Amazing! so clear predictions regarding Mohammad (pbuh), still you are bringing all those parables of bad peoples or proverbial addresses related to false prophets and try to label on Mohammad (pbuh). In the next section, I am explaining you the further proofs which you could not see. May God give you the vision of truth.
16.
Comforter in bible: In actual greek, word used here is “paraclete”, which has been translated as comforter, but in another place it has been translated as advocate, and was referring to Jesus (pbuh).
“1 john 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:”
Why so? You know better. Yes, to create illusion.
We have four places in New testament, where COMFORTER TO COME IS MENTIONED:
a. John 14:16 And I WILL PRAY THE FATHER, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may ABIDE WITH YOU FOR EVER; 17[Even] THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH; whom the world CANNOT receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
b. John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] THE HOLY GHOST, whom the FATHER WILL SEND in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your REMEMBRANCE, whatsoever I have said unto you.
c. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER, [even] THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, which proceedeth from the Father, HE SHALL TESTIFY OF ME:
d. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for IF I GO NOT AWAY, THE COMFORTER WILL NOT COME unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but YE CANNOT BEAR THEM NOW. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, [THAT] SHALL HE SPEAK: and HE WILL SHEW YOU THINGS TO COME. 14HE SHALL GLORIFY ME: for HE SHALL RECEIVE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW [IT] UNTO YOU. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that HE SHALL TAKE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW [IT] UNTO YOU.
There are many points to be considered:
1. When Jesus will go, he will come (d):
Surely can’t be the holy Ghost (3rd God), as he was present at the time of Jesus and even before Jesus. If so, this condition (when Jesus will go, then only he will come) is useless to mention. It is Mohammad (pbuh), who came after him.
2. Father will send him, and Jesus will request for the same to Father (a,b,c,d):
But in one place it is written that Jesus will send him. Jesus himself cleared , “I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER”. Saying of Jesus, “I will send” does not mean he is sending, rather his arrival to God was the time for comforter to get ready for his job. Let us see an example: There is an office, which works round the clock and has three shifts of duties for staffs. And all the staffs are distributed in different shifts. There is a couple with few children. Husband works in morning shift and wife is in the next shift. So, in the morning, mother is with children. When she leaves for her duty (the second shift), she tells her children that she will send their father after she reaches office. And when she reaches office, her husband comes home to the children. What do you think? She sent him? Yes, due to her arrival, he came back, but it was expected, (not because she sent him). So, it was Mohammad (pbuh) who followed him as messenger.
3. He is the spirit of truth and in one place the holy Ghost (a,b,c,d):
Brother, in greek there is only one word “pneuma” which has been translated as spirit in some place and ghost in other (depends on translator’s taste). So, ghost and spirit is one and the same thing. And spirit word has been used in Bible for even prophet e.g. “1 John 4: 1 Beloved, believe not every SPIRIT, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false PROPHETS are gone out into the world.” So, spirit can be prophet and if the prophet is true and righteous, may be due to this, he is called as “holy” here. So, the spirit is Mohammad (pbuh).
4. Jesus want to go expediently (d), why?
Because Jesus told above – “because they believe not on me”
5. He will come little later, as they “cannot bear him” (d) at that time and He will remind them of the thing which they forgot (“bring all things to your REMEMBRANCE” (b)). I think it is needed to remind, when it is forgotten over time. So, if he had to come soon, where is the question of bringing all things to remembrance, because I hope you know, his disciples were there at that time with his teachings and when people really forgot the message, prophet Mohammad (pbuh ) was sent to remind all those things once again.
6. He will testify Jesus(c) and Glorify Jesus(d).
Proof:
The Quran brought by Mohammad (pbuh) glorifies Jesus:
Quran 3:45 “…his name will be the Messiah ‘Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allâh.”
Muhammad (pbuh) also glorified Jesus: e.g. Saheeh al- bukhari vol 4 hadith no. 644
“The Prophet said, “If anyone testifies that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is Allah’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, Allah will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few.”
7. What will he (comforter) do:
i. HE WILL REPROVE THE WORLD OF SIN, AND OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND OF JUDGMENT (d):
Proof: whole life of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)and his teachings. See, the whole of Saudi Arabia doesn’t have one shop of wine in this present world. When it comes to charity, if not every, at least most of the muslim (who is eligible) give 2.5 % of their saving to poor. We have our blacksheeps in all fields, but still we are the best when comes righteousness, remembering God, being away from sin. In Muslim community, if somebody drinks, he is projected out as bad person, while at the same time in the Christian world, if somebody doesn’t drink is thought to be odd man. Amazing!
And, he perfected the worship of one true God.
“Quran 5:72 They do blaspheme who say: “(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.”
ii. WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, [THAT] SHALL HE SPEAK (d):
And similar message, in deutronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH; AND HE SHALL SPEAK UNTO THEM ALL THAT I SHALL COMMAND HIM.
And Quran testifies this.
“Quran 53: 3 Neither does he speak out of his own desire: 4 that [which he conveys to you] is but [a divine] inspiration with which he is being inspired.”.
iii. HE WILL BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU (b):
See, for example:
The words of the Quran 5:72 “…while the Messiah had said, ‘O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’”
This Quran reminds people of the first and greatest command of Jesus that they have forgotten:
“The first of all the commandments is, ‘Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.’” (Mark 12:29)
iv. HE WILL SHEW YOU THINGS TO COME(d):
The Quran Testifies and many verses of Quran and prophetic hadith give such information.
Quran 12:102:“That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal, [O Muhammad], to you…”
Saheeh al- Bukhari vol 8 hadith no. 601:
“ Narrated Hudhaifa: The Prophet once delivered a speech in front of us wherein he left nothing but mentioned (about) everything that would happen till the Hour. Some of us stored that our minds and some forgot it. (After that speech) I used to see events taking place (which had been referred to in that speech) but I had forgotten them (before their occurrence). Then I would recognize such events as a man recognizes another man who has been absent and then sees and recognizes him.”
v. WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, BECAUSE IT SEETH HIM NOT, NEITHER KNOWETH HIM (a):
Peoples like you, testify this statement.
vi. HE SHALL TAKE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW [IT] UNTO YOU (d):
And even Quran says so:
Quran 61:6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!”
And whatever was there with Jesus (ALL THINGS OF GOD for people), was given to Mohammad(pbuh).
Quran 3:3 It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur’ân) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it…
vii. HE WILL ABIDE WITH YOU FOR EVER (a):
.. meaning his original teachings will remain forever. Muhammad (pbuh) was God’s last prophet to humanity. His teachings are perfectly preserved. He lives in the hearts and minds of his adoring followers who worship God in his exact imitation.
Brother, you made me write a lot. I think your all doubts would have been cleared. Regarding “comforter” you posed few questions, but for clarification, I touched all those points along with some more different aspects (still in brief). If you have any doubt regarding any point, ask me, instead of posing 10 new hadiths or verses, and deluding from topic and switching to different topics.
May God guide you and me to the truth.
My dear friend Mr.Muslim comforter,
Thanks for your above reply which is long, but very clear in mirroring your desperation and frustration. First, let our readers judge our postings. Since you cannot address the real issues in a consistent way you resorted to name calling such as ‘flowing in prejudices,’ ‘expert manipulator,’ ‘foul speaking guru’ and ‘frustrated liar’ etc. When you can’t answer or address satisfactorily what do you do? You resort to name calling and mud throwing. What do they indicate?! D&F. You fancy that you are winning the war, yet displaying desperation and frustration! No deluded person while loosing the war will admit it, especially those who have reputation for willing to kill their own kin and kith for the sake of honor and the devil, much less you. In any case, my dear frustrated-desperate-so-called-war-winning Muslim, as the follower of the Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you for the false accusations and cheap name calling tactics. May the Lord bring you into His marvelous light from your present darkness of which your are blissfully ignorant.
1.
You wrote:
“I love your comment that this story was stupid, even we Muslims also feel the same. That is why, we object to such stupid salvation. May God give you the further understanding of stupidity of this story.
Now regarding hadith related to Jews and Christian going to hell instead of muslims: (I am leaving out another stupid story you wrote here) … The meaning of this hadith, which you gave, came in the hadith of Abu Hurayrah “Everyone has a house in paradise and a house in hell. So when the believer enters paradise behind him is a disbeliever who enters the hell fire earning it for his disbelief.” … Why Muslim has chance of being forgiven? Because they accepted the Truth. And they have fear for accountability, so, they are repenting to God (unlike Christian brothers, to whom Devil has given the illusion of direct heaven, and reason? “The stupid story”, I mentioned last time). And if one repents Allah will forgive his sins… It is also said that the reason this statement was said was in order to ensure and relieve the Muslims that the house (as mentioned in hadith above) that they have in hell is now filled. This psychologically relieves the Muslim so that he won’t think that he would need to have the house filled. However, God filled it with a Christian or a Jew. He did not put them there unjustly but JUSTLY BECAUSE OF THEIR DISBELIEF.”
I respond:
a) Like the stupid story you had written before, you added few more stupid stories here. Who believes these stupid stories except stupids! I am amused even stupids need some critique here. No problem!
b) I would be surprised if you object to the ‘stupid salvation’ you find in Islam, but if you call biblical ‘salvation’ a stupid salvation I fully understand. The reason is clearly given in the Bible, “For the word of the cross is TO THOSE WHO ARE PERISHING FOOLISHNESS, but to those who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1Cor.1:18).
c) PLEASE LET ME ask one simple question: how do you get salvation or forgiveness of sins according to Islam? (a) Through good deeds alone or (b) faith alone or (c) mercy of Allah alone or (d) some of these or (e) all of these? I will assure the readers some entertaining discussion on this topic once I receive the answer from you, provided if you have a clear answer, though!
d) In the above stupid story (basically most of the hadith stories are stupid stories) you quoted ‘everyone has a house in paradise and a house in hell.’ Both houses are presumably built by Quranic Allah. But one of the stupid stories says that Allah has created some to paradise and some to hell while they were in their father’s loins (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6436). If Allah had created those who are fit to go to paradise while they were in their father’s loins why did Allah create houses for them in hell or vice versa? In the same way, if Allah had created those who are going to hell while they were in their father’s loins why did he create houses in Paradise? Just to confuse Muhammad or Muslims or those who go there? Before any thinking person call this story one of the ‘funniest stupid stories’ please let me know your ‘enlightened’ answer. Probably that would save it from the ‘funniest stupid stories’ category.
2.
You wrote:
“Again, you lied here. I’m pasting your comment and my comment on this page.
Yours- comment 15- point 1- last line: “If you have hard time understanding ‘GOD DELIVERING US THROUGH INVALUABLE RANSOM’ please read your Quran Sura 37:100-111.”
I respond:
Please consult a proper dictionary before you use words like ‘lie’ or ‘liar.’ In the above words of mine my only mistake is to overestimate your reading skills. I regret it profusely. Let me try to clear your confusion first. If I said, “‘God delivering us through invaluable ransom’ is written in your Quran Sura 37:100-111” then it would be a lie or at least a misunderstanding. But that’s not what I wrote. I expected you to understand the simple implication of my quotation of the Sura 37:100-111 in order to understand the concept of ‘delivering us through invaluable ransom.’ I only realized your problem later. So accept my apologies. In Sura 37:100-111 one can read how Allah tested Abraham and in that incident Allah delivered Abraham’s son (Isaac) from the impending death by providing an invaluable ransom in his place. In the same way, in order to deliver us from the impending judgment God provided an invaluable ransom (the atoning death of Lord Jesus Christ). That’s all. If you don’t understand this I give up! For your failure to understand this simple connection if you call me a ‘liar’ I forgive you and may God also forgive you.
3.
You wrote:
“So, to summarize, through your vague connotations, Jesus came to break the law but still fulfilled the law, but how? Through disciples (esp. Paul) and their dream. Didn’t you quote Romans, James and revelations and misquotation of “New law of love” to cover all these, through Jesus. You are an expert manipulator. For you What Paul said is more important than what Jesus said. You forgot this verse of Gospel regarding superiority of master over disciple (unlike your practical belief)“ Matthew 10: 24The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord.”
I respond:
Due to your poor reading skills you summarized that Jesus came to break the law! This is even after I clearly showed that He came not to abolish but to fulfill the law. Then you went on to vent your hatred on the apostle Paul. The whole Bible is God’s word. God used more than 40 different prophets and apostles to write the Bible. Paul is one of them. Before coming into the light of Christ Paul was a religious fanatic like today’s Islamic Terrorists. But his eyes were opened and his sins were forgiven and he became a transformed person. God used him to write a part of the scripture. So what’s the problem?
If a pagan, confused, suicidal, bewitched, lewd, cruel person writes some borrowed poetry with the help of followers and claims that it is from Allah you accept such a person as the last prophet and his book as God’s revelation. But if God uses a former religious fanatic after his conversion to write a part of His revelation you have problems to accept it. What a logic? Hats off to your rationality! As if that is not enough you turn to thousands of ‘stupid stories’ written by Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi, Nasai and Madja which fly in the face of reason and even common sense, and accept them as standard of your life! Worst still, what they wrote after around 200 years of Muhammad’s death is more important for you than the so-called Allah’s words in the Quran. In essence, what 9th century Muslim wrote you accept as Muhammad’s words and what Muhammad himself said you accept as Allah’s words. How can I expect any better than this?!
4.
Your wrote:
“Next, you reiterated the same, that Mohammad didn’t know this Mohammad didn’t know that. I think even person with even lower than normal IQ will understand if he reads my explanation, I redirect you to read that – this page only- comment 14- point 5 & comment 17 – point 7.”
I respond:
Alright, others have normal IQ, but you have abnormal IQ. I agree! Please read the following again and try to understand the problem I raised…
According to Muhammad’s Quran
Allah says, ““Say, ‘I am not different from other messengers. I have no idea what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is revealed to me. I am no more than a profound warner.’” (Sura 46:9)
In this aya Allah is informing that Muhammad doesn’t know what will happen to him or to his followers.
According to Tirmidhi’s s.stories
Muhammad says, ““Abu Bakr will be in Paradise, ‘Umar will be in Paradise, ‘Uthmaan will be in Paradise, ‘Ali will be in Paradise, Talhah will be in Paradise, al-Zubayr will be in Paradise, ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf will be in Paradise, Sa’d will be in Paradise, Sa’eed will be in Paradise, and Abu ‘Ubaydah ibn al-Jarraah will be in Paradise.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 3680)
According to this s.story Muhammad does know what will happen to his followers!
Now the question is who knows better? Is it Allah of the Quran or Muhammad of Hadiths? Allah says Muhammad does not know, but Muhammad says ‘I know.’ The so-called-war-winning Muslim comforter says ‘I believe what Muhammad said’ as opposed to what Allah said. This is funny and interesting. Thanks for Islamic clarity!
5.
You wrote:
“These are proverbs commonly used to glorify the service of certain dedicated personalities. It has nothing to do with common belief of muslim –terrorist or Christian-rapist.”
I respond:
So you mentioned about ‘Christian-rapist.’ If there is any so-called Christian involved in ‘rape’ I openly declare that he is a pervert, deluded and served the purpose of the devil. How about the ‘master rapist’? Please check the details for yourself at http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/rapist.htm Do you have the guts to say the same things about him? May God grant it to you.
6.
You wrote:
“You have problem in understanding the language, you believe one to be three, son of God to be literal begotten son of God (as if sired by God, nauzbillah), logos means God, “All” means not “All”, “I do not desire sacrifice” means “I desire sacrifice but you need not etc.”
I respond:
Thanks for displaying your intelligence by your above rants! Let me quote the verses in succession so that the readers can decide who have the problem in understanding the language.
According to the Muhammad’s Quran Allah says, ““Many are the Jinns and men WE (Allah) HAVE CREATED FOR HELL” (Sura 7:179)
According to Muslim’s s.story Muhammad also says: ‘A’isha … God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father’s loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father’s loins. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6436)
At least here both Quranic Allah and Hadith Muhammad agree that Allah creates some for hell even before they were born. But the so-called-war-winning Muslim comforter says (he seems to know better than Allah and Muhammad), “it never means He made him for Hell”
Now the question is who is telling the truth? What Quranic Allah and Hadith Muhmmad say or what the war-winning Muslim Comforter says? Let the readers decide, if they can.
7.
You wrote:
“And you tried to stir your another favorite topic, i.e. vocabularies related to Allah. Brother, “Makr” or any other such words have been wrongly understood and presented by you, donot hold the same meaning as for human. Other words which seems to be good looking also, hold the same position e.g. “salat” (God sending salat on prophet Quran 33:56) or Allah’s face , image, knowledge etc. are not the same as for human.”
I respond:
So you want me to believe according to your Quran whenever descriptive words, adjectives or adverbs are used for Allah they don’t mean the same as they should? Alright, by this you want me to believe ‘Makr’ means not makr. Salat means not salat. He means not he. Knowledge means no knowledge etc. etc. This is very interesting. So basically all these words that are used for Allah in the Quran have non-human meanings. According to your own words, “We Muslims understand it very well, what does it mean when it is for God and what it means when used for human.” Wow, you can understand even the non-human word meanings. Perhaps you understand them because you are a ‘non-human’ being! May be you can tell us what does the non-human meaning of the phrase you Muslims use: “Allah knows better.” Does it mean Allah doesn’t know at all? (Nauzbillah!)
8.
You wrote:
“And, for the argument sake suppose even if Jesus was referring to Hosea in your way (though illogical) and confirming the abolishment of sacrifice (like burnt offering), then why Mary did so on birth of Jesus ( Luke 2:24). And, also Jesus is again abolishing the law and this time even Paul is not supporting him (Acts 21:23-26).”
I respond:
In the future if you show some improvement in your reading/comprehension skills I will answer your above question otherwise my answering would be a pointless exercise.
9. Let me reiterate that God is ONE and Mary is not god. The so-called all knowing Quranic Allah thinks (obviously this is only Muhammad’s fancy) that Christians believe Mary to be a god! So much for all knowing!!
10.
You wrote:
“I already explained beautifully that all power belongs to Allah and He can give it to anybody (whether Mohammad or Jesus or others), as He wishes. Same, for intercession and I gave a quotation. But probably it didn’t satisfy you).I think you need more quotations to accept my point”
I respond:
Alright, let me quote what the Quranic Allah seems to say…
First, “And warn therewith those who fear they shall be mustered to their Lord; they have, apart from God, NO protector and no intercessor; haply they will be godfearing.” S. 6:51
“Apart from Him, you have NO protector neither mediator; will you not remember?” S. 32:4
Second, “Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth?” S.2:255
“No intercession can avail in His Presence, except for those for whom He has granted permission.” S.34:23
Third, “Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “For every Prophet there is one invocation which is definitely fulfilled by Allah, and I wish, if Allah will, to keep my that (special) invocation as to be the intercession for my followers on the Day of Resurrection.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 566)
Obviously the third point shows us that Muhammad knows better than Allah for Allah said Muhammad does not know. “Say, ‘I am not different from other messengers. I have no idea what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is revealed to me. I am no more than a profound warner.’” (Sura 46:9)
If any important person is making a statement about a fact he/she is expected to be consistent at the least. For example if a person says,
First, “I am the ONLY ONE who is responsible for fulfilling this task.”
Second, “I am responsible for fulfilling this task along with anyone whom I permit.”
Third, “I am responsible for fulfilling this task along with you.”
How do you like this? Don’t you think he is playing with words and talking inconsistently? That’s what the Quranic Allah seems to be doing in the above verses.
Looking forward to reading your next posting…
Adil.
This is the third or fourth time i am pasting my reply of part -2 in last 10 days. You cheaters, if you have guts, be truthful and let my comment appear the same moment not according to your preference, after 10 days or never when it is difficult to hide your face.
I have made you known the truth. It was my duty. Now you cannot say you did not understand the delusion created by disbelievers like Sam around in the scene. Message has been cleared to you. If you have any further doubt, ask me ONE BY ONE. inshallah, i will help you.If you feel shy, on this forum you can personally contact me through my email but ONE BY ONE. In the beginning itself i doubted your filtration system on your site, when comes to comment. may be it is to avoid harm against your false propaganda than some literal using of abusive words even though you yourselves are more abusive when you deal with faith of other peoples and their beliefs of prophets and God. I challenge you to be fair and post my comment the very next moment instead of taking days to read few pages by a whole team of people and if harmful to your propaganda block them. Post my comment and wait for the reply of this posting and in future. But don’t expect me that i would waste my time to people, who is running far, to face me. First, you post my last comment and then wait for an appropriate reply from me. if you don’t post my comment i will take it as your defeat of your false beliefs. But still i will pray for God’s guidance to you. I’m pasting my last comment again.
Reply to Part-2
8.
A teacher wants to punish his one good and obedient student(of course for the fault of others), and the student pleas, and fall down on ground so as to hold the feet of his teacher and prays with the sobbed heart to the teacher not to beat him and says, “let this stick pass from me”. And, showing further politeness, he adds nevertheless not as I will but as you.
And the person who is watching this scene, tells, see, the teacher wanted to punish him, but however student didn’t flinch a bit from facing it. What will you say about this comment? Surely, either his eyes were closed or he is a smart liar.
What deception I did, in quoting the full verse, as it was? Did I give my different interpretation and creating something out of nothing (like you people do). You saw only the second part where he is succumbing to father’s will as obedient one, but how did you say that he didn’t flinch a bit? Is it not the biased religiosity and spiritual blindness? And when I am pointing towards the self evident verse, instead of explaining the situation, you started personal attack on me and alleged me for no fault of mine. And pointing my comments, to be immature. Brother, Your frustration is evident.
Inshallah, by exposing your lies, deception and corruption with relation to Holy book of God, I will be blessed by God.
9.
(i).In first statement you are saying that Jesus’ claim is not limited for time. And by the time you reached the last sentence, changed the color like chameleon and said Jesus’ claim was (limited) from his time onwards to the end of world (not before him). Another deception.
(ii). I’ve explained this topic of “created for hell”, in part 1, beautifully.
(iii). Let me repeat what Peter said and how you alleged me for deception by your misinterpretation.
Acts 10: 34Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in EVERY NATION he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. ( KJV)
I just quoted as it was written. Where did I deceive? If your bible reads contradicting your belief and like deceiving, it is your problem. Don’t blame me. You say, this statement is true but, how? And you explained, “By allowing that man to come to know the true gospel i.e. Jesus, through which he can be saved”. But your claim is false. In the statement, it is written “EVERY NATION”. Did every nation had Jesus to be believed? Or, “every” doesn’t mean “every”, something similar to “one” doesn’t mean “one” but “three” (when comes to God).
Brother, you can’t deceive and escape like this. If you can’t read properly, it is not my problem.
10.
So, according to you the love of Jesus, which was of higher quality was “New Love”, as new commandment. Brother, I think better word should be “Renewed Love” or “Renewed Command”, which does not abolish the old one, rather rejuvenates, or renews the old one. And as you explained , Jesus didn’t abolish the old law rather strengthened it (normal love to “agape”love). So, if in old law it was prohibited to have pork, now you should strengthen it further by being keeping yourself away from swine (it may have another benefit i.e. swine flu will be eradicated). And for circumcision, you may go little higher up may be for few millimeters. Why don’t you try for these types of new laws which complement “agape” of Jesus. And even for new law of LOVE, which came by new name (agape), you are not sincere except for the first word “new”, which you took, to change everything of Jesus (of course letters and dreams of disciple helped you). You are talking of love, new love, agape etc. but it could not reach below your vocal cord. In practice, you are far away. In Christian world today, a person hardly knows his neighbor, they send their parents to “Old age home” and before settling to a wife you need to have an average of seven sexual partners (American statistics) and even after marriage many extra-marital love going along on both sides (?agape). Is it the new commandment? Amazing!
11.
Alhamdulillah, you accepted that you did mistake. And my intention is only this, to make you aware of all intentional or non-intentional mistakes. Guidance is solely in the hand of Lord. And God guides those whom he loves (as said by our last prophet ). May God love you.
So, you accepted that it was a mistake, as your comment was without knowing the topic properly. I believe most of your comments are just an extract from anti-islamic websites. And you don’t have any knowledge of true and beautiful religion of God, which is also the religion of Jesus and religion of Mohammad (pbut). Brother, your new study regarding Prophet also has serious mistakes. I recommend, you take any translation of Quran (you can have translation by Yusuf Ali, or Muhsin Khan), and read from cover to cover but before starting ask from God, for true guidance, because with your brain looking for critical mistakes in Quran rather than guidance, you can’t find any help. As, preconditioning of brain is very important in further understanding and reaction. And in the very first chapter after opening supplication of Quran it is written about one who can get benefit from Quran .
(Quran 2:2 This is the Book (the Qur’ân), whereof there is no doubt, A GUIDANCE TO THOSE WHO ARE AL-MUTTAQÛN [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)]).
First time, when I sat in airplane, I had earache and nausea like, with nothing good. And now after having repeated exposure I am used to it. Now, I don’t even feel I had a long trip. If prophet Mohammad (pbuh), who was a human being like us (Quran 18:110 Say (O Muhammad ): “I am only a man like you. ..), had experienced some inner tightness and awkwardness with a new phenomenon of revelation on him and with time he got used to it. What problem you saw in it? Why do you feel awkward for him. May be, coming of angel and revealing in this way is quite too much for you to digest. I cannot understand, how people with such critical tolerance have no difficulty in accepting real awkward things when mentioned in their book. I think it is biased religiosity. See in Bible, it is written that Satan took God (Jesus, as you believe)..
Matthew 4: 5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
How can you believe Satan will take the God up, and then down, then to mountain and so on and so forth and tempt him (against himself). You don’t get any awkwardness in this. Amazing! And you have serious problem with minor issue of a human getting some chest discomfort or anxiety type of experience when he faces something astonishing, like revelation for first few days. This is called as biased religiosity.
And as Jesus (pbuh)was, even mohammad (pbuh) was selected by God for people and mentioned in many verses e.g.
“Quran 2: 119. Verily, We have sent you (O Muhammad pbuh) with the truth (Islâm), a bringer of glad tidings and a warner .”
And he also showed many miracles e.g. mentioned in quran
Quran 54: 1.The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad pbuh to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon). 2. And if they see a sign, they turn away, and say: “This is continuous magic.” (Tr. By Muhsin Khan ).
Even the poetry of Quran which looks simple to you, was a miracle, as he was an illiterate and this poetry is till now unsurpassed (even incomparable) by any other Arabic poetry.
12.
(i). For my question that, why didn’t Jesus have the knowledge of hour, you referred to the above article “Fallacious Tactic #3.” You are stirring for a rebuttal of a big explanation. So, it goes (still in brief):
Exposing “Fallacious tactic #3”:
Verse in the scene: Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone”
I’m going in the same sequence as author did.
It is you first fallacious assumption that Muslims believe that Jesus will have to come to know. Brother, be clear. When you are saying Jesus as God, we are expecting that he must be knowing everything. There is no question of “coming to know.”
1. You said three categories are mentioned, but we can’t see that. It is clearly written No one knows, not even angel, nor son, but Father. First category is a generalized declaration as “no one”, which you converted deceitfully to “no Human Being”. I checked the original greek, even there, word “Human being” is not mentioned (may be holy spirit guided you? ). This was your second fallacious trick.
You gave many equations to correlate, so there is high chance of difficulty (as was the intention of author, to confuse people). So, I will simplify it further, what author wants to say,
a. Jesus knew everything as Father because they were same (standard statement).
b. Father had the prerogative to ordain the hour so he is different in function but not knowledge. How? As explained by author in point 7, “knowing” is tantamount to “ordaining”. So here, even though written “knows” , it means “ordains”. And supported by the fact that Jesus is already a God and He knows everything, so this knowing is not knowing but ordaining.
Brother, we don’t assume Jesus to be God rather we object this point, by saying He could not be God because he did not know everything. You just reversed your statement that Jesus is God , so he knows everything (yes, you did so, but used beautiful play of words to say your statement, which looks you are proving it). Actually, you failed to prove why Jesus didn’t know the hour (if you don’t bring the equation of Jesus is God in to it). And I have already exposed brother’s another posting on Is Jesus God? My comment as comforter..
http://www.sakshitimes.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=155&Itemid=43
So, in short, brother played fallacious tactic by making word “know” equal to word “ordain”. How? Supernaturally, with the help of holy spirit? Something, similar to “one” is equal to “three”. And if somebody doesn’t accept their, one = three or know= ordain etc., then he doesn’t have matured thinking. Brother, keep your matured thinking with you and fool yourself. Don’t misquote and deceive people with manipulation of word. You can’t escape .
(ii). For Fig tree comment, you said you don’t have time. I can understand. I give you an idea- Sam guru.
13.
May God grant him paradise. What Ahmad Deedat did, was a great service to humanity. He exposed the lies and insinuation done in the Bible to the world and set a trend, which inshallah will bring the end to lies and deception, Christian world has structured. Alhamdulillah, God gave him a real long life, much more than WHO life expectancy in urban world. You have problem with his suffering from stroke from which he died. But we muslim believers , have very clear belief that suffering in this world removes our sins. Do, you believe all those people having chronic disease and sufferings are great sinners. And many sinner who died sudden death were heaven bound (what, if they didn’t believe in sacrifice? Even then?). It is illogical statement, which indicates nothing but disbelief. I also pray to God to give me similar death as of Ahmad Deedat so that I can get time to repent and whatever the sin I did, I pay them here itself and I make it direct to heaven. Amen.
I have seen you people dedicated few pages to Ahmad Deedat and fabricated many lies and deception there. Inshallah, if I get time and opportunity I will expose your tricks.
Now regarding,
“For false Christs and FALSE PROPHETS will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as TO MISLEAD, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I HAVE TOLD YOU IN ADVANCE. If therefore they say to you, ‘BEHOLD, HE IS IN THE DESERT,’ DO NOT GO FORTH, OR, ‘BEHOLD HE IS IN THE INNER ROOMS,’ DO NOT BELIEVE THEM.” (Matthew 24:24-26).
It is a proverb in the form of warning, that many false prophet s will come and whether he comes from desert or inner room, don’t believe them. I think you didn’t see the second part i.e. inner room. I think it sets more on apostle Paul, as He was there from desert of Syria as well as in inner room of also. So, I think it is perfectly setting to your beloved than my beloved.
14.
So, according to you, in Matthew 15:15 , Peter was referring to the parable which is mentioned in verse 10, not verse 14 (even though it is just after verse 14). I think you got the wrong inspiration again. You should read the verse properly. In verse 15, Peter is saying to declare us THIS PARABLE (near one and best suit to verse just before), not THAT PARABLE.
And if you see verse 10, it doesn’t look like parable while verse 14 does.
Verse 10: And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
Verse 14: Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Any foolish can see and decide which verse look likes parable. Brother, in which English, it is taught that proverbs can’t be used as parable. I think you need to brush up your basics and save others from your problematic misinformation.
Another deception failed. Alhamdulillah.
15.
Again you pointed the same proverbial prediction regarding false prophets. So, I think I should clear your facts regarding predictions in Bible, i.e. regarding false and true prophets.
Is it really prophesized in the Bible, regarding Mohammad (pbuh).
Yes.
Old testament:
a. Deuteronomy 18:
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy BRETHREN, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their BRETHREN, LIKE UNTO THEE, AND WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And we know that prophet Mohammad is from lineage of Ismail, brethren of those of lineage of Isaac, i.e. Moses (pbuh) and like Moses in many aspects (most important, non of them were ‘God’ himself, as Jesus is supposed to be and many many similarites. Waiting for your response to give the details)
b. Isaiah 59: 21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, SHALL NOT DEPART OUT OF THY MOUTH, NOR OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THY SEED, NOR OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THY SEED’S SEED, SAITH THE LORD, FROM HENCEFORTH AND FOR EVER.
We know very well Jesus didn’t have children (seed) as he was not married, so it applies to Mohammad (pbuh) only.
New testament:
Jesus is warning, that kingdom of God shall be taken, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mathew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, THE KINGDOM OF GOD SHALL BE TAKEN FROM YOU, AND GIVEN TO A NATION BRINGING FORTH THE FRUITS THEREOF.
It is said that many prophets will come, some will be false and other true. And it is also given, the way to identify the true prophet. So, question of true prophets arise if they are supposed to come. See below,
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: EVERY SPIRIT THAT CONFESSETH THAT JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH IS OF GOD: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
And Mohammad (pbuh) testifies Jesus (pbuh) and fulfills the criteria. See the next section for further detail.
And there is another similar statement, where it is said regarding false prophets and how to identify the true one.
Matthew 7: 15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17EVEN SO EVERY GOOD TREE BRINGETH FORTH GOOD FRUIT; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
See the fruit of teaching of Mohammad (pbuh): gave community who believe in righteous deed, loves to pray and repent to God, away from many sins (mostly, of course with some black sheeps), believes in family values ( mostly), Away from wine( mostly)etc.
Now you see the verse below,
John 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No
And see, what was asked to John the Baptist, by Jews,
1. Are you Christ and John replied, no.
They then said, “What then?” That means, they want to say, what else he could be. And then they asked THREE MORE DIFFERENT POSSIBILITIES(not the synonym of same… see written “what then?”
2. Are you Elias?
3. Are you that prophet?
So, when Jesus came, he accepted to be Christ, and Jesus explained about Elias that he already came. So, what about “That Prophet”. Brother, That is Mohammad (pbuh).
Amazing! so clear predictions regarding Mohammad (pbuh), still you are bringing all those parables of bad peoples or proverbial addresses related to false prophets and try to label on Mohammad (pbuh). In the next section, I am explaining you the further proofs which you could not see. May God give you the vision of truth.
16.
Comforter in bible: In actual greek, word used here is “paraclete”, which has been translated as comforter, but in another place it has been translated as advocate, and was referring to Jesus (pbuh).
“1 john 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:”
Why so? You know better. Yes, to create illusion.
We have four places in New testament, where COMFORTER TO COME IS MENTIONED:
a. John 14:16 And I WILL PRAY THE FATHER, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may ABIDE WITH YOU FOR EVER; 17[Even] THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH; whom the world CANNOT receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
b. John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] THE HOLY GHOST, whom the FATHER WILL SEND in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your REMEMBRANCE, whatsoever I have said unto you.
c. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER, [even] THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, which proceedeth from the Father, HE SHALL TESTIFY OF ME:
d. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for IF I GO NOT AWAY, THE COMFORTER WILL NOT COME unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but YE CANNOT BEAR THEM NOW. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, [THAT] SHALL HE SPEAK: and HE WILL SHEW YOU THINGS TO COME. 14HE SHALL GLORIFY ME: for HE SHALL RECEIVE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW [IT] UNTO YOU. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that HE SHALL TAKE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW [IT] UNTO YOU.
There are many points to be considered:
1. When Jesus will go, he will come (d):
Surely can’t be the holy Ghost (3rd God), as he was present at the time of Jesus and even before Jesus. If so, this condition (when Jesus will go, then only he will come) is useless to mention. It is Mohammad (pbuh), who came after him.
2. Father will send him, and Jesus will request for the same to Father (a,b,c,d):
But in one place it is written that Jesus will send him. Jesus himself cleared , “I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER”. Saying of Jesus, “I will send” does not mean he is sending, rather his arrival to God was the time for comforter to get ready for his job. Let us see an example: There is an office, which works round the clock and has three shifts of duties for staffs. And all the staffs are distributed in different shifts. There is a couple with few children. Husband works in morning shift and wife is in the next shift. So, in the morning, mother is with children. When she leaves for her duty (the second shift), she tells her children that she will send their father after she reaches office. And when she reaches office, her husband comes home to the children. What do you think? She sent him? Yes, due to her arrival, he came back, but it was expected, (not because she sent him). So, it was Mohammad (pbuh) who followed him as messenger.
3. He is the spirit of truth and in one place the holy Ghost (a,b,c,d):
Brother, in greek there is only one word “pneuma” which has been translated as spirit in some place and ghost in other (depends on translator’s taste). So, ghost and spirit is one and the same thing. And spirit word has been used in Bible for even prophet e.g. “1 John 4: 1 Beloved, believe not every SPIRIT, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false PROPHETS are gone out into the world.” So, spirit can be prophet and if the prophet is true and righteous, may be due to this, he is called as “holy” here. So, the spirit is Mohammad (pbuh).
4. Jesus want to go expediently (d), why?
Because Jesus told above – “because they believe not on me”
5. He will come little later, as they “cannot bear him” (d) at that time and He will remind them of the thing which they forgot (“bring all things to your REMEMBRANCE” (b)). I think it is needed to remind, when it is forgotten over time. So, if he had to come soon, where is the question of bringing all things to remembrance, because I hope you know, his disciples were there at that time with his teachings and when people really forgot the message, prophet Mohammad (pbuh ) was sent to remind all those things once again.
6. He will testify Jesus(c) and Glorify Jesus(d).
Proof:
The Quran brought by Mohammad (pbuh) glorifies Jesus:
Quran 3:45 “…his name will be the Messiah ‘Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allâh.”
Muhammad (pbuh) also glorified Jesus: e.g. Saheeh al- bukhari vol 4 hadith no. 644
“The Prophet said, “If anyone testifies that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is Allah’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, Allah will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few.”
7. What will he (comforter) do:
i. HE WILL REPROVE THE WORLD OF SIN, AND OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND OF JUDGMENT (d):
Proof: whole life of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)and his teachings. See, the whole of Saudi Arabia doesn’t have one shop of wine in this present world. When it comes to charity, if not every, at least most of the muslim (who is eligible) give 2.5 % of their saving to poor. We have our blacksheeps in all fields, but still we are the best when comes righteousness, remembering God, being away from sin. In Muslim community, if somebody drinks, he is projected out as bad person, while at the same time in the Christian world, if somebody doesn’t drink is thought to be odd man. Amazing!
And, he perfected the worship of one true God.
“Quran 5:72 They do blaspheme who say: “(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.”
ii. WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, [THAT] SHALL HE SPEAK (d):
And similar message, in deutronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH; AND HE SHALL SPEAK UNTO THEM ALL THAT I SHALL COMMAND HIM.
And Quran testifies this.
“Quran 53: 3 Neither does he speak out of his own desire: 4 that [which he conveys to you] is but [a divine] inspiration with which he is being inspired.”.
iii. HE WILL BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU (b):
See, for example:
The words of the Quran 5:72 “…while the Messiah had said, ‘O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’”
This Quran reminds people of the first and greatest command of Jesus that they have forgotten:
“The first of all the commandments is, ‘Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.’” (Mark 12:29)
iv. HE WILL SHEW YOU THINGS TO COME(d):
The Quran Testifies and many verses of Quran and prophetic hadith give such information.
Quran 12:102:“That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal, [O Muhammad], to you…”
Saheeh al- Bukhari vol 8 hadith no. 601:
“ Narrated Hudhaifa: The Prophet once delivered a speech in front of us wherein he left nothing but mentioned (about) everything that would happen till the Hour. Some of us stored that our minds and some forgot it. (After that speech) I used to see events taking place (which had been referred to in that speech) but I had forgotten them (before their occurrence). Then I would recognize such events as a man recognizes another man who has been absent and then sees and recognizes him.”
v. WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, BECAUSE IT SEETH HIM NOT, NEITHER KNOWETH HIM (a):
Peoples like you, testify this statement.
vi. HE SHALL TAKE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW [IT] UNTO YOU (d):
And even Quran says so:
Quran 61:6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!”
And whatever was there with Jesus (ALL THINGS OF GOD for people), was given to Mohammad(pbuh).
Quran 3:3 It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur’ân) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it…
vii. HE WILL ABIDE WITH YOU FOR EVER (a):
.. meaning his original teachings will remain forever. Muhammad (pbuh) was God’s last prophet to humanity. His teachings are perfectly preserved. He lives in the hearts and minds of his adoring followers who worship God in his exact imitation.
Brother, you made me write a lot. I think your all doubts would have been cleared. Regarding “comforter” you posed few questions, but for clarification, I touched all those points along with some more different aspects (still in brief). If you have any doubt regarding any point, ask me, instead of posing 10 new hadiths or verses, and deluding from topic and switching to different topics.
May God guide you and me to the truth.
Dear brother, after seeing your this reply I feel I did my job and now you don’t have any explanations of my clarifications and detail logical explanation. Most of the things you accepted (by evading responding to my clear explanations) and as face saving measure you did reiterate the same thing as you had been, even after getting a clear explanation and to fill the space you tried to paste portions of my comments with your illogical face saving, supposed to be response, which I will, inshallah, deal in below paragraphs. If any body is reading from top, he does not even need to see my further explanation to understand your desperation, as all the points almost have been mentioned in great detail with scriptural proofs and evident logic. Now, I will try to expose your further objections, which is actually either a deceptive tactic or reiteration of the same thing, as if you did not see my response.
1. a) Alhamdulillah you again accepted the stupidity of the salvation theory. Of course with some further additions ( inshallah we will see as it comes).
b)The “stupid salvation of Islam” as you believe is the same “salvation of Islam of Jesus and Moses (pbut)”. By the way , regarding
“For the word of the cross is TO THOSE WHO ARE PERISHING FOOLISHNESS, but to those who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1Cor.1:18).
Who said this? Jesus or Paul? This is Paul’s theory of salvation not Jesus. Jesus’ theory of salvation which is same as Islamic, is mentioned by Jesus himself without mentioning that one of my future disciple (Paul) will come and change it through my order or will add to it’s meaning. Rather he cautioned about such person, who may come from desert (as here of Syria) and he may be from INNER ROOM (Matthew 24:24-26). See, how beautifully Jesus predicted about this person which can be no one but Apostle Paul. See the damage he did to religion of Jesus (pbuh). He changed everything, what Jesus taught.
Jesus’ theory of salvation:
“Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, MERCY, and FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”
“Mark 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have FAITH in God.”
“Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in NO CASE enter into the kingdom of heaven”
And we Muslims believe the same i.e. salvation is through belief , righteous deed (involving the law and judgment )and mercy of God encompassing all the aspects.
“Quran 47:2 But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad (pbuh), for it is the truth from their Lord, He will expiate from them their sins, and will make good their state.”
c) To repeat, the theory of salvation of Islam of Mohammad or Jesus was same i.e. Faith and righteous deeds with mercy of God involved thoroughly. Mercy of God does not mean He will kill his son or Himself, for people’s mistakes. It means guidance of his sincere people, directly and through scriptures and prophets and evaluation of the Faith and Good deeds in true sense. Even if a person looks to be very believing and doing righteous good deeds, but actual intention of his actions & beliefs is known to God alone. And decision will be through God’s mercy. I think you have enough quotations (from Sam Guru) to create misconception on this topic and you want to divert the debate from here. O.K. start, I’m ready for your attack. Inshallah, I will be able to clear your misconception once and forever (as before, even if you don’t accept publicly).
d) Brother, I really feel sorry for you. You have severe reading disability. I explained it clearly that GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING, EVEN FUTURE, AND IF HE HAS WRITTEN ABOUT A PERSON”S DESTINATION OF HELL OR HEAVEN, OF COURSE IT IS BECAUSE HE KNOWS THE DEEDS OF THE PEOPLE IN ADVANCE (AS GOD IS ALL KNOWING). SO THEY WILL GO TO HEAVEN OR HELL BECAUSE OF THEIR BEIEF AND DEED NOT BECAUSE GOD WROTE THE SAME. Please read my last comment for further details if you could not see last time.
2. I think you understood that I picked your deception, so you apologized but with your face saving reasoning. So, to expose your deception and prejudices I have to write further esp. regarding why I called you liar with it’s standard meaning.
Your first comment: “ ‘GOD DELIVERING US through invaluable ransom’ please read your Quran Sura 37:100-111.”
Which you changed in this article to
“Allah DELIVERED ABRAHAM’S SON (Isaac? Height of prejudices read Matthew 13:13 ) from the impending death by providing an invaluable ransom in his place.”
You tried to make these sentences same.
Same quotation, but an U-turn. I wanted to say the same, that in this example God is testing Abraham and his son, not that it is something as you tried to misquote that even in Quran, theme of God delivering US though invaluable ransom is there, i.e. atonement of Jesus or it’s parallel story.
So if somebody says that theme of “God is delivering us through ransom” is same as “God delivered Ismael though ransom” are same, it is a lie. First one is so called atonement as by Jesus (delusion prevalent among Christendom) which is objected by Quran (unlike your presentation), and second one is a test of particular prophet (which is agreed by Quran). So, if somebody mis-present and tries to prove illogically, he can be easily called as liar (by standard of any dictionary).
3. I did not say it as my view, rather I presented your mis-presentation that Jesus came to break the law. You accept this that he came to fulfill the law but when it comes to implementation (circumcision, pork etc.), you bring Paul to your help and break the law and impose it on Jesus and say as Jesus fulfilled the law, so that we can break it. I think brother you agree that Jesus was also a prophet, so he came to guide by implementing the laws and showing people to do the same not opposite. So, he forgot to say that it was only for him and people before, you need not obey this rather do opposite.
Brother, why more than 40 authors, not specifically 40 authors or 50 authors. Because, most of others are not known. Isn’t it? See, God didn’t want to preserve the names of his inspired authors, leave the book.
Problem is not with any person like Paul but with his and his followers’ lies.
You again tried to insult our prophet by accusing him of something from which he is free. And, I inform you regarding one message of God through the same messenger that if somebody accuses anybody wrongly the effect will be on that liar. You see the Christendom today (the result of false accusation by them ), filled with paganism (three Gods, Christmas as following of paganic tradition etc), cruelty (killed millions in world war and more than 5lakhs of people in Iraq, more than lakh in Afghanistan and still thirsty of blood ), bewitched with all nonsense like gay marriages and naked protesting females etc, highly suicidal (you can compare the suicide rate in USA and Saudi arabia), confused (made by Jews, they thought and proved Iraq had nuclear bomb but after all these killings, they could not get one, not even remote evidence, confusion?). I think I need not give my comments for “lewdness”, prevalent in Christian world. Don’t you think 13% of Americans involved in incest and very very high incidence of rape rates in Christian world itself is enough to prove their lewdness. These are the details in general and the person like you can yourself evaluate how much you got of them (as a result of falsely accusing an innocent). I am sure, plenty, but I do not expect you to accept it publicly. Try to introspect yourself. And your (Christians’) poetry (scripture) is well proved to be borrowed from stories of Paganism. Brother, when it comes to hadith you say it as stupid and stories of people. But when it comes to give proof (for your mis-thinking) , you will present the evidence from same books, by twisting , misquoting and illogical reasoning.
I inform you again that there is a world of difference when it comes to compare hadith and Gospels. Both were written long after departure of respective prophets. But, we developed “the science of hadith” to filter out the wrong ones in very early stage and you still didn’t , and have to bring new editions every few years with difference of words, verses and even chapters (additions and deletions). And as for the God’s word Quran, Alhamdulillah, still free from single corruption and millions of copy around the world without a difference of a word.( you must be thinking of article of Sam guru on Tahreef of Quran! If you need to get out of delusion of this devilish work, tell me, I will give you link of it’s clear explanation).
4. Same reading problem. I explained clearly All the knowledge belongs to Allah and he gives his people that much knowledge as He wants. Prophets were given many information about future but it does not mean they knew everything. Whether it is Moses or Jesus or Mohammad (pbut) they all had the knowledge of many things at the same time didn’t have knowledge of many things e.g. of season of fig tree is not known to one prophet. I think I have explained it repeatedly. May God give you abilty to read and understand them.
5. I usually avoid reading anti-islamic website, because I can’t control myself from replying them. And I have a very busy schedule and I don’t want to open a new front now. But probably you are referring to Our Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), we can’t expect anything else from you peoples because you know the Muslims will never reciprocate it to Jesus (nauzbillah), so you have a soft target. Brother, polygamy in the form of marriage, is not a prohibition in any scripture and polygamy does not amount to rape. With these criteria you are going against even Solomon, David or Abraham (according to your scriptures) for their polygamy.
I told Christians as rapist in the same way as you people blame and project muslims as terrosists i.e. few perverted peoples of certain faiths defaming the faith. I have reason. You know the rape rate of typical Christian country e.g. South Africa 115.61 per 100,000 population and that of typical Muslim country like Saudi Arabia 0.27 per 100,000 population (in year 2002). Can you see the difference. See yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics
Don’t these data give Christendom an identity of rapist.
6. Explained before in first point. To repeat if God’s saying (in Quran or through hadith of prophet) people made for hell or heart of people are sealed does not mean as they sound literally and Quran explains this. “Comforter” doesn’t need to bring his innovative concept (unlike our Christian brothers). I already quoted and explained but repeating again as you couldn’t understand last time (or you pretend so).
There are many places in Quran where God said that He sealed the heart of peoples or created them for hell. First of all you read this verse of “Quran 63:3 That is because they believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed, so they understand not.”
It is something as teacher says to his student (when student is not following the instruction properly),” I ‘ll give you in written that you will not pass the exam. It doesn’t mean teacher wanted that student to fail or if student really failed, does it mean that, it is teacher who is responsible for his failure (only because he warned so in this style). Teacher told this out of his experience. So, what about God, who is All-knowing, who knows everything whether past, or present or future? And if God says that, He made him for hell or sealed heart, it never means He made him for Hell but declaring that this particular person who is also a God’s creation will go to hell or he will not respond to the call of God (i.e. heart is sealed).
Now , you decide that this Quranic God, who is predicting regarding bad people and warning them, is good, or the Biblical God, who showed all miracles and gave the best teaching(of the time) and when they (people like scribes and others) rejected Him thoroughly, He started playing tricks to push them to the Hell. It is up to you decide.
7. Here you played the tactics again. I never said the word which is used for God is having the OPPOSITE meaning of what it means for human. I said it does not hold the same meaning and scholars of Quran and Arabic has explained their meanings. And you have many such collections ( Arabic word God used for human and himself ) on Sam guru’s website. If you want to know about any specific such word, ask me ONE BY ONE. You tried to deceive people by mis-presenting my explanation of DIFFERENT meaning as OPPOSITE meaning.
i.e. “…..of the phrase you Muslims use: “Allah knows better.” Does it mean Allah doesn’t know at all?”
Don’t you think you need some reading class if not the reading glass. Or, you are just following Guru Paul.
8. Your comment :
“In the future if you show some improvement in your reading/comprehension skills I will answer your above question otherwise my answering would be a pointless exercise. “
You could easily say I have no answers instead of bursting out your frustration.
Alhamdulillah, Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish. Quran 17:81
9. I already explained this on the page 1 of this same article, comment 4. And I’m pasting it here again. i.e. explanation of Quran 5:116.
“Where did Allah say that He is discussing regarding trinity in this verse and trinity includes Mary. This scene is that of the Hereafter where Jesus was presented the condition and beliefs of people (on the name of Jesus) that they even did not mind to elevate Jesus and even Mary to the level of God besides God. Regarding Jesus you would be sure but what about Mary? Yes there are many who have such beliefs you just click this link you will get the answer.
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/omnip.htm
And surely God knows every thing and he cannot err, but certainly, Mr. Prasanna can do and many a times intentionally; first wrong translation of Quran 39: 4 and then misinterpretation (rather mispresentation) of this verse and also of Quran 5:116. This is called as HYPOCRISY.”
10. So, you again tried to mis-present the Quran. I am repeating my explanation.
If God says, He is ALL-POWERFUL and apart from Him or besides Him no protector or mediator or intercessor, what’s wrong in it? It is true. We believe that there is no body BESIDES God or APART FROM God. But it does not mean, there can be no mediator DUE TO HIM (God) .e.g. Suppose, there is a king is having all power in his territory and there is no body besides him in that territory. But, he can give power to judges for sentencing a person. This doesn’t mean that the king lost his power and this judge was in power besides the king, rather it means he (judge in this case) had the power due to king i.e. authorized by king). And, if king will not allow he (judge) can’t do this. So, if God is saying, “He is All- powerful and no mediator BESIDES Him (Quran 6:51)” it is complementing to the God’s word that “He is All-powerful and no body can mediate except by his permission (Quran 19:87)”.
You again mis-presented your inference. Let me correct your inference.
Your example (of a person who says)regarding the above matter should be written like this (as below) instead of your mis-presentation of the same theme.
First, “I am the ONLY ONE who is responsible for fulfilling ALL task.”
Second, “I am responsible for fulfilling ALL task and can give permission to anybody regarding doing any task.”
Third, “ I am responsible for fulfilling ALL task and can give permission to you regarding doing any task.”
How do you like this? Don’t you think you were playing with words and talking improperly? That’s what the Quranic Allah And Biblical God seem to be doing in the above and like verses.
e.g. “John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I SEEK NOT MINE OWN WILL, BUT THE WILL OF THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME.”
May God guide you and me to the truth.
Comforter.
Reply to Part-2
8.
A teacher wants to punish his one good and obedient student(of course for the fault of others), and the student pleas, and fall down on ground so as to hold the feet of his teacher and prays with the sobbed heart to the teacher not to beat him and says, “let this stick pass from me”. And, showing further politeness, he adds nevertheless not as I will but as you.
And the person who is watching this scene, tells, see, the teacher wanted to punish him, but however student didn’t flinch a bit from facing it. What will you say about this comment? Surely, either his eyes were closed or he is a smart liar.
What deception I did, in quoting the full verse, as it was? Did I give my different interpretation and creating something out of nothing (like you people do). You saw only the second part where he is succumbing to father’s will as obedient one, but how did you say that he didn’t flinch a bit? Is it not the biased religiosity and spiritual blindness? And when I am pointing towards the self evident verse, instead of explaining the situation, you started personal attack on me and alleged me for no fault of mine. And pointing my comments, to be immature. Brother, Your frustration is evident.
Inshallah, by exposing your lies, deception and corruption with relation to Holy book of God, I will be blessed by God.
9.
(i).In first statement you are saying that Jesus’ claim is not limited for time. And by the time you reached the last sentence, changed the color like chameleon and said Jesus’ claim was (limited) from his time onwards to the end of world (not before him). Another deception.
(ii). I’ve explained this topic of “created for hell”, in part 1, beautifully.
(iii). Let me repeat what Peter said and how you alleged me for deception by your misinterpretation.
Acts 10: 34Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in EVERY NATION he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. ( KJV)
I just quoted as it was written. Where did I deceive? If your bible reads contradicting your belief and like deceiving, it is your problem. Don’t blame me. You say, this statement is true but, how? And you explained, “By allowing that man to come to know the true gospel i.e. Jesus, through which he can be saved”. But your claim is false. In the statement, it is written “EVERY NATION”. Did every nation had Jesus to be believed? Or, “every” doesn’t mean “every”, something similar to “one” doesn’t mean “one” but “three” (when comes to God).
Brother, you can’t deceive and escape like this. If you can’t read properly, it is not my problem.
10.
So, according to you the love of Jesus, which was of higher quality was “New Love”, as new commandment. Brother, I think better word should be “Renewed Love” or “Renewed Command”, which does not abolish the old one, rather rejuvenates, or renews the old one. And as you explained , Jesus didn’t abolish the old law rather strengthened it (normal love to “agape”love). So, if in old law it was prohibited to have pork, now you should strengthen it further by being keeping yourself away from swine (it may have another benefit i.e. swine flu will be eradicated). And for circumcision, you may go little higher up may be for few millimeters. Why don’t you try for these types of new laws which complement “agape” of Jesus. And even for new law of LOVE, which came by new name (agape), you are not sincere except for the first word “new”, which you took, to change everything of Jesus (of course letters and dreams of disciple helped you). You are talking of love, new love, agape etc. but it could not reach below your vocal cord. In practice, you are far away. In Christian world today, a person hardly knows his neighbor, they send their parents to “Old age home” and before settling to a wife you need to have an average of seven sexual partners (American statistics) and even after marriage many extra-marital love going along on both sides (?agape). Is it the new commandment? Amazing!
11.
Alhamdulillah, you accepted that you did mistake. And my intention is only this, to make you aware of all intentional or non-intentional mistakes. Guidance is solely in the hand of Lord. And God guides those whom he loves (as said by our last prophet ). May God love you.
So, you accepted that it was a mistake, as your comment was without knowing the topic properly. I believe most of your comments are just an extract from anti-islamic websites. And you don’t have any knowledge of true and beautiful religion of God, which is also the religion of Jesus and religion of Mohammad (pbut). Brother, your new study regarding Prophet also has serious mistakes. I recommend, you take any translation of Quran (you can have translation by Yusuf Ali, or Muhsin Khan), and read from cover to cover but before starting ask from God, for true guidance, because with your brain looking for critical mistakes in Quran rather than guidance, you can’t find any help. As, preconditioning of brain is very important in further understanding and reaction. And in the very first chapter after opening supplication of Quran it is written about one who can get benefit from Quran .
(Quran 2:2 This is the Book (the Qur’ân), whereof there is no doubt, A GUIDANCE TO THOSE WHO ARE AL-MUTTAQÛN [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)]).
First time, when I sat in airplane, I had earache and nausea like, with nothing good. And now after having repeated exposure I am used to it. Now, I don’t even feel I had a long trip. If prophet Mohammad (pbuh), who was a human being like us (Quran 18:110 Say (O Muhammad ): “I am only a man like you. ..), had experienced some inner tightness and awkwardness with a new phenomenon of revelation on him and with time he got used to it. What problem you saw in it? Why do you feel awkward for him. May be, coming of angel and revealing in this way is quite too much for you to digest. I cannot understand, how people with such critical tolerance have no difficulty in accepting real awkward things when mentioned in their book. I think it is biased religiosity. See in Bible, it is written that Satan took God (Jesus, as you believe)..
Matthew 4: 5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
How can you believe Satan will take the God up, and then down, then to mountain and so on and so forth and tempt him (against himself). You don’t get any awkwardness in this. Amazing! And you have serious problem with minor issue of a human getting some chest discomfort or anxiety type of experience when he faces something astonishing, like revelation for first few days. This is called as biased religiosity.
And as Jesus (pbuh)was, even mohammad (pbuh) was selected by God for people and mentioned in many verses e.g.
“Quran 2: 119. Verily, We have sent you (O Muhammad pbuh) with the truth (Islâm), a bringer of glad tidings and a warner .”
And he also showed many miracles e.g. mentioned in quran
Quran 54: 1.The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad pbuh to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon). 2. And if they see a sign, they turn away, and say: “This is continuous magic.” (Tr. By Muhsin Khan ).
Even the poetry of Quran which looks simple to you, was a miracle, as he was an illiterate and this poetry is till now unsurpassed (even incomparable) by any other Arabic poetry.
12.
(i). For my question that, why didn’t Jesus have the knowledge of hour, you referred to the above article “Fallacious Tactic #3.” You are stirring for a rebuttal of a big explanation. So, it goes (still in brief):
Exposing “Fallacious tactic #3”:
Verse in the scene: Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone”
I’m going in the same sequence as author did.
It is you first fallacious assumption that Muslims believe that Jesus will have to come to know. Brother, be clear. When you are saying Jesus as God, we are expecting that he must be knowing everything. There is no question of “coming to know.”
1. You said three categories are mentioned, but we can’t see that. It is clearly written No one knows, not even angel, nor son, but Father. First category is a generalized declaration as “no one”, which you converted deceitfully to “no Human Being”. I checked the original greek, even there, word “Human being” is not mentioned (may be holy spirit guided you? ). This was your second fallacious trick.
You gave many equations to correlate, so there is high chance of difficulty (as was the intention of author, to confuse people). So, I will simplify it further, what author wants to say,
a. Jesus knew everything as Father because they were same (standard statement).
b. Father had the prerogative to ordain the hour so he is different in function but not knowledge. How? As explained by author in point 7, “knowing” is tantamount to “ordaining”. So here, even though written “knows” , it means “ordains”. And supported by the fact that Jesus is already a God and He knows everything, so this knowing is not knowing but ordaining.
Brother, we don’t assume Jesus to be God rather we object this point, by saying He could not be God because he did not know everything. You just reversed your statement that Jesus is God , so he knows everything (yes, you did so, but used beautiful play of words to say your statement, which looks you are proving it). Actually, you failed to prove why Jesus didn’t know the hour (if you don’t bring the equation of Jesus is God in to it). And I have already exposed brother’s another posting on Is Jesus God? My comment as comforter..
http://www.sakshitimes.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=155&Itemid=43
So, in short, brother played fallacious tactic by making word “know” equal to word “ordain”. How? Supernaturally, with the help of holy spirit? Something, similar to “one” is equal to “three”. And if somebody doesn’t accept their, one = three or know= ordain etc., then he doesn’t have matured thinking. Brother, keep your matured thinking with you and fool yourself. Don’t misquote and deceive people with manipulation of word. You can’t escape .
(ii). For Fig tree comment, you said you don’t have time. I can understand. I give you an idea- Sam guru.
13.
May God grant him paradise. What Ahmad Deedat did, was a great service to humanity. He exposed the lies and insinuation done in the Bible to the world and set a trend, which inshallah will bring the end to lies and deception, Christian world has structured. Alhamdulillah, God gave him a real long life, much more than WHO life expectancy in urban world. You have problem with his suffering from stroke from which he died. But we muslim believers , have very clear belief that suffering in this world removes our sins. Do, you believe all those people having chronic disease and sufferings are great sinners. And many sinner who died sudden death were heaven bound (what, if they didn’t believe in sacrifice? Even then?). It is illogical statement, which indicates nothing but disbelief. I also pray to God to give me similar death as of Ahmad Deedat so that I can get time to repent and whatever the sin I did, I pay them here itself and I make it direct to heaven. Amen.
I have seen you people dedicated few pages to Ahmad Deedat and fabricated many lies and deception there. Inshallah, if I get time and opportunity I will expose your tricks.
Now regarding,
“For false Christs and FALSE PROPHETS will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as TO MISLEAD, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I HAVE TOLD YOU IN ADVANCE. If therefore they say to you, ‘BEHOLD, HE IS IN THE DESERT,’ DO NOT GO FORTH, OR, ‘BEHOLD HE IS IN THE INNER ROOMS,’ DO NOT BELIEVE THEM.” (Matthew 24:24-26).
It is a proverb in the form of warning, that many false prophet s will come and whether he comes from desert or inner room, don’t believe them. I think you didn’t see the second part i.e. inner room. I think it sets more on apostle Paul, as He was there from desert of Syria as well as in inner room of also. So, I think it is perfectly setting to your beloved than my beloved.
14.
So, according to you, in Matthew 15:15 , Peter was referring to the parable which is mentioned in verse 10, not verse 14 (even though it is just after verse 14). I think you got the wrong inspiration again. You should read the verse properly. In verse 15, Peter is saying to declare us THIS PARABLE (near one and best suit to verse just before), not THAT PARABLE.
And if you see verse 10, it doesn’t look like parable while verse 14 does.
Verse 10: And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
Verse 14: Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Any foolish can see and decide which verse look likes parable. Brother, in which English, it is taught that proverbs can’t be used as parable. I think you need to brush up your basics and save others from your problematic misinformation.
Another deception failed. Alhamdulillah.
15.
Again you pointed the same proverbial prediction regarding false prophets. So, I think I should clear your facts regarding predictions in Bible, i.e. regarding false and true prophets.
Is it really prophesized in the Bible, regarding Mohammad (pbuh).
Yes.
Old testament:
a. Deuteronomy 18:
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy BRETHREN, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their BRETHREN, LIKE UNTO THEE, AND WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And we know that prophet Mohammad is from lineage of Ismail, brethren of those of lineage of Isaac, i.e. Moses (pbuh) and like Moses in many aspects (most important, non of them were ‘God’ himself, as Jesus is supposed to be and many many similarites. Waiting for your response to give the details)
b. Isaiah 59: 21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, SHALL NOT DEPART OUT OF THY MOUTH, NOR OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THY SEED, NOR OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THY SEED’S SEED, SAITH THE LORD, FROM HENCEFORTH AND FOR EVER.
We know very well Jesus didn’t have children (seed) as he was not married, so it applies to Mohammad (pbuh) only.
New testament:
Jesus is warning, that kingdom of God shall be taken, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mathew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, THE KINGDOM OF GOD SHALL BE TAKEN FROM YOU, AND GIVEN TO A NATION BRINGING FORTH THE FRUITS THEREOF.
It is said that many prophets will come, some will be false and other true. And it is also given, the way to identify the true prophet. So, question of true prophets arise if they are supposed to come. See below,
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: EVERY SPIRIT THAT CONFESSETH THAT JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH IS OF GOD: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
And Mohammad (pbuh) testifies Jesus (pbuh) and fulfills the criteria. See the next section for further detail.
And there is another similar statement, where it is said regarding false prophets and how to identify the true one.
Matthew 7: 15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17EVEN SO EVERY GOOD TREE BRINGETH FORTH GOOD FRUIT; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
See the fruit of teaching of Mohammad (pbuh): gave community who believe in righteous deed, loves to pray and repent to God, away from many sins (mostly, of course with some black sheeps), believes in family values ( mostly), Away from wine( mostly)etc.
Now you see the verse below,
John 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No
And see, what was asked to John the Baptist, by Jews,
1. Are you Christ and John replied, no.
They then said, “What then?” That means, they want to say, what else he could be. And then they asked THREE MORE DIFFERENT POSSIBILITIES(not the synonym of same… see written “what then?”
2. Are you Elias?
3. Are you that prophet?
So, when Jesus came, he accepted to be Christ, and Jesus explained about Elias that he already came. So, what about “That Prophet”. Brother, That is Mohammad (pbuh).
Amazing! so clear predictions regarding Mohammad (pbuh), still you are bringing all those parables of bad peoples or proverbial addresses related to false prophets and try to label on Mohammad (pbuh). In the next section, I am explaining you the further proofs which you could not see. May God give you the vision of truth.
16.
Comforter in bible: In actual greek, word used here is “paraclete”, which has been translated as comforter, but in another place it has been translated as advocate, and was referring to Jesus (pbuh).
“1 john 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:”
Why so? You know better. Yes, to create illusion.
We have four places in New testament, where COMFORTER TO COME IS MENTIONED:
a. John 14:16 And I WILL PRAY THE FATHER, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may ABIDE WITH YOU FOR EVER; 17[Even] THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH; whom the world CANNOT receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
b. John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] THE HOLY GHOST, whom the FATHER WILL SEND in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your REMEMBRANCE, whatsoever I have said unto you.
c. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER, [even] THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, which proceedeth from the Father, HE SHALL TESTIFY OF ME:
d. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for IF I GO NOT AWAY, THE COMFORTER WILL NOT COME unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but YE CANNOT BEAR THEM NOW. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, [THAT] SHALL HE SPEAK: and HE WILL SHEW YOU THINGS TO COME. 14HE SHALL GLORIFY ME: for HE SHALL RECEIVE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW [IT] UNTO YOU. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that HE SHALL TAKE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW [IT] UNTO YOU.
There are many points to be considered:
1. When Jesus will go, he will come (d):
Surely can’t be the holy Ghost (3rd God), as he was present at the time of Jesus and even before Jesus. If so, this condition (when Jesus will go, then only he will come) is useless to mention. It is Mohammad (pbuh), who came after him.
2. Father will send him, and Jesus will request for the same to Father (a,b,c,d):
But in one place it is written that Jesus will send him. Jesus himself cleared , “I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER”. Saying of Jesus, “I will send” does not mean he is sending, rather his arrival to God was the time for comforter to get ready for his job. Let us see an example: There is an office, which works round the clock and has three shifts of duties for staffs. And all the staffs are distributed in different shifts. There is a couple with few children. Husband works in morning shift and wife is in the next shift. So, in the morning, mother is with children. When she leaves for her duty (the second shift), she tells her children that she will send their father after she reaches office. And when she reaches office, her husband comes home to the children. What do you think? She sent him? Yes, due to her arrival, he came back, but it was expected, (not because she sent him). So, it was Mohammad (pbuh) who followed him as messenger.
3. He is the spirit of truth and in one place the holy Ghost (a,b,c,d):
Brother, in greek there is only one word “pneuma” which has been translated as spirit in some place and ghost in other (depends on translator’s taste). So, ghost and spirit is one and the same thing. And spirit word has been used in Bible for even prophet e.g. “1 John 4: 1 Beloved, believe not every SPIRIT, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false PROPHETS are gone out into the world.” So, spirit can be prophet and if the prophet is true and righteous, may be due to this, he is called as “holy” here. So, the spirit is Mohammad (pbuh).
4. Jesus want to go expediently (d), why?
Because Jesus told above – “because they believe not on me”
5. He will come little later, as they “cannot bear him” (d) at that time and He will remind them of the thing which they forgot (“bring all things to your REMEMBRANCE” (b)). I think it is needed to remind, when it is forgotten over time. So, if he had to come soon, where is the question of bringing all things to remembrance, because I hope you know, his disciples were there at that time with his teachings and when people really forgot the message, prophet Mohammad (pbuh ) was sent to remind all those things once again.
6. He will testify Jesus(c) and Glorify Jesus(d).
Proof:
The Quran brought by Mohammad (pbuh) glorifies Jesus:
Quran 3:45 “…his name will be the Messiah ‘Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allâh.”
Muhammad (pbuh) also glorified Jesus: e.g. Saheeh al- bukhari vol 4 hadith no. 644
“The Prophet said, “If anyone testifies that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is Allah’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, Allah will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few.”
7. What will he (comforter) do:
i. HE WILL REPROVE THE WORLD OF SIN, AND OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND OF JUDGMENT (d):
Proof: whole life of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)and his teachings. See, the whole of Saudi Arabia doesn’t have one shop of wine in this present world. When it comes to charity, if not every, at least most of the muslim (who is eligible) give 2.5 % of their saving to poor. We have our blacksheeps in all fields, but still we are the best when comes righteousness, remembering God, being away from sin. In Muslim community, if somebody drinks, he is projected out as bad person, while at the same time in the Christian world, if somebody doesn’t drink is thought to be odd man. Amazing!
And, he perfected the worship of one true God.
“Quran 5:72 They do blaspheme who say: “(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.”
ii. WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, [THAT] SHALL HE SPEAK (d):
And similar message, in deutronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH; AND HE SHALL SPEAK UNTO THEM ALL THAT I SHALL COMMAND HIM.
And Quran testifies this.
“Quran 53: 3 Neither does he speak out of his own desire: 4 that [which he conveys to you] is but [a divine] inspiration with which he is being inspired.”.
iii. HE WILL BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU (b):
See, for example:
The words of the Quran 5:72 “…while the Messiah had said, ‘O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’”
This Quran reminds people of the first and greatest command of Jesus that they have forgotten:
“The first of all the commandments is, ‘Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.’” (Mark 12:29)
iv. HE WILL SHEW YOU THINGS TO COME(d):
The Quran Testifies and many verses of Quran and prophetic hadith give such information.
Quran 12:102:“That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal, [O Muhammad], to you…”
Saheeh al- Bukhari vol 8 hadith no. 601:
“ Narrated Hudhaifa: The Prophet once delivered a speech in front of us wherein he left nothing but mentioned (about) everything that would happen till the Hour. Some of us stored that our minds and some forgot it. (After that speech) I used to see events taking place (which had been referred to in that speech) but I had forgotten them (before their occurrence). Then I would recognize such events as a man recognizes another man who has been absent and then sees and recognizes him.”
v. WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, BECAUSE IT SEETH HIM NOT, NEITHER KNOWETH HIM (a):
Peoples like you, testify this statement.
vi. HE SHALL TAKE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW [IT] UNTO YOU (d):
And even Quran says so:
Quran 61:6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!”
And whatever was there with Jesus (ALL THINGS OF GOD for people), was given to Mohammad(pbuh).
Quran 3:3 It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur’ân) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it…
vii. HE WILL ABIDE WITH YOU FOR EVER (a):
.. meaning his original teachings will remain forever. Muhammad (pbuh) was God’s last prophet to humanity. His teachings are perfectly preserved. He lives in the hearts and minds of his adoring followers who worship God in his exact imitation.
Brother, you made me write a lot. I think your all doubts would have been cleared. Regarding “comforter” you posed few questions, but for clarification, I touched all those points along with some more different aspects (still in brief). If you have any doubt regarding any point, ask me, instead of posing 10 new hadiths or verses, and deluding from topic and switching to different topics.
May God guide you and me to the truth.
Dear Muslim Comforter?!
Let me go little by little. At least that will enable you to respond in a decent manner and meaningfully.
1.
You wrote:
a) Alhamdulillah you again accepted the stupidity of the salvation theory. Of course with some further additions ( inshallah we will see as it comes).
My response:
a) Yes, I fully agree about your stupidity of misinterpreting and misunderstanding God’s true salvation.
The true Salvation of God cannot be understood by foolish persons whose destiny is destruction. The reason is very clear in the above verse of the Bible I quoted (1Corinthians 1: 18). Again, when the Scriptures are given through the prophets or apostles they are God’s words to His people. God can use Moses or Jesus or Peter or Paul to reveal His truth. Those who fear God and love His words will accept them as from God. God revealed His truth progressively through His word (The Bible).
You wrote:
b)The “stupid salvation of Islam” as you believe is the same “salvation of Islam of Jesus and Moses (pbut)”. By the way , regarding
“For the word of the cross is TO THOSE WHO ARE PERISHING FOOLISHNESS, but to those who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1Cor.1:1 .
Who said this? Jesus or Paul? This is Paul’s theory of salvation not Jesus.
My response:
(i) Salvation that was preached by Moses was based on the Law, salvation that was preached by Jesus is based on grace and the salvation that was preached by Muhammad was based on belief, deeds, law, mercy and jihad. The first two are revealed in the Bible over a period of more than a thousand years as part of God’s progressive revelation, but the last one is written in the Quran which is outside of God’s true revelation.
(ii) You need to understand that whether Jesus said or Paul said that is God’s word. Otherwise you give thee impression that every time you read the Quran you are wondering whether it was written by Muhammad or Zaid.
(iii) The revelation about ‘salvation’ that was given through Paul has been built upon what Jesus and the Apostles (disciples) preached. It is neither contradictory nor different. But you seem to understand it contradictory. The reason is clear in the words of Peter the Apostle, “And regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.” (2Peter 3:15-16)
(iv)The God whom I believe and serve is the true God of the Universe. He revealed His truth and salvation in the Bible. He came to this sin-stricken world in order to save us in the form of His Son Jesus Christ. You have not only been denying these truths, but maligning and mocking consistently at these truths so far. May the heavy hand of this God be on you until you confess your sin and turn to Him in repentance and humility.
You wrote:
c) “To repeat, the theory of salvation of Islam of Mohammad or Jesus was same i.e. Faith and righteous deeds with mercy of God involved thoroughly.”
My response:
According to you the ‘salvation of Islam’ is faith and righteous deeds with mercy of God. Very clear statement. Thanks for the clarity you offered. But unfortunately the statement of the Hadith Muhammad is not as clear as your statement. (Can I appreciate you for you know better than Muhammad?)
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I came to the Prophet while he was wearing white clothes and sleeping. Then I went back to him again after he had got up from his sleep. He said, “Nobody says: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’ and then later on he dies while believing in that, except that he will enter Paradise.” I said, “Even It he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft.” I said, “Even if he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft? He said. “Even If he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft.” I said, “Even it he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and thefts.” He said, “Even If he had committed Illegal sexual intercourse and theft, in spite of Abu Dharr’s dislikeness. Abu ‘Abdullah said, “This is at the time of death or before it if one repents and regrets and says ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’, he will be forgiven his sins.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 717)
In the above hadith Muhammad made it clear that it is the ‘statement of faith’ that ensures a person entrance into paradise, despite his/her sinful life. In addition to that Hadith Muhammad seems to know better, again, than Quranic Allah. “Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, “Now have I repented indeed.” (Quran 4:18).
You wrote:
d) Brother, I really feel sorry for you. You have severe reading disability. I explained it clearly that GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING, EVEN FUTURE, AND IF HE HAS WRITTEN ABOUT A PERSON”S DESTINATION OF HELL OR HEAVEN, OF COURSE IT IS BECAUSE HE KNOWS THE DEEDS OF THE PEOPLE IN ADVANCE (AS GOD IS ALL KNOWING). SO THEY WILL GO TO HEAVEN OR HELL BECAUSE OF THEIR BEIEF AND DEED NOT BECAUSE GOD WROTE THE SAME. Please read my last comment for further details if you could not see last time.
My response:
You feel sorry for me! You think that I have severe reading disability!! Thanks!!! Let the readers decide to whom that is applicable.
(i) Dear readers please read the following hadith and compare its message with the above Muslim comforter’s explanation.
‘A’isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah’s Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: ‘A’isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father’s loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father’s loins. (Sahi Muslim Book 033, Number 6436)
According to H. Muhammad:
“Allah CREATED FOR PARADISE THOSE WHO ARE FIT FOR IT while they were in their father’s loins.”
“Allah CREATED FOR HELL THOSE WHO ARE TO GO TO HELL. HE CREATED THEM FOR HELL while they were yet in their father’s loins.”
Please, do recall what Q Allah said in the Quran, ““Many are the Jinns and MEN WE (Allah) HAVE CREATED FOR HELL” (Sura 7:179)
But according to M Comforter (he seems to know better than Q Allah and H Muhammad!):
“SO THEY WILL GO TO HEAVEN OR HELL BECAUSE OF THEIR BEIEF AND DEED NOT BECAUSE GOD WROTE THE SAME.
I don’t have to say who is twisting and lying in the above statements. You decide.
(ii) Contrary to M Comforter’s assertion the following hadiths reveal that whatever Allah (I mean Quranic Allah) predetermines that will come to pass:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. ‘O Adam! You are our father who disappointed us and turned us out of Paradise.’ Then Adam said to him, ‘O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action which Allah had written in my fate forty years before my creation?’ So Adam confuted Moses, Adam confuted Moses,” the Prophet added, repeating the Statement three times. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number 611)
Abu al-Aswad reported that ‘Imran b Husain asked him: What is your view, what the people do today in the world, and strive for, is it something decreed for them or preordained for them or will their fate in the Hereafter be determined by the fact that their Prophets brought them teaching which they did not act upon? I said: Of course, it is something which is predetermined for them and preordained for them. He (further) said: Then, would it not be an injustice (to punish them)? I felt greatly disturbed because of that, and said: Everything is created by Allah and lies in His Power. He would not be questioned as to what He does, but they would be questioned; thereupon he said to me: May Allah have mercy upon you, I did not mean to ask you but for testing your intelligence. Two men of the tribe of Muzaina came to Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah’s Messenger, what is your opinion that the people do in the world and strive for, is something decreed for them; something preordained for them and will their fate in the Hereafter be determined by the fact that their Prophets brought them teachings which they did not act upon. And thus they became deserving of punishment? Thereupon, he said: Of course, it happens as it is decreed by Destiny and preordained for them, and this view is confirmed by this verse of the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious: “Consider the soul and Him Who made it perfect, then breathed into it its sin and its piety” (xci. 8). (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6406)
Now the question is who is lying? Q Allah or H Muhammad or M Comforter? Readers you can decide.
(iii) In the above confusion M. Comforter evaded answering my simple question (he wrote about a hadith that says people will have houses both in paradise and hell–http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=6396): If Q Allah is the one who creates the people those who would eventually be going to paradise why in the world he had to build houses for them in hell? In the same way, if Q Allah is the one who creates the people who would eventually be going to hell why in the world he had to build houses for them in Paradise? Is it because he wanted to confuse Muhammad or Muslims (because they believe these stupid stories) or those who would be going to those places or he himself got confused? I hope this is not an unfair question to ask.
Peace to Mr. Adil (Bro.Jerry Thomas SAN) and Mr Comforter (Br. Imran IREF)
I love your debates….
Dear brother
All praise to Allah. First of all, I want to clear your misconception. I am not Imran and I don’t know brother Imran or IREF or any other organization. Amazingly, I didn’t even know Brother Imran or his IREF except through your website. Let me introduce myself. I am a practicing physician, having very hectic schedule. I have read Quran, Bible and hadiths. In short, I am a part time student of comparative religion. I love Dr. Zakir Naik even though I never met him. I believe in self study. So, for all my comments, I am fully responsible.
I liked this article of Mr. Adil as he tried to stay on the topic instead of swaying and escaping the scene by quoting and quoting, as had been doing till now. So, we will see stepwise.
1. a) So, according to you the story (comment 17 point 1) which I presented was not stupid rather it’s interpretation was wrong. But, if you see properly, I did not give my interpretation rather it is self evident. Please quote this story (nice simulating stupid story) to any of your friend and ask him for any different interpretation. You will get the answer.
b)
(i) We (like any logical person), believe that God’s salvation is one and same for all human. I quoted words of Jesus from your Bible to support my stand and you are quoting that of Paul to support your stand. Quote me one verse WHERE JESUS IN HIS LIFE (during his mission in this world) told that I came to fulfill the law SO THAT YOU CAN BREAK IT or the very base of salvation theory that ANYONE WHO DOESN’T BELIEVE IN MY DEATH WILL NOT BE SALVATED. Did Jesus forget that or this God of yours, was fearing Jews to convey his very mission on this earth (according to you)? And Paul had to tell all these things to people that also in contradicting way. It is amazing that you people allege our beloved prophet (Jesus) of not doing his duty of conveying the new theory of salvation.
(ii) We cannot believe that what Paul said is God’s word, or is even near to what Jesus said especially when it is contradicting the words of Jesus. As Paul himself declared that he could do anything even illegal (out of law) for his mission and did lie on many occasions and turned the Christianity upside down. And you still believe him to be truthful and even accept his wordings as God’s word.
“1 Corinthians 9: 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law” KJV
(iii) Amazingly, you are producing support of one of his (Jesus’) disciples i.e. Peter to prove that Disciple can be better than master. I think you know Peter very well, he like other disciples did not mind to ditch Jesus at the most crucial moment of his life i.e. arrest and crucifixion (?).
“Mark 14:50 And they all forsook him, and fled.” Does here also this “all” doesn’t mean “all” but “all except Peter”.
(iv) Let me help you getting out of delusion.
Let me quote from “Quran 18:
103. Say: “Shall We tell you the greatest losers in respect of (their) deeds?
104. Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they thought that they were acquiring good by their deeds!”
And one more verse from “Quran 6:
43. When Our Torment reached them, why then did they not believe with humility? But their hearts became hardened, and Shaitân (Satan) made fairseeming to them that which they used to do.”
Brother, Quran explains clearly regarding your state and illusion around you and it’s reason. I really feel sorry for you. You think you are doing good, but actually you are in illusion, rather delusion. I give you a sincere advice. You ask God for help and true guidance, but with all sincerity of getting the true guidance, KEEP YOUR PREJUDICES ASIDE, and be prepared for anything amazing. Inshallah, if you are sincere enough, and if God loves you, He will guide you to the truth of Islam of Jesus and Mohammad (pbut). It will be little difficult for you, as you had been exposed to many devilish misguidance mostly through people like Sam. But, still, not impossible. You already quoted a hadith below that there is always a chance of getting forgiveness from God even if you are a big sinner. God is all merciful. Only thing you have to do, is to be SINCERE. May God give you the ability to see my these few lines in it’s true sense. Our prophet (pbuh) informed us that if God loves a person He guides him to the true knowledge of religion (of submission to God i.e. Islam).
Brother, I have no intention to hurt anybody. I do not like to mock at any body. You people have made the religion a mockery. You created an easy theory of salvation, by twisting the word of God and doing all sort of misdeeds and still believing to be right. You brought paganism to the religion, by breaking one true God to three (? but one) true Gods. You made many prohibited things allowed and vice versa, going against the teaching of Jesus (e.g. Pork, circumcision etc.). You forgot praying to God and those doing, you call them ritualistic. And still you will be saved because God killed His son rather himself (an evident drama because actually God is eternal and He can’t be killed) for you. So, the religion which was to guide and warn people became opposite i.e. made people free for doing crime and no accountability because somebody died for that. Who made it mockery? me or you people?
c) Regarding your quotation and another misinterpretation (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 717).
As, I told you before, God is most forgiving and most merciful. God can forgive any sin if you consider him God and ask for forgiveness. But how? Depends on the faith and sincerity of person (sinner) and of course his good righteous deeds. If a person committed illegal sexual intercourse or theft, it doesn’t mean he never did any good deed. God is the best judge. In Islam if a person feeds his children, it is also a good deed. Yes, he might have done some big sin as well, but still if he repents (righteous deed) and ask to God SINCERELY, God can still forgive him due to his mercy which is based on his intention and his previous deeds and can send to paradise. It should not be by mouth alone but by belief as explained in this hadith and Quranic verse , you quoted, affirms that just saying that “I repent indeed” is not enough. i.e. “Quran 4:18. And, going to paradise doesn’t always mean he will make it directly to it .” It has been explained in many hadiths that if we have faith we will surely make it to heaven and depending on deeds and level of faith it will be decided how? i.e. how long we will have to stay in hell before going to heaven. And, as for his sins, he will be accountable for it. Like if somebody has stolen something from someone. He did sin against God by committing prohibited act and also against that person, for he stolen his things. If he repents and ask for forgiveness to God, God may forgive his sins but he will be still accountable for his misdeed and unless that person forgives him, he will have to suffer for that and at last he will make it to heaven, due to his faith. So, in brief,
A. How much big sinner you are, there is always a chance (in this life) for forgiveness even if it is late.
(unlike God of Christianity, who after giving enough opportunity started playing tricks to push the sinners to Hell e.g. “Mark 4: 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND [THEIR] SINS SHOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM.”).
B. One must be SINCERE in repentance (unlike the person who did all sort of evil throughout his life and at the end saying pretending to repent i.e. Quran 4:18 ).
C. Faith is must for getting salvation and good deeds are mirror of faith and God will decide though his mercy on the fate of person i.e. heaven or hell, but of course taking into account his Faith and deeds (including repentance).
This is in brief and this is not my concept rather concept of Islam, which you will get only when you read Quran and hadith with it’s context. If you read here a little and there a little, you are bound to be misguided esp. if you keep devil as your savior. There are many hadiths which I briefed (keeping my comment short) to give you the appropriate picture. If you have any problem, inform me inshallah I will quote them for you.
d)
(i) First of all you read this hadith to know the language of Quran and hadith.
Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number 609
Narrated by Ibn Abbas, I did not see anything so resembling minor sins as what Abu Huraira said from the Prophet, who said, “ALLAH HAS WRITTEN for the son of Adam his inevitable share of adultery whether he is aware of it or not: The adultery of the eye is the looking (at something which is sinful to look at), and the adultery of the tongue is to utter (what it is unlawful to utter), and the inner self wishes and longs for (adultery) and the private parts turn that into reality or refrain from submitting to the temptation.”
I think if you see this hadith, you will get the meaning of word “Allah has written”. It is a general hadith on warning related to adultery and He used the word “He (Allah) has written” because He has knowledge of future. So, this hadith presents that if somebody does such crime he is responsible for that, not that because it was written for him, he did that crime. I think your misconception related to the style of this language would have been cleared, if not you try to reread this, and ask for God’s help, inshallah, it will be cleared. God explained similar use of language in Quran.
“Quran 63:3 That is because they believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed, so they understand not.”
It is something as teacher says to his student (when student is not following the instructions properly),” I ‘ll give you in written that you will not pass the exam. It doesn’t mean teacher wanted that student to fail or if student really failed, does it mean that, it is teacher who is responsible for his failure (only because he warned so in this style). Teacher told this out of his experience. So, what about God, who is All-knowing, who knows everything whether past, or present or future? And if God says that, He made him for hell or sealed heart, it never means He made him for Hell but declaring that this particular person who is also a God’s creation will go to hell or he will not respond to the call of God (i.e. heart is sealed).
And of course Allah has written about the person, before one’s birth as explained in many verses of Quran and Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), as you misquoted.
(ii) This is another big topic. Here Adam is explaining to Moses that Allah had written about his fate of coming out from paradise to earth, long back. What wrong in this? This is about God’s plan of sending Adam to earth which Moses believed to be due to mistake of Adam. And Adam is explaining that he did not come to this world because of his sins rather, it was predetermined by God and He created Adam for earth. It is you people who believe that we came here due to sin of Adam and God sacrificed his son to compensate this etc. etc. We believe Adam and Eve were made for earth and before coming here they underwent test which they failed but God still forgave them after they repented (through guidance of Allah) and then sent to this earth as per plan. This was to show that human being is weak and satan is their enemy and God will guide his creation and if repented properly, He will forgive (God is very merciful )etc. etc.
Proof? you read these verses of Quran.
Chapter 2:29-38
29: He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istawâ (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything.
30. And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: “VERILY, I AM GOING TO PLACE (MANKIND) GENERATIONS AFTER GENERATIONS ON EARTH.”……….
Then starts the test……and on and on.
Brother, it was another attempt to misquote the thing out of context. Alhamdulillah, foiled timely.
Now, regarding your hadith of Sahih Muslim (Book 033, Number 6406):
First part: Two peoples were discussing about fate and checking each other’s intelligence. Does it mean Prophet said so?
Second part: Prophet (pbuh) was asked about destiny. And prophet explained in the same style as I mentioned above and quoted this verse of Quran, chapter 91:
Mohsin Khan translation:
7 And by Nafs (Adam or a person or a soul, etc.), and Him Who perfected him in proportion;
8. Then He showed him what is wrong for him and what is right for him;
Yusuf Ali translation:
7:By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it;
8:And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;-
Actually, this verse indicates opposite of what you claim. Here, God is saying that after creating human, God gave him sense of wrong and right so that he can decide and responsible for his act and determine his fate. Of course, God knew these in advance and has written for them and if it was written Heaven, it can be seen that he might be evident as sinful person in the beginning then he repented and made it to heaven. So, prophet taught us that if we have been written for heaven we can see our deed moving in that direction but if opposite, our deed will be directed toward that direction and it is a signal to be cautious as we don’t know where will we end up but surely we can control it. And we will be responsible because we had been enlightened towards what is wrong and what is right.
I think it should be clear that if God has written their destiny of heaven and hell in advance, or written created for hell and heaven do not mean, God is responsible for their Hell or Heaven, rather God decided through his mercy and weighed the faith and deeds to allot him the appropriate place. I think in the limited time and space I gave you enough evidence and logic to show you the Truth so that you don’t understand it to be my view rather the view of Islam.
And see these few verses of Quran, giving clear picture which you could not see rather wasting time on creating suspicion over a clear matter. So, read Quran thoroughly to get real concept which you think to be mine (nauzbillah). If you could not understand a part at any place, surely you will see it’s detail in other place, both in Quran and hadiths. So, ask those who know if you don’t know a matter (Quran 16:43…. So ask of those who know, if you know not). Here it goes, Quran chapter 82 verses 4-16
4 And when the Graves are turned upside down;-
5 (Then) shall each soul know what it hath sent forward and (what it hath) kept back.
6 O man! What has seduced thee from thy Lord Most Beneficent?-
7 Him Who created thee. Fashioned thee in due proportion, and gave thee a just bias;
8 In whatever Form He wills, does He put thee together.
9 Day! nit ye do reject Right and Judgment!
10 But verily over you (are appointed angels) to protect you,
11 Kind and honourable,- Writing down (your deeds):
12 They know (and understand) all that ye do.
13 AS FOR THE RIGHTEOUS, THEY WILL BE IN BLISS;
14 AND THE WICKED – THEY WILL BE IN THE FIRE,
15 Which they will enter on the Day of Judgment,
And everybody will be accountable and dealt justly as God is just and merciful.
Quran 17:15 “Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: NO BEARER OF BURDENS CAN BEAR THE BURDEN OF ANOTHER: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning).”
Quran 40:20 “And God will judge with (justice and) Truth: but those whom (men) invoke besides Him, will not (be in a position) to judge at all. Verily it is God (alone) Who hears and sees (all things).”
May God guide you and me to the Truth.
Dear Muslim Comforter,
I give all glory to the God of truth and love through His eternal ‘Word’ Jesus Christ the Lord of all. May the Lord help me as I expose the Islamic deception and lies against God’s truth and His salvation ONE BY ONE.
You wrote:
“1. a) So, according to you the story (comment 17 point 1) which I presented was not stupid rather it’s interpretation was wrong. But, if you see properly, I did not give my interpretation rather it is self evident. Please quote this story (nice simulating stupid story) to any of your friend and ask him for any different interpretation. You will get the answer.”
My response:
Let me quote ‘the story’ you wrote in its entirety, as it is, so that you may be exposed for what you are:
“You again repeated your salvation theory. I remember one statement, on one blog on Christian salvation, really interesting.
“once upon a time there was this city filled with bad people, who did bad things and always got away with everything bad that they always did. Always except this one time when they did get caught, and the entire city was arrested! Soon it was time for them to appear in court and they stood before the judge to plead their case. All the bad people of this city stood before the judge and claimed “oh just judge, we know we are bad people and we have done bad things, but please! do not punish us let us go! because there is one among us in our city who has never done anything bad in his whole life. infact, he has always told us to stay away from bad things, but we never listened, so please punish this man instead!!!” And so, upon hearing this the judge had this goodly man quite immediately arrested and and put infront of a firing squad and given a gruesome penalty of death. The bad bad people were let go in return, and the bad people returned to their bad ways. THE END! :
oh, did I mention the good man was the son of the judge?” What a logical and easy salvation you have made.”
The above paragraph is what you wrote and is taken directly from your posting. Sometimes Christians use parables to explain the truths of the Bible. The above ‘story’ you quoted is obviously flawed in its essential details. Either it is changed or retold in a confused manner just like the way Muhammad had done to the Biblical stories in his Quran. This is done to mock at the truth of God (but Muhammad did it to gain the credit, though!) out of hatred towards Christian message. Here, the simple but important question is who did that? Who changed it? You or some other Muslims? (You might protest saying no it is from Christians) If you try to fool the readers I want to remind you that you can do that only to yourself, but not to the careful and impartial readers. The story itself shows how mistaken the Muslim mind is in understanding the Biblical salvation!
According to your Islamic honesty please tell us whether the story, as it is, is used by Christians (in which case you will be free of any deception and lie in this) or it is a story changed by a Muslim (in which case both you and the producer of this tampered story will show to the readers how despicable and disgusting is the Muslim hatred towards God’s truth). If you are an honest person, as you are trying to pose, please give me the address of the blog that you had found ‘the story’ so that I and the readers can check its truthfulness by ourselves. You gave the impression that Christians use this ‘story’ to explain salvation. If the story is really from Christians, as it is, then you are an honest person at least in this issue. If not, then you confirm beyond a shadow of doubt that you are a liar and deceiver beyond description. Either way, I and the readers can at least understand what kind of deity and religion you are enslaved to. The readers and I will be waiting for the address of the blog that supposedly told you ‘the story.’ DON’T TRY TO ESCAPE FROM THIS SIMPLE TEST WITH SILENCE OR LAME EXCUSES!!!
May the true God reveal the truth exposing falsity and deception before all the readers.
Adil.
To Sakshitimes.org: Hi I posted the following response to M Comforter last week on Friday i.e.Feb.26th. Today it is Mar.5th. So tt’s been a week already but still it has not appeared on your website. I don’t know the reasons why you failed to publish it so far. If I used any inappropriate language or broke your conditions please accept my apologies. In any case, I am resending it again with few changes to what I sent a week ago.
Dear Muslim Comforter,
The God of truth and love is worthy of all glory and praise through His eternal Word Jesus Christ the Lord of all. May the Lord help me as I expose the Islamic deception and lies against God’s truth and His salvation one by one.
You wrote:
“1. a) So, according to you the story (comment 17 point 1) which I presented was not stupid rather it’s interpretation was wrong. But, if you see properly, I did not give my interpretation rather it is self evident. Please quote this story (nice simulating stupid story) to any of your friend and ask him for any different interpretation. You will get the answer.”
My response:
Let me quote the story you wrote in its entirety, as it is, so that you may be exposed for what you are before the honest readers be it Christians or Muslims:
“You again repeated your salvation theory. I remember one statement, on one blog on Christian salvation, really interesting.
“once upon a time there was this city filled with bad people, who did bad things and always got away with everything bad that they always did. Always except this one time when they did get caught, and the entire city was arrested! Soon it was time for them to appear in court and they stood before the judge to plead their case. All the bad people of this city stood before the judge and claimed “oh just judge, we know we are bad people and we have done bad things, but please! do not punish us let us go! because there is one among us in our city who has never done anything bad in his whole life. infact, he has always told us to stay away from bad things, but we never listened, so please punish this man instead!!!” And so, upon hearing this the judge had this goodly man quite immediately arrested and and put infront of a firing squad and given a gruesome penalty of death. The bad bad people were let go in return, and the bad people returned to their bad ways. THE END! :
oh, did I mention the good man was the son of the judge?” What a logical and easy salvation you have made.”
My dear M. Comforter! Sometimes Christians use parables to explain the truths of the Bible. The above story you quoted is obviously flawed in its essential details. Either it is changed or retold in a confused manner just like Muhammad had done to the Biblical stories in his Quran (after the changes it looks more like stupid Hadith sotries! If you want, just let me know I will quote some stupid stories from hadiths next time). This is done to mock at the truth of God (but Muhammad did it to gain the credit, though!) out of hatred towards Christian message. Here, the simple but important question is who did that? Who changed it? Is it you or other Muslims or someone else? If you try to fool the readers I want to remind you that you can do that only to yourself, but not to the careful and impartial readers. The story itself mirrors how mistaken the Muslim mind is in understanding the Biblical salvation! In your Islamic honesty please tell us whether the story, as it is, is used by Christians (in which case you will be free of any deception and lie in this) or it is a story changed by a Muslim (in which case both you and the producer of this mangled story will show to the readers how despicable and disgusting is the Muslim hatred towards God’s truth). If you are an honest person, as you are trying to pose, please give me the address of the blog that you had found ‘the story’ in so that I and the readers can check its truthfulness by ourselves. You gave the impression that Christians use this story to explain salvation. (But in reality, Muslims use this mangled story to explain Christian salvation.) If the story is really from Christians, as it is, then you are an honest person at least in this issue. If not, then you confirm beyond a shadow of doubt that you are a liar and deceiver beyond description. Either way, I and the readers can understand what kind of deity and religion you are enslaved to. I and the readers will be waiting for the address of the blog that supposedly told you the above ‘story’ you quoted. DON’T TRY TO ESCAPE FROM THIS SIMPLE TEST WITH SILENCE OR LAME EXCUSES!!!
“A rascally witness makes a mockery of justice, and the mouth of the wicked spreads iniquity. Judgments are prepared for scoffers, and blows for the back of fools.” (Holy Bible: Proverbs 19:28-29)
Best of luck! May the true God help all of us to identify the liar and the deceiver in this matter of dishonesty.
Adil.
Dear Muslim Comforter,
Why don’t you later Debate on morality of muhamMAD and Jesus Christ.
Adam
Dear Muslim Comforter,
Why don’t you later Debate on morality of muhamMAD and Jesus Christ.
Adam
Dear Muslim Comforter,
Why don’t you later Debate on morality of muhamMAD and Jesus Christ.
Adam
Brother, it’s really unfortunate to see you in this condition. What do you want to prove by this?, that you (Mr. Adil) is not from Sakshi and even your post is also delayed, the way I had faced. I understand Sakshi’s condition now. Brother, you did a mistake again. You posted this comment (supposedly repeat) on Mar. 5th but, you see the two sentences above, regarding actual date of posting of this comment i.e. Mar. 4th (2010-03-04 21:30:59). Brother, unlike your claim, it is posted one day before, you posted. How? Supernatural? It is only exposing your lie. Rest is evident for a logical person. Please don’t try to fool others. You may not be always successful.
Brother, I explained each and every points of yours (last post on 18th Feb.). And what you found objectionable, is one quotation which I first quoted, 2 months before (first time on 14th Jan). We will see it in detail below. What about my all comments, which you escaped intelligently by hiding your face under the cover of anger. But latent period of this anger is almost 2 months, amazing. Actually, you have no answers to question posed by me in my comments and all your false allegations have been exposed. Good way to hide your face. Now, you put all your eggs in one basket and trying to prove me liar by doing this personal attack on me that I lied that this quotation was from one blog rather it was me who did this. Brother, I wish I had done this great work, but I don’t want to take the credit for somebody else’s work, so I said that I read this comment on blog, which dealt with your salvation theory in beautiful way. Brother I didn’t lie. This comment on the web page (of the blog) was written much more before my appearance on that blog. This page was a beautiful plot on this website (probably of muslims) by some Christian orientalist to defame Islam by misquotation and lies as on this website. One brother named “Fais” wrote this comment on November 18, 2008. And I, first appeared there on February 23, 2009 (accidently), when one another “Adil” called “Nur masih ben Haq”, was doing the mischief, as you people have been doing here. I explained many things and it will be helpful to the readers to know those misconception. There, also my name is Comforter (for ever with truth). Amazingly, I was blocked and sent many private mails through which I could know the actual hidden “missionary agenda” of this web page.
I don’t know whether this brother who named himself as “Fais” was Muslim or Christian or atheist because even name “Adil” or “Adam” may not be Muslim always. It does not matter to me, to whom am I talking. If somebody is misguided, he needs help and for me he is my brother of humanity and I must help him out.
So, here is the link, you click and see yourself the beautiful statement of Mr. Fais on salvation of Christianity which I quoted before. I think, it is the 15th comment from top.
http://muslimmatters.org/2008/11/15/my-passion-for-jesus-christ/
You thought ,you will prove me wrong in this way. Brother, I don’t lie. And you can see the proof. The person, who is wrong, feels everybody to be wrong. Brother, we know the morality and have fear of accountability. Thanks to Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) to give us such a high etiquette. It is your problem that you can’t see the truth even when it is crystal clear to you. You believe our Prophet lied and changed the religion of God, but it was opposite, because you people esp. Paul and his follower changed the religion of Ibrahim, Moses and Jesus (pbut) for their petty wishes (I have already given many proofs) . God perfected His religion through his prophets like Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad (pbut). And, Mohammad (pbuh ) did the same only. I gave many proofs and logic e.g. If you see the present day Bible, it alleged prophets of committing polytheism, rape, incest etc. But when Mohammad (pbuh) and Quran came, it corrected (opposite to your claim) those lies and proved to the world that our Prophets were neither rapist nor God but human being of high character, getting inspiration from God and for correcting people etc. etc.
All of your allegations and misquotations have already been answered for which you could not produce any logical reply and I challenged you thoroughly on many aspects, for which you have no answer and only logical answer which you gave is “ I don’t want to comment”.
One of your team mate (Adam?), suggested to switch the topic. I have no problem, but if you change the topic I will believe that you have no answers to my explanations and questions.
I would love to explain any doubt but with conditions, that
1. It should be presented to me ONE BY ONE
2. And, it should be purely to seek the truth of God.
May God guide you and me to the truth.
Hello Mr. Muslim Comforter,
Thanks for your comment. However, through the comment on March 4 and March 5th, you have exposed the problem with the Islamic mind. Islamic mind cannot think.
If Adil is in US and posts a comment on March 4, it would be March 5 for SAN in India.
Start Thinking and Stop Being a Muslim.
Regards,
SAN Team
Brother, Thank you to remind me this possibility, but you did the mistake again. It is your problem , I should not impose your mistake, on whole Christian world (unlike some narrow minded people). You know very well regarding Adil, whether he is from USA or India. Why Sakshi want to get rid of this “Adil”. Of course, somebody has said rightly: Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan. Poor Adil!
By the way brother, if somebody is in India on 4th March at 21:30:59, it is never possible to have 5th March in USA at that time. It will be somewhere mid afternoon of 4th Mar only. By any supernatural calculation 5th March of USA can never be 4th March in India. I think you are intelligent peoples, you know, USA is on the negative side of GMT while India is on positive side. Yes, opposite is possible. You should have given example nationality of Australia or Japan instead of USA. Poor Mathematics? And to repeat, brother, fear God, because even if you don’t believe, the truth is that you will be accountable for everything, even lies (come out of the illusion that Jesus already paid for your sin and you can do anything). That is the truth of God of all human being. Accept the truth! That will be first step toward righteousness. May God guide you and me to the Truth.
Brother, Thank you to remind me this possibility, but you did the mistake again. It is your problem , I should not impose your mistake, on whole Christian world (unlike some narrow minded people). You know very well regarding Adil, whether he is from USA or India. Why Sakshi want to get rid of this “Adil”. Of course, somebody has said rightly: Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan. Poor Adil!
By the way brother, if somebody is in India on 4th March at 21:30:59, it is never possible to have 5th March in USA at that time. It will be somewhere mid afternoon of 4th Mar only. By any supernatural calculation 5th March of USA can never be 4th March in India. I think you are intelligent peoples, you know, USA is on the negative side of GMT while India is on positive side. Yes, opposite is possible. You should have given example nationality of Australia or Japan instead of USA. Poor Mathematics? And to repeat, brother, fear God, because even if you don’t believe, the truth is that you will be accountable for everything, even lies (come out of the illusion that Jesus already paid for your sin and you can do anything). That is the truth of God of all human being. Accept the truth! That will be first step toward righteousness. May God guide you and me to the Truth.
nice debate
Brother, Thank you to remind me this possibility, but you did the mistake again. It is your problem , I should not impose your mistake, on whole Christian world (unlike some narrow minded people). You know very well regarding Adil, whether he is from USA or India. Why Sakshi want to get rid of this “Adil”. Of course, somebody has said rightly: Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan. Poor Adil!
By the way brother, if somebody is in India on 4th March at 21:30:59, it is never possible to have 5th March in USA at that time. It will be somewhere mid afternoon of 4th Mar only. By any supernatural calculation 5th March of USA can never be 4th March in India. I think you are intelligent peoples, you know, USA is on the negative side of GMT while India is on positive side. Yes, opposite is possible. You should have given example nationality of Australia or Japan instead of USA. Poor Mathematics? And to repeat, brother, fear God, because even if you don’t believe, the truth is that you will be accountable for everything, even lies (come out of the illusion that Jesus already paid for your sin and you can do anything). That is the truth of God of all human being. Accept the truth! That will be first step toward righteousness. May God guide you and me to the Truth.
My friend M Comforter,
At last you did respond to the question I raised. Before looking into it let me introduce myself a little bit so that you may not continue in your confusion.
I am an Indian. I came to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1986 and became a Christian. That is the time I found forgiveness of my sins and as a result of that I realized the purpose and meaning of my life and received assurance of my destiny in the presence of God according to God’s own promises in the Holy Bible.
Last year I was appointed as the director of an organization which is based outside of India. I travel a lot visiting countries on both sides of India—east and west. Some of the countries I visit on business purposes are Muslim countries. Right now I am in a Muslim dominated country whose clock runs ahead of India’s. Sometimes I am on the other side of India. I wonder if that makes sense to you at all. If you don’t understand it and its implication on Sakshi posting-time never mind. Add to this my ‘typos.’ (I am not a perfect typist). I don’t want to split hair on those things. My posting was published a week late (God is my witness) and Sakshi wrote me explaining the reason for the late posting. I am satisfied with that. There ends the matter for me. For some things Muslims need supernatural power to understand. But the same things are actually understood by others with the usage of common sense (because they have the common sense, though!). It appears to me that SAN’s comments above are apt and need no further comment.
I personally admire Sakshi team’s boldness to face Islam head-on. Although I don’t adopt some of their approaches I still have common ground with them. May the Lord continue to use them to expose the dark side of Islam. If they call me their team mate it’s an honour. By the way, last week I got a rare privilege to address 104 members of a conference. I was invited to teach them the true nature of Islam and the plight of Muslims. I told them some of the ‘stupid stories’ of Islam called ‘hadiths.’ It was a hilarious experience for most of them. 80 percent of them were once Muslims following Muhammad’s religion. Now they are all redeemed and found new life in the Lord Jesus Christ. You see, since my passion is to expose Islam and provide the truth of God to Muslims sometimes I do get opportunities like this. Although usually I am busy with my own responsibilities I do accept some of the invitations and do my best. Sometimes I write answers like this during my travels, visits etc.
Now let me deal with your answer:
First please try to understand what my contention is all about regarding the ‘stupid’ story you quoted. If you read carefully I am accusing you of lying, deception and dishonesty. Why and how are you accused of those qualities? Looks like I need to do some spoon feeding here. No problem, I will try my best.
Obviously the story you quoted is a ‘stupid story’ and it should have been written by a STUPID. In the same way, only a STUPID can think/assume that it is the story used by Christians! Funny though, there are quite a number of stupids who think that that’s what Christians use to explain the Biblical ‘salvation.’ (Dear readers, I don’t think you fall into this category, but you can easily understand which category Mr. M Comforter’s belongs to!). You did quote the ‘stupid story.’ Why did you quote this story in the first place? Since you assumed that it is the story that Christians use to explain ‘salvation.’ If not why did you quote it?
The blog is a ‘Muslim blog.’ (Muslimmatters.org). It could be a moderate sect of Islam or something like that. Their vision statement says this: “MuslimMatters strives to become the leading Muslim multimedia platform for the articulation and implementation of orthodoxy amidst the unprecedented complexity and unique challenges of contemporary life.”
You wrote, “I remember one statement, on one blog on Christian salvation, really interesting.”
Then you wrote the ‘stupid story.’ But your ‘stupid story’ is not on the blog on ‘Christian Salvation,’ but on something else. This is your ‘LIE.’ (It’s not a big issue for you, right?!). Let’s move on…
Your ‘stupid story’ is found under the article “My Passion for Jesus Christ” which was written by an Australian who converted to Islam. The author makes his religion very clear at the end of his article. The ‘stupid story’ itself is posted by ‘Fais.’ It is a Muslim name (there could be different spellings). Whether it is a Muslim or an atheist, whoever wrote it, we can say with certainty that it is not written by a Christian. If one examines the blog and its contents one can easily conclude that in all probability your ‘stupid story’ is written by a Muslim. In any case, the more important question for our discussion here is who used it? You (Mr. M Comforter) used it. You quoted it in our discussion. Why did you quote it? To tell what Muslims believe or what Christians believe? You quoted it in order to give the impression that the way Christians explain Biblical Salvation looks like your ‘stupid story.’ This is your ‘DECEPTION.’
You wrote, “I love your comment that this story was stupid, even we Muslims also feel the same. That is why, we object to such stupid salvation.”
Either you don’t really believe that this what Christians teach/believe or you are a real stupid to think that this is what Christians teach/believe. Which is true? If you agree that you are an ignorant stupid I don’t mind stopping at this point. But if you protest saying that you are not a stupid then you should have known that your ‘stupid story’ is not what Christians teach/believe, in which case you prove very clearly to everyone that you are employing ‘DISHONESTY.’
You wrote, “So, according to you the story (comment 17 point 1) which I presented was not stupid rather it’s interpretation was wrong. But, if you see properly, I did not give my interpretation rather it is self evident. Please quote this story (nice simulating stupid story) to any of your friend and ask him for any different interpretation. You will get the answer.”
Thanks for your advice. You know what my friends answer is: It is one of the most STUPID stories, should have been written by a disgusting STUPID and only a terminal STUPID can assume that Christians teach or believe such a story.
Let us assume that you are not a homosexual. But somebody told a fabricated story that was meant to accuse you of homosexuality to another person who in turn retold that story to you. What would you do? You try to explain to that person that it is not a true story. After trying your best to prove that it is a false story made up by one of your enemies if you realize that the second person still believes the story adamantly what would you do? Probably at some point you would leave that matter to God having the confirmation that both the one who made up the story and the one who told you that story are the most wicked and evil men that you know of. That’s exactly what I am doing now about your ‘stupid story.’ May the true God deal with you and the one who wrote it. By your character you showed us what kind of religion, prophet and god you belong to.
My sincere advice: don’t go to and believe in ‘stupid stories.’ Let’s focus on real issues that will benefit every reader.
By the way, the stupid hadith story you quoted is till a mystery to me and the readers. Would you please explain to us the reason why the Quranic Allah created houses in paradise for those who are only going to go to hell. I remember you quoted that Allah knows their future, if that is the case why in the world he prepared houses in paradise for those who end up in hell knowing fully well that they would not go there. Is Allah confused (Nauzibullah!) Oops! There lurks one more problem!! If bad people’s houses in paradise are occupied by the good people, what about the houses that are originally prepared for the good people in paradise? Do they remain empty or something else? Please don’t forget to give us your enlightened answer.
“Forsake your folly and live, and proceed in the way of understanding.” (Holy Bible: Proverbs 22:12)
Adil.
1. Brother, I did not respond AT LAST, but at your FIRST request and instantly. You did mistake again.
2. I knew, you were from India as I stated in last comment and today you had to switch from USA to Gulf to cover your lie.
3. Brother, I have reasons to say that you and the SAN are one and the same.
a. Even your team mate Adam believes so. And when he said so (comment 24), SAN didn’t react. So, even a Christian will come to the same conclusion if he reads the matter in detail.
b. When I COMMENTED TO YOU regarding your identity as one from SAN, SAN overreacted as if you and SAN are one and the same. By the way you and SAN are same or different, it doesn’t matter to me but it matters a lot to SAN.
c. You call me by same title as SAN “Muslim comforter” —inspiration?
d. I have direct mail from SAN which has similar style of language (? somewhat abusive) as you have even selection of words.
e. Last posting of yours was published one day before you posted (which was tried to be covered but exposed again).
4. Brother, it is well proved fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. (so, your data is a rubbish deception)
5. You challenged me to produce the website as if I was lying. What happened to you now? You didn’t say me single word regarding my truthfulness, while you did the opposite in length even before confirming the truth. Brother, learn to accept the truth gracefully.
6. It is your lack of understanding not my lie. If it is written “…statement, on one blog ON Christian salvation”, it could mean the second “on” to be “regarding”. E.g. I saw a documentary on one TV channel ON water purification”.
7. The page (may not be whole blog) I referred to you, even though appeared to be from a reverted Muslim but I doubt it to be a plot. I have many reasons to support this including some personal mails. Don’t you see hundreds of website around on muslim identity, is actually Orientalists’ plot and many of them have been banned in muslim country like Saudi Arabia. Isn’t Adil, a muslim identity used by a Christian.
8. Brother if you really converted to Christianity, it is unfortunate for you. May God help you reach the truth. You can read my advice to such converts on “Muslim matters” blog. Inshallah, if you pray to God sincerely, you may see the light again.
9. Thanks for the information regarding your friend’s response on the story. I love your friend too as he also affirmed that the story was stupid. May God guide him, you and all Christians to understand the stupidity of the similitude of this story i.e. Christian salvation.
10. Now, you came to your level and brought an unethical aspect to argument by using illogical and inappropriate use of word homosexual to hide your face. Probably, you recently returned from USA. I think SAN don’t find this word (homosexual) abusive and allowed your article to be published instantly and the article which had nothing was held for one week. Amazing? What do you want to say? First of all, you read the following properly. I also agree that “the story” is stupid, so did you and your friend. So, we are in consensus. I again say that this story or any other story parallel to this stupidity is stupid. Christians should think over this.
11. Where is the response to my comments, explanations and questions? Such a big comment by you, and not one point touched from our ongoing debate. Amazing covering up.
12. So, at last you raised one objection to my article on 24th January (more than one and half month back) i.e. comment 19. So, I assume that all your darkness related to Islam would have cleared and you may help others also to get rid of such misconception and at least you will not misquote to others, especially after getting clarification, if you are truthful.
I also think that this point needs further clarification and detail and correction of few typing mistakes. First of all the correction of typing mistake in the link I gave (i.e. http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=6396). Here, the last number should be 6395 instead of 6396, to be exactly on the topic, (even this page is also related to same topic). When, I found this mistake after posting, I corrected and reposted, but even then, the first one was published. SAN can check in their old database if they have. Now regarding this point, actually, I got from internet as I mentioned in my comment, needs to be more clear.
This is related to your comment, in which hadiths of Sahih Muslim (book 37 hadith 6666 & 6668) seem to say that when Muslim would die, he will go to heaven and Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. And the link I (as by the writer of the article) gave above was of a page of website having the related material from Sharah-Nawwi (on explanation of Hadith of Sahih Muslim by an early Muhaddith), one of the best explanation of Sahih Muslim. Here, it is explained by him that everybody has two “ manzil” (which is translated as house) one in hell or another in heaven. Word “manzil” can be more appropriately translated here as “destination”. So, everybody has two destinations, if he (believers) goes to heaven the other one (disbeliever) will go to hell. And disbeliever (esp. Jews and Christian) will make it to hell not because muslim got heaven, rather because of their disbelief. And scholars say that these stories are related to the sin instigated by Jews and Christians and followed by Muslim. And you know that muslims are always fearing of accountability, so they will ask for forgiveness and will be forgiven while Christians will be in illusion of Heaven as Jesus died for their sin and Jews in delusion of God’s own people and they will keep on sinning and will make it to hell, while Muslims who may be the seemingly destined to hell will go to heaven and in his place (hell), Christians and Jews will get their “manzil” (house or destination). Even in urdu language word “manzil” is used for destination as well as house e.g “Malik Manzil” for house, and many hindi film songs like “…meri manzil hai kahan?”. For further details you read comment 19.
For us, even though it was translated as “house”, we never thought it to be literal house but something like destination, but you people have habit of misquoting and mispresenting Arabic words of Quran and hadith. If you don’t know Arabic ask anybody to read this hadith explanation and the next to it, it will be further helpful and you can verify the word “manzil” there. How come you are so narrow tunneled when comes to words in Quran & hadith while you extend yourself beyond the limit (most of the time illogically and beyond dictionary) when it comes to Bible. E.g.
“Luke 14: 26If any [man] come to me, and HATE not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” KJV
“Luke 14: 26 “If any one comes to me and does not HATE his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.” RSV
What do you mean by HATE here, of course not the literal hate. You might believe, but we can’t believe our beloved prophet Jesus (pbuh) would expect one to hate his family members.
I tried to explain all your doubts in clear terms. May God give you ability to see them. And Allah knows the best.
May God guide you and me to the truth.
Comforter.
To SAN, This is around 4 days, my answers to comment before is not published. My response was very brief, so it can’t be expected to take 4 days to read those few lines. Can I know the reason? I think I’m more fair in language and aggression than others, who get immediate response (? except in one case). If you feel anything abusive, must inform me regarding that word or sentence. Or, you are simply delaying, so that it loses it’s effect or, you simply don’t want to be exposed further.
May God guide you to face the truth gracefully.
I’m herewith sending the same comment again.
1. Brother, I did not respond AT LAST, but at your FIRST request and instantly. You did mistake again.
2. I knew, you were from India as I stated in last comment and today you had to switch from USA to Gulf to cover your lie.
3. Brother, I have reasons to say that you and the SAN are one and the same.
a. Even your team mate Adam believes so. And when he said so (comment 24), SAN didn’t react. So, even a Christian will come to the same conclusion, if he reads the matter in detail.
b. When I COMMENTED TO YOU regarding your identity as one from SAN, SAN overreacted as if you and SAN are one and the same. By the way you and SAN are same or different, it doesn’t matter to me but it matters a lot to SAN.
c. You call me by same title as SAN “Muslim comforter” —inspiration?
d. I have direct mail from SAN which has similar style of language (? somewhat abusive) as you have, even selection of words.
e. Last posting of yours was published one day before you posted (which was tried to be covered but exposed again).
4. Brother, it is well proved fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. (so, your data is a rubbish deception)
5. You challenged me to produce the website as if I was lying. What happened to you now? You didn’t say me single word regarding my truthfulness, while you did the opposite in length even before confirming the truth. Brother, learn to accept the truth gracefully.
6. It is your lack of understanding not my lie. If it is written “…statement, on one blog ON Christian salvation”, it could mean the second “on” to be “regarding”. E.g. I saw a documentary on one TV channel ON water purification”.
7. The page (may not be whole blog) I referred to you, even though appeared to be from a reverted Muslim but I doubt it, to be a plot. I have many reasons to support this including some personal mails. Don’t you see hundreds of website around on muslim identity, is actually Orientalists’ plot and many of them have been banned in muslim country like Saudi Arabia. Isn’t Adil, a muslim identity used by a Christian.
8. Brother if you really converted to Christianity, it is unfortunate for you. May God help you reach the truth. You can read my advice to such converts on “Muslim matters” blog. Inshallah, if you pray to God sincerely, you may see the light again.
9. Thanks for the information regarding your friend’s response on the story. I love your friend too as he also affirmed that the story was stupid. May God guide him, you and all Christians to understand the stupidity of the similitude of this story i.e. Christian salvation.
10. Now, you came to your level and brought an unethical aspect to argument by using illogical and inappropriate use of word homosexual to hide your face. Probably, you recently returned from USA. I think SAN don’t find this word (homosexual) abusive and allowed your article to be published instantly and the article which had nothing was held for one week. Amazing? What do you want to say? First of all, you read the following properly. I also agree that “the story” is stupid, so did you and your friend. So, we are in consensus. I again say that this story or any other story parallel to this stupidity is stupid. Christians should think over this.
11. Where is the response to my comments, explanations and questions? Such a big comment by you, and not one point touched from our ongoing debate. Amazing covering up.
12. So, at last you raised one objection to my article on 24th January (more than one and half month back) i.e. comment 19. So, I assume that all your darkness related to Islam would have cleared and you may help others also to get rid of such misconception and at least you will not misquote to others, especially after getting clarification, if you are truthful.
I also think that this point needs further clarification and detail and correction of few typing mistakes. First of all the correction of typing mistake in the link I gave (i.e. http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=6396). Here, the last number should be 6395 instead of 6396, to be exactly on the topic, (even this page is also related to same topic). When, I found this mistake after posting, I corrected and reposted, but even then, the first one was published. SAN can check in their old database if they have. Now regarding this point, actually, I got from internet as I mentioned in my comment, needs to be more clear.
This is related to your comment, in which hadiths of Sahih Muslim (book 37 hadith 6666 & 6668) seem to say that when Muslim would die, he will go to heaven and Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. And the link I (as by the writer of the article) gave above was of a page of website having the related material from Sharah-Nawwi (on explanation of Hadith of Sahih Muslim by an early Muhaddith), one of the best explanation of Sahih Muslim. Here, it is explained by him that everybody has two “ manzil” (which is translated as house) one in hell or another in heaven. Word “manzil” can be more appropriately translated here as “destination”. So, everybody has two destinations, if he (believers) goes to heaven the other one (disbeliever) will go to hell. And disbeliever (esp. Jews and Christian) will make it to hell not because muslim got heaven, rather because of their disbelief. And scholars say that these stories are related to the sin instigated by Jews and Christians and followed by Muslim. And you know that muslims are always fearing of accountability, so they will ask for forgiveness and will be forgiven while Christians will be in illusion of Heaven as Jesus died for their sin and Jews in delusion of God’s own people and they will keep on sinning and will make it to hell, while Muslims who may be the seemingly destined to hell will go to heaven and in his place (hell), Christians and Jews will get their “manzil” (house or destination). Even in urdu language word “manzil” is used for house as well as destination e.g “Malik Manzil” for house, and many hindi film songs like “…meri manzil hai kahan?”. For further details you read comment 19.
For us, even though it was translated as “house”, we never thought it to be literal house but something like destination, but you people have habit of misquoting and mispresenting Arabic words of Quran and hadith. If you don’t know Arabic ask anybody to read this hadith explanation and the next to it (from the link), it will be further helpful and you can verify the word “manzil” there. How come you are so narrow tunneled when comes to words in Quran & hadith, while you extend yourself beyond the limit (most of the time illogically and beyond dictionary) when it comes to Bible. E.g.
“Luke 14: 26If any [man] come to me, and HATE not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” KJV
“Luke 14: 26 “If any one comes to me and does not HATE his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.” RSV
What do you mean by HATE here, of course not the literal hate. You might believe, but we can’t believe our beloved prophet Jesus (pbuh) would expect one to hate his family members.
I tried to explain all your doubts in clear terms. May God give you ability to see them. And Allah knows the best.
May God guide you and me to the truth.
Comforter.
Dear M Coforter,
(I am writing this from a country that is on the eastern side of India)
Thanks for admitting the fact that ‘your story’ is a STUPID story. Let me reiterate to you that we Christians understand and know very well that only STUPIDS think/believe that such a story explains biblical salvation. I cannot expect from you any better understanding of the biblical salvation than ‘your stupid story.’ Congratulation for demonstrating to us the inability and bankruptcy of the Muslim mind in grasping biblical salvation.
I leave your explanation about your LIE, DECEPTION and DISHONESTY with regard to ‘your stupid story’ to the honest readers to decide, whether it is convincing/meaningful or not.
Regarding Quranic Allah building two houses, one in hell and one in heaven for everyone, you tried to get away with Arabic language gymnastics. Let us see whether you actually solved it or made it more complicated to yourself and to other Muslims.
You say ‘manzil’ is a destination. You wrote, “…one of the best explanation of Sahih Muslim. Here, it is explained by him that everybody has two “ manzil” (which is translated as house) one in hell or another in heaven. Word “manzil” can be more appropriately translated here as “destination”. So, everybody has two destinations…”
Even if your so-called explanation is correct and ‘manzil’ means only a destination in this context the question still remains.
You said that Allah knows the future of every person. If Allah knows the future of every person that means Allah knows where a person would end-up finally. If that is the case, why did Quranic Allah made TWO ‘destinations’ for each person, one in hell and one in heaven? For example, if Q Allah knows for sure that you are ultimately going to end-up in hell why did he make a second ‘destination’ for you in heaven also? Could you explain this to us please? First try to understand my question and then answer. Don’t write something just because you have to write something to defend your religion.
We are looking into one by one. There is more to come. Don’t grow impatient.
“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man is he who listens to counsel.” (Holy Bible: Proverbs 12:15)
Adil.
1. Brother, from the very first comment on this “story”, I have been confirming that this story is stupid. Why “thanks”, after so long? May be you have shortage of words. And I again say that this story and any story like this is nothing but stupid. But when I say you to go in to the depth of this stupid story (or similar one), you are simply escaping the scene by accusing me and whole Muslim of the same, from which you are going through (lack of understanding). Any body can understand this. Thank you for exposing yourself. I hope you to be honest. Why don’t you present this story to your addressee in next gathering. Of course, with the mention of it’s stupidity. May some of them really understand the stupidity of this story.
2. There is an institute, training students and conducting exam. And at the end giving them two destinations 1) to those who pass, a berth to M.B.B.S, and 2) to those who fail, a berth to same training course, to restudy the same. There were two types of students ,one (suppose X), average student, who were negligent in the beginning, but later started fearing of being failure and started working hard and sincerely, and passed. And second one (suppose Y), intelligent student, but remained negligent (probably overconfident) and failed. And on the result day when the director is announcing the result, saying we gave you two destinations, X made it to destination 1 (berth to M.B.B.S) even though Y seemed to have them and Y made it to destination 2 (berth to restudy course), instead of X, who initially seemed to have that.
Could you understand this? If not, no body can help you. I fear, you may label this, to be of “English language gymnastic” . I still pray to God to guide you to be one amongst understanding.
3. Brother, I am not impatient rather exposing your swift escaping from the scene for last two months. Because you have time to present yourself and your supposed activity in length (Readers can see the comment 31 of Mr. Adil), while when it comes to answering my simple questions you have been escaping plainly and trying to divert topic by misquoting and when gets the appropriate answer, you simple evade the scene by “I cannot comment” or, sometimes losing temper and accusing me and even whole Muslim with wrong and baseless words.
I think you have a big bulk of back log, why don’t you start one by one from them also, instead of presenting yourself or accusing me.
I think, you should learn to listen and understand others. Give some effort to your gray matter and try to see the thing, with open eye and come out of illusion.
(Holy Bible: Proverbs 12:15)
“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man is he who listens to counsel.”
Holy Quran Ch 18: 103-105.
… “Shall We tell you the greatest losers in respect of (their) deeds? . “Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they thought that they were acquiring good by their deeds! . “They are those who deny the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of their Lord and the Meeting with Him (in the Hereafter). So their works are in vain, and on the Day of Resurrection, We shall not give them any weight.
May God guide you and me to the Truth.
Comforter.
Dear M Comforter,
I came back from a visit to another country and finally got some time to respond to your posting. Hope you will enjoy this.
You wrote:
“Brother, from the very first comment on this “story”, I have been confirming that this story is stupid. Why “thanks”, after so long? May be you have shortage of words. And I again say that this story and any story like this is nothing but stupid.”
My reply:
You couldn’t possibly understand the reason why I thanked you, right? That’s fair enough. How can I expect you to understand that simple thing? If you could understand what I wrote you would not have used such a STUPID story which only rivals most of the Hadith stories. Let me try to make it ‘simpler’ for your sake. I thanked you for admitting the fact that ‘your story’ is a STUPID story and such stories can only be written by STUPIDS (Fais: a Muslim) and used by STUPIDS (of course here by you the Muslim comforter!).
By the way, for your information, Christians don’t write or use such stories. If you think otherwise please show us which Christian wrote a stupid story like yours and which Christian used a stupid story like yours in order to explain Biblical salvation? Here I would like to quote a couple of STUPID stories like ‘your stupid’ story. Unlike you, I am not quoting any 21st Century STUPIDS but 8th Century ‘wise’ Muslim writers. You can write and explain to us in what way these stories are better than ‘your STUPID’ story. These are the stories on which Islam is built:
Story 1: Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said “If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease.”
Story 2: Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 516:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “If anyone of you rouses from sleep and performs the ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then blowing it out thrice, because Satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all the night.”
Story 3: Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, “Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?” I replied, “Allah and His Apostle know better.” He said, “It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: “And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.” (36.38)
The first story makes Muhammad the first wise Muslim ‘pathologist,’ second story makes him the first great Muslim ‘theologian’ (because he discovered that Satan is ‘omnipresent’) and the third story makes him first outstanding Muslim ‘astronomer.’ Now, let us not forget the fact that other umma (Muslims) are only followers of this wise, great, outstanding person.
(Readers please note that the above STUPID stories are not in the Quran, they are from Hadith literature which is indispensable to understand the Quran and the practice of Islam. The above stories are self explanatory. These are not written by any ‘wicked Christian,’ but by pious Muslims! You can compare these stories with the STUPID story that was written by ‘Fais’ the Muslim. You can’t miss the similarities and the ‘wisdom’ typical of the stories written by Muslims in their efforts to understand their own religion as well as Christianity!)
You wrote:
“Why don’t you present this story to your addressee in next gathering. Of course, with the mention of it’s stupidity. May some of them really understand the stupidity of this story.”
My reply:
Thanks for your advice. I have already thought of such a plan in order to demonstrate the standard of Muslim mind in understanding Biblical salvation. As you mentioned I will definitely seek opportunities to mention to my audience ‘your story’ and ask them to evaluate the stupidity of the writer of the story and the stupidity of the one who believed and quoted it. (Readers can guess the response of my audience!) Again thanks for this material. Probably this will enable me to drive my point home in explaining the ‘wisdom’ of the hadith stories written by ‘wise’ Muslims in shaping the ‘final’ religion.
You wrote:
“There is an institute, training students and conducting exam… Could you understand this? If not, no body can help you. I fear, you may label this, to be of “English language gymnastic” . I still pray to God to guide you to be one amongst understanding.”
My reply:
(a) If there are two possible higher study opportunities for students to get into after the exams we don’t say “each student has two destinations.” That would imply that each student would go to both courses. Better way to say that would be, “each student faces two destinations.” For example: soon I will be coming back to India. If I say “I have two destinations” on my return that means I stop by in two different places. If somebody ‘has’ two destinations that means he/she will be going to two places, one after the other. So according to your ‘example’ the ‘wise’ Muslim scholar Sharah Nawwi says “So, everybody has two destinations/houses” (hell and heaven). That simply means each person will be going to go both places (hell and heaven). I remember some of the Muslims believe every person will have to go to hell before going to paradise. This ‘belief’ fits very well in your explanation. But how about those who go only to hell? Do they have to go to ‘paradise’ before they go to hell in order to make your explanation meaningful?
(b) Whether Muhammad said, Muslim said, Bukhari said, Sharah Nawwi said or you said the basic outline is as follows: Q Allah declared that he makes many men and jinn for hell; he knows the future of each person (obviously because he predestined their future); he wrote down the life of each person which is called ‘thakdir’ (if he knows why should he write it down? Maybe he is afraid that he would forget it or maybe to read it in his free time! Nauzibullah!! By the way, the first thing he had ever created was a pen according to one of the stupid stories of Hadith!!!); yet he prepares two places for each person one in hell one in heaven; then he leads them astray to get them into hell (just to make sure that whatever he wrote down about their future comes true); then he punishes them into hell for not listening to his advice and mend their ways! (This is the epitome of sadism and cruelty!!); Muslim will take Christian’s place in paradise and Christian will take Muslim’s place in hell (their original places in respective places will remain as mystery); Then all the Muslims say, ‘Quranic Allah is merciful, forgiving and wise’!!! Rest of the world stays in stunned disbelief feeling sorry for them.
You wrote:
“Brother, I am not impatient rather exposing your swift escaping from the scene for last two months. Because you have time to present yourself and your supposed activity in length (Readers can see the comment 31 of Mr. Adil), while when it comes to answering my simple questions you have been escaping plainly and trying to divert topic by misquoting and when gets the appropriate answer, you simple evade the scene by “I cannot comment” or, sometimes losing temper and accusing me and even whole Muslim with wrong and baseless words.”
My reply:
Many things I explained. You couldn’t get the answer. Why? Because your Muslim mind is ‘closed’ to Biblical truths. On the other hand you are so ‘wise’ that you can understand my explanation in a completely unrelated way. Example: With regard to Biblical salvation I tried to explain how a sinner can be saved first through ‘law’ and then through ‘grace.’ Along the way, I explained about ‘agape’ (divine sacrificial) love. You understood it in a totally strange way and started to relate it to physical ‘circumcision’! That is due to the effect of Islam on your mind!! I have very little hope that you would ever come out of that effect, though. In any case, I will continue to respond to your pathetic and false accusations against God’s truth, love and revelation. Not that I expect you to ‘understand’ it, because you are only good in relating ‘agape’ to ‘circumcision’, but for the sake of other sincere and truth seeking Muslims who are willing to understand Almighty’s grace towards sinful people and get benefit out of it without rejecting it.
“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man is he who listens to counsel.” (Holy Bible: Proverbs 12:15)
May God make you wise enough to understand His love and salvation.
Adil.
1. Brother, thanks again for admitting that SUCH stories can only be written by STUPIDS (More than 40 authors, right?) and used by STUPIDS (!).
2. Your misunderstanding related to hadiths:
After the “Great Fitna (i.e. death of Caliph Uthman)”, Shias and the hypocrites started attributing anything and everything to prophet (pbuh). Then the need was felt to verify them and filter them. Scholars adopted the same technique of verifying through the chain as it was done at the time of prophet (pbuh) and they set up certain criteria for the same .e.g. truthfulness of the narrator, Period of presence of narrators, mental status narrators, their lifestyle etc. they worked very hard and they collected even the biographies of the narrators. Many books of hadith were collected and six of them are together called Sihah Sittah (the six authentic ). Even though they were called authentic still they had many weak hadiths in them e.g. there are many weak traditions present in Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah etc. so why were they called the authentic six? It was a scholarly use of the term because the life history and details of all the narrators in these books are present in one compiled book to be verified at any time for their authenticity. That is why even centuries later, in the last century many hadiths from Sihah sittah were filtered by one renowned scholar of hadith Nasruddin Albani (rahamatullah alaih). Study of hadith is a big field and based on evidences and legitimate proofs, that is why called the science of Hadith. It is not the way the Bible gets it’s revision; few scholars will sit and they will scrutinize the so called manuscripts and add and delete from the supposed book of God. Even among Sihah sittah, two are even called as Sahih (authentic by name) i.e. Bukhari and Muslim. And they must be credited for their hard work. Out of millions of hadiths they collected, only few thousands were selected to be kept in their compilation (strictly based on the criteria). And weak traditions were filtered out mostly.
In the study of Hadith, it is the chain of narrators which is thoroughly examined and was a major concern to the scholars of hadith. Chain of narrator consisted of human beings. (we accept this fact and don’t believe blindly that everything is inspired by God unlike our Christian brothers. It does not matter to them, even what the author wrote in the Bible, they firmly believe everything is from God e.g. Luke 1:1-4, he wrote that what he heard from eyewitnesses he was writing , still our Christian brothers believe that Gospel was not heard version but revealed version ). And as these hadiths were collected 200-300yrs after the departure of Prophet and many narrators are involved, THERE IS A CHANCE OF FORGETFULNESS OR MISTAKE EVEN IF THE NARRATOR IS AUTHENTIC. We believe that these two Sahihs are authentic esp. when you see as a whole, but if you see with scholar’s eye it never means that every word of hadith are as authentic as those of The Quran.
There are many instances in the sahihs which seems contradicting and funny. So they should be examined with regard to all the aspects like the time of that hadith, situation, the person, the motive etc. And after considering all these, scholar gives verdict regarding the hadith and its inference. And to make it more clear every word of hadith can’t be said to be 100% acceptable (as it appears to a layman ) even if they are from the authentic books. One hadith in Bukhari seems to tell that the Prophet (pbuh) was contemplating suicide in the beginning of revelation, when it stopped for some time (nouzbillah). We Muslim consider it blasphemy if taken in the literal sense. No scholar & even layman accept this to be a fact even though it is written in Bukhari. Why? Because it is against the prophet’s basic teaching and he predicted hell for the person who commits suicide. There are many ways to explain this hadith and none showing this literal meaning. For details, you consult the scholar or at least the student of Islamic studies (Not the Deviants). In case, it is your next question tell me. Inshallah I’ll try to give you the fact. And to no surprise, the suicide rate In Saudi Arabia is least in the world, not amazing if it is 90:1 between Israel and Saudi Arabia. No scholar of Islamic history even contemplated committing suicide esp. even if he is already having this hadith with him. Why? They know the inner truth regarding what this hadith means.
There is one point in Hadith verification which I want to make you know. There is something called “mutawatir” hadith and “ahaad” hadith.
Mutawatir: Those are ones that exist multiple times in a single volume and they exist in many hadith collections as well and well known to people of that time. These are one of the most authentic, as different narration of the same topic can be cross checked and prophets actual words and intention can be approximated.
Ahaad hadith : A single Hadith is narrated by multiple people. Regardless of their number, the Hadith is still considered as one Hadith. An Ahaad Hadith is one that is either one or very few of the same Hadiths. And “ahaad” hadith is one which doesnot have many versions to verify, the exact wordings.
So, we cannot say that every word of the hadith is 100% duplicate of what prophet told. And when it comes to 100% purity we have word of God called as Quran, having billions of copy around the world and present around for more than 1400 years without a difference of word.
Keep these facts regarding hadith in your scarce brain and have the wisdom of those wonderful hadiths which your intelligence found, “funny”.
A). First hadith:
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said “If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease.”
And I would like to quote one other version of same hadith :
Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 673
Narrated Abu Huraira: “Allah’s Apostle said, “If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, LET HIM DIP ALL OF IT (INTO THE VESSEL) AND then throw it away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for it) i.e. the treatment for that disease.”
So, inference from this hadith can be as follows:
a. Wing of a house fly is having cure for the disease – amazing?
b. One should dip it (in the drink), and probably should drink it (as it has the cure).
Answer: For a layman of present time it may seem strange, which you are utilizing. Contemporary layman needs logic or science to strengthen their imaan. That is why Islam is fulfilling their desire and strengthening their faith by proving the things with logic and tests. You don’t need supernatural logic to swallow these facts [as it is to 1+1+1=1 (not 3) ]. That is one of the reason peoples are coming to Islam in amazing proportion. And another reason is people like, you who are projecting things in doubtful manner to win the candidate (by hook or crook). And it is giving muslims the opportunity to clear the facts with proof and taking the benefit of being on Truth.
So, let me clear facts regarding housefly. It mostly lives on dirty things. So, dirty things are sticking to their body and they carry them to other things (also eatables). So, it can act as vector to many diseases. I think you agree with me at least until here? Now, one can use the brain and think deeper that, why this small organism, living on dirty infectious things are not itself affected by them. Scientists do think this way. Wait a little … So there must be certain things secreted by body surface including wings which neutralize them. Yes, many researches have been done and it is found that there is certain chemical secreted by the surface which neutralizes the organism and also there are certain bacteriophages on them which destroy or eat up bacterias (in layman language).
Proof ?
a) An article in Vol. 43 of the Rockefeller Foundation’s Journal of Experimental Medicine (1927) p. 1037 stated:
“The flies were given some of the cultured microbes for certain diseases. After some time the germs died and no trace was left of them while a germ-devouring substance formed in the flies – bacteriophages. If a saline solution were to be obtained from these flies it would contain bacteriophages able to suppress four kinds of disease-inducing germs and to benefit immunity against four other kinds.”
b) Dr. Ghyath Hasan al-Ahmad in his book al-Tibb al-Nabawi fi Daw’ al-`Ilm al-Hadith (“Prophetic Medicine in the light of Modern Science”) (1995 2:188-189) mentions that a Dr. Nabîh Dâ`ish ran an experiment at King `Abdul al-`Aziz University in Riyadh in which he created ten bacterial cultures from samples of sterilized fluid into which a fly fell without being immersed; ten more bacterial cultures from samples into which a fly fell and was immersed once; ten more from samples into which the fly was immersed twice; and ten more from samples into which the fly was immersed three times. The results showed that bacterial colonies thrived in the first set but were stunted and depleted in the second, more so in the third, and most in the fourth set.
c) I think you will be thinking that I am trying to cover the matter by quoting from a medical journal which is not easy to verify or quoting from the research done by muslim, in an Islamic country, so I am quoting another article from a Christian country, on it’s official website (i.e. Australia), see what it writes . Here is the verbatim.
“The SURFACE of flies is the last place you would expect to find antibiotics, yet that is exactly where a team of Australian researchers is concentrating their efforts…..”
For details click the link below
http://abc.gov.au/science/articles/2002/10/01/689400.htm
Amazingly, they got some antibiotic like activity from surface which they extracted by washing the fly in ethanol and other filtering mixture. They got the substance (antibiotic like) but still it is not been identified as which category it belongs to.
So, the surface of fly has some antibiotic and some phage like activity i.e. cure for the infection, it is carrying on it’s surface. And as it is expected if something secreted on the surface will be deeper to the infectious material which stick to it’s body from outside (re-read this sentence). It is very rational that if fly sits on a thing, infectious material might stick to it and be transported (being more superficial) and the useful things like antiobiotic activity and bacteriophage activity will be deeper and can be transported only if fly surface is being touched or washed deeper. Our prophet (pbuh) informed this 1400 yrs back. So, if prophet (pbuh) told to dip it more to get cure from that infection, it is very logical and scientific. Hope there be more researches in future and those antibiotic and phages (through recombinant DNA technology) are developed as a cure for many diseases spread by fly. It will be something like antibiotic ointment synthesized from herb and modified chemically and in past people used to scrub the leaves of those herbs.
Hope you got the point. Now, would you please tell me about scientific and logical mistakes done by your God (Jesus, as you believe). And tell me how funny they are? Have a glimpse.
i. Matthew 13:31-32 ” Another parable he put before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of MUSTARD SEED which a man took and sowed in his field; IT IS THE SMALLEST OF ALL SEEDS, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.”
The mustard seed is not the smallest of all seeds. Others, such as the orchid seed, are smaller.
ii. Mark 16:18 “they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
Christians so bothered by the falsehood of this verse due to the many fatalities they suffered because of it, that the Bible theologians insist on denying these verses by saying: “The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.”.
iii. John 12:24 “I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and DIES, it remains only a single seed. But if it DIES, it produces many seeds.”
That is scientifically false. The dead seed does not produce new seeds.
What do you say about God (Jesus) the biologist and theologian. (nouzbillah)
B). Second hadith:
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 516:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “If anyone of you rouses from sleep and performs the ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then blowing it out thrice, because Satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all the night.”
Your objections : probably
a. How come Shaitan be in nose? May be omnipresent?
b. How Mohammad (pbuh) knew this? Probably theologian?
Answer:
If something is found in more than one place, you mean that is omnipresent. Or, how come Shaitan accommodate in nose or blood. Can you say me how can Shaitan toss the God from one mountain to other? The Dara Singh?
Brother, all prophets are the best theologian of their time. Didn’t Jesus (pbuh) teach his people theology and it included matters related to devil (shaitan). Don’t you believe Jesus (pbuh) to be theologian. May be yes, but you may say he is more than a prophet to you i.e. God, so he could be theologian but not others. Brother, what about Matthew who is explaining really funny thing regarding Shaitan, the Dara Singh. You see these verses below:
Matthew 4: 5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Do you believe this? Or, you are also very selective in your belief (like many other Christians)?
C)Third Hadith:
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, “Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?” I replied, “Allah and His Apostle know better.” He said, “It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: “And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.” (36.30)
Objection:Probably. Muhammad (pbuh), an astronomer (?) speaking all those prostrations and bending and movement to explain one of the established fact? And also explaining the last hour as disobedience of sun and imagining sun itself to be responsible for rising and setting etc.
Answer:
There was a black mark on one of the wall of my house. And it disappeared. One day, my brother came and asked me ‘where did that mark go?’ Do you mean that he wanted to know where did the mark move to. Actually, he meant what happened to the mark or how it disappeared. similarly, prophet (pbuh) wanted to explain regarding how does the sun set. Then prophet (pbuh) says that everyday sun prostrates to the throne of God and permitted to rise again. Here again word prostration is taken literally as Jesus (pbuh) prostrated before God.
Bible: Matthew 26:39 ‘And he (Jesus) went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]’
i.e. typical physical way of human prostration. Prostration in Islam doesn’t always mean putting head down on earth. I remember couple of years back when I was bedridden due to accident and could hardly move my limbs, I used to pray lying and even prostrating in the sign only. When a human’s supposed prostration can have different ways what about other things. How does the sun prostrate?, We don’t know but certainly not like us. Prostrate also means to submit to commandment or rules, like rotation of sun and earth on their axis.
( yes, Sun does rotate. click this link. http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970108a.html ).
And Quran does use this word for inanimate things also where it may mean to follow their normal role of rotating (sun), recycling oxygen to atmosphere (trees). e.g.
Quran 22:18 See you not that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees,……
Quran 55:6 And the herbs (or stars) and the trees both prostrate.
So, it could very well mean from this hadith that sun was prostrating by following it’s own normal course and that which is relative to earth (sunrise and sunset) and one day it will not be so and sun will appear from west. So this verse has a beautiful prediction that on that day when sun will rise from west it would be because of abnormality of sun’s rotation and orientation (rather than due to earth, which is mainly responsible for it’s normal course now).
And at last of this hadith, even it is written that this is the explanation of Quran 36:30 ‘And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.’
Don’t you find this amazing, this great discovery of science (that sun also rotates) made only few DECADES ago, mentioned in Quran, 1400 years back. It was really difficult for the people of that time to understand this. And prophet was explaining to them in a simple language which is also a truth and does not contradict if tried to understand in future but you have to understand the beauty of vocabulary before labeling it illogical.
continued…
3. I pray God to give you strength to present this story (in it’s original form, of course with your rebuttal ). I believe readers are matured enough to understand it’s consequences. May God Guide everybody.
4. If it is said “each student has two destinations”, it can also “mean two destinations (as option).” Which is exactly expected here. And it is RELATED TO ULTIMATE DESTINATION, not related to travelling. And with the context, you have to use your brain to choose whether, it means “each student has two destinations” to select as ultimate goal or travel.
If somebody asks me, Do you love your cat? And I say ,”yes, I love her”. Even though I said “I love her”, this expression “I LOVE HER” do smell something different but when taken into right context, it can be understood properly. I think you should relate this explanation in relation to the context of ultimate destination, not your travelling. Probably you are still carrying over. Take enough rest. Come to your senses, then read my comment properly and give appropriate answer (if you can), instead of dragging around, to hide your face.
5. So, till now you understood the meaning of salvation. And regarding test, leading to particular destination (end result of the test), of course involving the mercy of God along with faith and deed. And you also understood meaning of WRITTEN to have Hell or Heaven as end result. Now, you ask a very good and logical question. Why the fate was WRITTEN?.. along with a very childish, illogical and inappropriate comment that God might forget, so He wrote this. We cannot expect anything more than this, from you. You have anthropomorphized God and believe God to be like human being having typical characteristic of Human like eating, sleeping, weeping, forgetting etc, and still God. Brother God of all human being is not like that. He does not eat, sleep, weep, or forget. He is beyond these limitations. And certainly He is not like us. And God knows everything, beyond any doubt. Now coming to your question. Then why did God write everything or why did God made angels, to write many thing about human even when he is in the womb?
Let me elaborate little more regarding word ‘destiny’, which includes many other things along with the destiny related to final fate (topic of discussion for last few articles) i.e. heaven and hell (which I already explained with proof is due to Pre-knowledge of God).
It is regarding God’s plan (logos) in relation to his creation e.g. when to make universe, earth and humans etc. Even happenings regarding Adam and Jesus (pbut)etc. were planned. Events like birth, accidents, death, rain, earthquake etc. And you know, angels are maintaining the different events on permission of God. Human being has been given freewill to act but angels are there to help him and maintain the system and destiny. And all the aspects of destiny whether due to PREDETERMINATION or PRE-KNOWLEDGE of the events, are written. How and what type of pen or paper? Details, we don’t know and it is not even necessary for us to know. Because God Himself said in Quran :.
Quran: 17:85 …And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little.
So, what is the wisdom ‘in writing’?
i. It is easier for the angels to follow and implement the events and details. Even in Quran it is written that Angels have assess to that which is written i.e. Lauh al Mahfuz, but of course according to God’s wish.
Quran 56:79 Which (that Book with Allâh) none can touch but the purified (i.e. the angels).
ii. A person having faith in this, have ease in this life and have a peaceful and meaningful life. We Muslim after meeting disaster believe it to be predestined and having some goodness for us and we don’t bother to think that if I had done this or that ( and many other ‘ifs’ which normally spoil the rest of life ). And we are peaceful even at the moment of tension. As it was planned or predetermined type, we had no way, except to accept this and ask for God’s help for guidance to the way to heaven.
I think you also believe in destiny if you believe in Bible, as mentioned in Jeremiah 1:5, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:11-12 etc.
iii. On the day of judgment, when all the records will be showed written (esp. related to those which we were discussing before i.e. mans deed written due to God’s knowledge), nobody would dissent or disapprove.
And may be many more wisdom (for being written) and Allah knows the best.
6. I have raised many issues most of them not answered even after repeated asking. You escaped silently. And in the end you are lying and alleging me of not seeing them because I have closed muslim mind. This is a plain lie and a cover to hide your face. Now I will redirect you to few of my questions in last few comments to be counterchecked (with comment number) by readers, whose answer I could not see. Can an “open Christian brain” show me the answer of my comments, in your comments with comment number and brief quotation from that place (as I am doing below).
I. Comment 22-10
Jesus wanted to rejuvenate the lost love and tried to renew approach of loving (agape) to others. Is it an enough excuse to break the laws of old testament, even though Jesus himself obeyed them. Only because others like Paul had different opinion. While Jesus himself said he didn’t come to abolish the law. I have given few examples and I want you to be specific to my question why Christians don’t follow these ways of Jesus. Did Jesus said to do so, or Paul or your logic?
“John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.”
Please re-read my comments properly before answering.
II. Comment 17-5-i
When Jesus after giving uninitiated, best of teaching and showing miracles started playing trick to push to Hell and at the same time fearing that if he gives them further opportunity they might get forgiveness and saved. Is it the way, savior of humanity behaves?
“Mark 4: 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND [THEIR] SINS SHOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM.”
III. Comment 22-12-i
Why Jesus didn’t know about fig tree (and even about hour – without assuming and playing with words which I already exposed )?
IV. Comment 22-9-(iii).
My verbatim:
[ Let me repeat what Peter said and how you alleged me for deception by your misinterpretation. “Acts 10: 34Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in EVERY NATION he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. ( KJV) “
I just quoted as it was written. Where did I deceive? If your bible reads contradicting your belief and like deceiving, it is your problem. Don’t blame me. You say, this statement is true but, how? And you explained, “By allowing that man to come to know the true gospel i.e. Jesus, through which he can be saved”. But your claim is false. In the statement, it is written “EVERY NATION”. Did every nation had Jesus to be believed? Or, “every” doesn’t mean “every”, something similar to “one” doesn’t mean “one” but “three” (when comes to God). ]
V. Comment 22-15
You tried to mispresent verses regarding false prophet (to our prophet), while I showed you clearly how it denoted Paul. And also regarding “comforter”, I quoted all the verses in your Bible and answered your question and proved without doubt, it denotes to none other than prophet Mohammad (pbuh). No further comments from you. Means you have no answer or as usual you don’t like to give your answer to muslim people with small brain?
VI. Comm. 25-1-b-i
“Quote me one verse WHERE JESUS IN HIS LIFE (during his mission in this world) told that I came to fulfill the law SO THAT YOU CAN BREAK IT or the very base of salvation theory that ANYONE WHO DOESN’T BELIEVE IN MY DEATH WILL NOT BE SALVATED. Did Jesus forget that or this God of yours, was fearing Jews to convey his very mission on this earth (according to you)? And Paul had to tell all these things to people that also in contradicting way. It is amazing that you people allege our beloved prophet (Jesus) of not doing his duty of conveying the new theory of salvation. ”
VII. Comm19-5-ii
[ Brother, this is “the son of man” not “a son of man” or “man” i.e. general human being. The son of man has been used in Bible in multiple places, even in old testament to indicate Jesus and has been differentiated from normal human being. e.g in old testament,
“Job 25: 4 How then can man be righteous before God? How can he who is born of woman be clean? 5 Behold, even the moon is not bright and the stars are not clean in his sight; 6 how much less MAN, who is a maggot, and THE SON OF MAN, who is a worm!”
You can clearly see a general “man” is different from “the son of man” i.e. Jesus.
I think it would clear your misunderstanding. You can’t fool everybody with your deception. It indicates Jesus only and now, ask your guru again regarding helpless Jesus of “Psalm 146 :3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in The Son Of Man, in whom [there is] no help”. ]
VIII. Comment 32-12
“Luke 14: 26 “If any one comes to me and does not HATE his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.” RSV
What do you mean by HATE here…?
IX. Comment 19-8
You said Jesus didn’t support sacrifice.
Then, Mary did so on birth of Jesus ( Luke 2:24). And, also Jesus is again abolishing the law and this time even Paul is not supporting him (Acts 21:23-26).
X. Comment 17-5-ii
Is it not drama, that the God, who is ETERNAL and can never have ending, will have temporary apparent death to show that He loved them that is why He is dying for the people (by changing his form i.e. another disguise and cheating)..?
Why don’t you start answering to at least these few questions which I raised before. Then I will quote you the other questions which you escaped silently. You may take help of Mr. Sam. I want a clear answer, not abuse for muslim brain or community or quotation of few more hadiths (? funny). I would love to answer all your questions but first of all you clear your backlog.
You made me write a lot (Alhamdulillah, I tried very brief and clear, remained stuck to the topic)
I think, you should learn to listen and respect others. Give some effort to your gray matter and try to see the thing, with open eye and come out of illusion.
Holy Bible: Proverbs 12:15
“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man is he who listens to counsel.”
Holy Quran Ch 18: 103-105.
… “Shall We tell you the greatest losers in respect of (their) deeds? . “Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they thought that they were acquiring good by their deeds! . “They are those who deny the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of their Lord and the Meeting with Him (in the Hereafter). So their works are in vain, and on the Day of Resurrection, We shall not give them any weight.
May God guide you and me to the Truth.
Comforter.
continued…
3. I pray God to give you strength to present this story (in it’s original form, of course with your rebuttal ). I believe readers are matured enough to understand it’s consequences. May God Guide everybody.
4. If it is said “each student has two destinations”, it can also “mean two destinations (as option).” Which is exactly expected here. And it is RELATED TO ULTIMATE DESTINATION, not related to travelling. And with the context, you have to use your brain to choose whether, it means “each student has two destinations” to select as ultimate goal or travel.
If somebody asks me, Do you love your cat? And I say ,”yes, I love her”. Even though I said “I love her”, this expression “I LOVE HER” do smell something different but when taken into right context, it can be understood properly. I think you should relate this explanation in relation to the context of ultimate destination, not your travelling. Probably you are still carrying over. Take enough rest. Come to your senses, then read my comment properly and give appropriate answer (if you can), instead of dragging around, to hide your face.
5. So, till now you understood the meaning of salvation. And regarding test, leading to particular destination (end result of the test), of course involving the mercy of God along with faith and deed. And you also understood meaning of WRITTEN to have Hell or Heaven as end result. Now, you ask a very good and logical question. Why the fate was WRITTEN?.. along with a very childish, illogical and inappropriate comment that God might forget, so He wrote this. We cannot expect anything more than this, from you. You have anthropomorphized God and believe God to be like human being having typical characteristic of Human like eating, sleeping, weeping, forgetting etc, and still God. Brother God of all human being is not like that. He does not eat, sleep, weep, or forget. He is beyond these limitations. And certainly He is not like us. And God knows everything, beyond any doubt. Now coming to your question. Then why did God write everything or why did God made angels, to write many thing about human even when he is in the womb?
Let me elaborate little more regarding word ‘destiny’, which includes many other things along with the destiny related to final fate (topic of discussion for last few articles) i.e. heaven and hell (which I already explained with proof is due to Pre-knowledge of God).
It is regarding God’s plan (logos) in relation to his creation e.g. when to make universe, earth and humans etc. Even happenings regarding Adam and Jesus (pbut)etc. were planned. Events like birth, accidents, death, rain, earthquake etc. And you know, angels are maintaining the different events on permission of God. Human being has been given freewill to act but angels are there to help him and maintain the system and destiny. And all the aspects of destiny whether due to PREDETERMINATION or PRE-KNOWLEDGE of the events, are written. How and what type of pen or paper? Details, we don’t know and it is not even necessary for us to know. Because God Himself said in Quran :.
Quran: 17:85 …And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little.
So, what is the wisdom ‘in writing’?
i. It is easier for the angels to follow and implement the events and details. Even in Quran it is written that Angels have assess to that which is written i.e. Lauh al Mahfuz, but of course according to God’s wish.
Quran 56:79 Which (that Book with Allâh) none can touch but the purified (i.e. the angels).
ii. A person having faith in this, have ease in this life and have a peaceful and meaningful life. We Muslim after meeting disaster believe it to be predestined and having some goodness for us and we don’t bother to think that if I had done this or that ( and many other ‘ifs’ which normally spoil the rest of life ). And we are peaceful even at the moment of tension. As it was planned or predetermined type, we had no way, except to accept this and ask for God’s help for guidance to the way to heaven.
I think you also believe in destiny if you believe in Bible, as mentioned in Jeremiah 1:5, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:11-12 etc.
iii. On the day of judgment, when all the records will be showed written (esp. related to those which we were discussing before i.e. mans deed written due to God’s knowledge), nobody would dissent or disapprove.
And may be many more wisdom (for being written) and Allah knows the best.
6. I have raised many issues most of them not answered even after repeated asking. You escaped silently. And in the end you are lying and alleging me of not seeing them because I have closed muslim mind. This is a plain lie and a cover to hide your face. Now I will redirect you to few of my questions in last few comments to be counterchecked (with comment number) by readers, whose answer I could not see. Can an “open Christian brain” show me the answer of my comments, in your comments with comment number and brief quotation from that place (as I am doing below).
I. Comment 22-10
Jesus wanted to rejuvenate the lost love and tried to renew approach of loving (agape) to others. Is it an enough excuse to break the laws of old testament, even though Jesus himself obeyed them. Only because others like Paul had different opinion. While Jesus himself said he didn’t come to abolish the law. I have given few examples and I want you to be specific to my question why Christians don’t follow these ways of Jesus. Did Jesus said to do so, or Paul or your logic?
“John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.”
Please re-read my comments properly before answering.
II. Comment 17-5-i
When Jesus after giving uninitiated, best of teaching and showing miracles started playing trick to push to Hell and at the same time fearing that if he gives them further opportunity they might get forgiveness and saved. Is it the way, savior of humanity behaves?
“Mark 4: 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND [THEIR] SINS SHOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM.”
III. Comment 22-12-i
Why Jesus didn’t know about fig tree (and even about hour – without assuming and playing with words which I already exposed )?
IV. Comment 22-9-(iii).
My verbatim:
[ Let me repeat what Peter said and how you alleged me for deception by your misinterpretation. “Acts 10: 34Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in EVERY NATION he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. ( KJV) “
I just quoted as it was written. Where did I deceive? If your bible reads contradicting your belief and like deceiving, it is your problem. Don’t blame me. You say, this statement is true but, how? And you explained, “By allowing that man to come to know the true gospel i.e. Jesus, through which he can be saved”. But your claim is false. In the statement, it is written “EVERY NATION”. Did every nation had Jesus to be believed? Or, “every” doesn’t mean “every”, something similar to “one” doesn’t mean “one” but “three” (when comes to God). ]
V. Comment 22-15
You tried to mispresent verses regarding false prophet (to our prophet), while I showed you clearly how it denoted Paul. And also regarding “comforter”, I quoted all the verses in your Bible and answered your question and proved without doubt, it denotes to none other than prophet Mohammad (pbuh). No further comments from you. Means you have no answer or as usual you don’t like to give your answer to muslim people with small brain?
VI. Comm. 25-1-b-i
“Quote me one verse WHERE JESUS IN HIS LIFE (during his mission in this world) told that I came to fulfill the law SO THAT YOU CAN BREAK IT or the very base of salvation theory that ANYONE WHO DOESN’T BELIEVE IN MY DEATH WILL NOT BE SALVATED. Did Jesus forget that or this God of yours, was fearing Jews to convey his very mission on this earth (according to you)? And Paul had to tell all these things to people that also in contradicting way. It is amazing that you people allege our beloved prophet (Jesus) of not doing his duty of conveying the new theory of salvation. ”
VII. Comm19-5-ii
[ Brother, this is “the son of man” not “a son of man” or “man” i.e. general human being. The son of man has been used in Bible in multiple places, even in old testament to indicate Jesus and has been differentiated from normal human being. e.g in old testament,
“Job 25: 4 How then can man be righteous before God? How can he who is born of woman be clean? 5 Behold, even the moon is not bright and the stars are not clean in his sight; 6 how much less MAN, who is a maggot, and THE SON OF MAN, who is a worm!”
You can clearly see a general “man” is different from “the son of man” i.e. Jesus.
I think it would clear your misunderstanding. You can’t fool everybody with your deception. It indicates Jesus only and now, ask your guru again regarding helpless Jesus of “Psalm 146 :3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in The Son Of Man, in whom [there is] no help”. ]
VIII. Comment 32-12
“Luke 14: 26 “If any one comes to me and does not HATE his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.” RSV
What do you mean by HATE here…?
IX. Comment 19-8
You said Jesus didn’t support sacrifice.
Then, Mary did so on birth of Jesus ( Luke 2:24). And, also Jesus is again abolishing the law and this time even Paul is not supporting him (Acts 21:23-26).
X. Comment 17-5-ii
Is it not drama, that the God, who is ETERNAL and can never have ending, will have temporary apparent death to show that He loved them that is why He is dying for the people (by changing his form i.e. another disguise and cheating)..?
Why don’t you start answering to at least these few questions which I raised before. Then I will quote you the other questions which you escaped silently. You may take help of Mr. Sam. I want a clear answer, not abuse for muslim brain or community or quotation of few more hadiths (? funny). I would love to answer all your questions but first of all you clear your backlog.
You made me write a lot (Alhamdulillah, I tried very brief and clear, remained stuck to the topic)
I think, you should learn to listen and respect others. Give some effort to your gray matter and try to see the thing, with open eye and come out of illusion.
Holy Bible: Proverbs 12:15
“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man is he who listens to counsel.”
Holy Quran Ch 18: 103-105.
… “Shall We tell you the greatest losers in respect of (their) deeds? . “Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they thought that they were acquiring good by their deeds! . “They are those who deny the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of their Lord and the Meeting with Him (in the Hereafter). So their works are in vain, and on the Day of Resurrection, We shall not give them any weight.
May God guide you and me to the Truth.
Comforter.
herewith I am re-sending my comment on article 35 (second part), which you didnot publish till now (apprx. a week now). I have corrected few of my typing mistakes this time. Can I know the reason, why second part is taking so long from getting published. I want specific comment.
continued…
3. I pray God to give you strength to present this story (in it’s original form, of course with your rebuttal ). I believe readers are matured enough to understand it’s consequences. May God Guide everybody.
4. If it is said “each student has two destinations”, it can also “mean two destinations (as option).” Which is exactly expected here. And it is RELATED TO ULTIMATE DESTINATION, not related to travelling. And with the context, you have to use your brain to choose whether, it means “each student has two destinations” to select as ultimate goal or travel.
If somebody asks me, Do you love your cat? And I say ,”yes, I love her”. Even though I said “I love her”, this expression i.e. “I LOVE HER” do smell something different, but when taken into right context, it can be understood properly. I think, you should relate this explanation in relation to the context of ultimate destination, not your travelling. Probably you are still carrying over. Take enough rest. Come to your senses, then read my comment properly and give appropriate answer (if you can), instead of dragging around, to hide your face.
5. So, till now you understood the meaning of salvation. And regarding test, leading to particular destination (end result of the test), of course involving the mercy of God along with faith and deed. And you also understood meaning of WRITTEN to have Hell or Heaven as end result. Now, you ask a very good and logical question. Why the fate was WRITTEN?.. along with a very childish, illogical and inappropriate comment that God might forget, so He wrote this. We cannot expect anything more than this, from you. You have anthropomorphized God and believe God to be like human being having typical characteristic of human like eating, sleeping, weeping, forgetting etc, and still God. Brother God of all human being is not like that. He does not eat, sleep, weep, or forget. He is beyond these limitations. And certainly He is not like us. And God knows everything, beyond any doubt. Now coming to your question. Then why did God write everything or why did God made angels, to write many things about human even when he is in the womb?
Let me elaborate little more regarding word ‘destiny’, which includes many other things along with the destiny related to final fate (topic of discussion for last few articles) i.e. heaven and hell (which I already explained with proof is due to Pre-knowledge of God).
It is regarding God’s plan (logos) in relation to his creation e.g. when and how to make universe, earth and humans etc. Even happenings regarding Adam and Jesus (pbut)etc. were planned. Events like birth, accidents, death, rain, earthquake etc. And you know, angels are maintaining the different events on permission of God. Human being has been given freewill to act but angels are there to help him and maintain the system and destiny. And all the aspects of destiny whether due to PREDETERMINATION or PRE-KNOWLEDGE of the events, are written. How and what type of pen or paper? Details, we don’t know and it is not even necessary for us to know. Because God Himself said in Quran :.
Quran: 17:85 …And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little.
So, what is the wisdom ‘in writing’?
i. It is easier for the angels to follow and implement the events and details. Even in Quran it is written that Angels have assess to that which is written i.e. Lauh al Mahfuz, but of course according to God’s wish.
Quran 56:79 Which (that Book with Allâh) none can touch but the purified (i.e. the angels).
ii. A person having faith in this (destiny), have ease in this life and have a peaceful and meaningful life. We Muslim after meeting disaster believe it to be predestined and having some goodness for us and we don’t bother to think that if I had done this or that ( and many other ‘ifs’ which normally spoil the rest of life ). And we are peaceful even at the moment of tension. As it was planned or predetermined type, we had no way, except to accept this and ask for God’s help for guidance to the way to heaven.
I think you also believe in destiny, if you believe in Bible, as mentioned in Jeremiah 1:5, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:11-12 etc.
iii. On the day of judgment, when all the records will be showed written (esp. related to those which we were discussing before i.e. mans deed written due to God’s knowledge), nobody would dissent or disapprove.
And may be many more wisdom (for being written) and Allah knows the best.
6. I have raised many issues most of them not answered even after repeated asking. You escaped silently. And in the end you are lying and alleging me of not seeing them because I have closed muslim mind. This is a plain lie and a cover to hide your face. Now I will redirect you to few of my questions in last few comments to be counterchecked (with comment number) by readers, whose answer I could not see. Can an “open Christian brain” show me the answer of my comments, in your comments with comment number and brief quotation from that place (as I am doing below).
I. Comment 22-10
Jesus wanted to rejuvenate the lost love and tried to renew approach of loving (agape) to others. Is it an enough excuse to break the laws of old testament, even though Jesus himself obeyed them. Only because others like Paul had different opinion. While Jesus himself said he didn’t come to abolish the law. I have given few examples and I want you to be specific to my question why Christians don’t follow these ways of Jesus. Did Jesus said to do so, or Paul or your logic?
“John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.”
Please re-read my comments properly before answering.
II. Comment 17-5-i
According to you, Jesus after giving uninitiated, best of teaching and showing miracles started playing trick to push to Hell and at the same time fearing that if he gives them further opportunity they might get forgiveness and saved. Is it the way, savior of humanity behaves?
“Mark 4: 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND [THEIR] SINS SHOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM.”
III. Comment 22-12-i
Why Jesus didn’t know about fig tree (and even about hour – without assuming and playing with words which I already exposed )?
IV. Comment 22-9-(iii).
My verbatim:
[ Let me repeat what Peter said and how you alleged me for deception by your misinterpretation. “Acts 10: 34Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in EVERY NATION he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. ( KJV) “
I just quoted as it was written. Where did I deceive? If your bible reads contradicting your belief and like deceiving, it is your problem. Don’t blame me. You say, this statement is true but, how? And you explained, “By allowing that man to come to know the true gospel i.e. Jesus, through which he can be saved”. But your claim is false. In the statement, it is written “EVERY NATION”. Did every nation had Jesus to be believed? Or, “every” doesn’t mean “every”, something similar to “one” doesn’t mean “one” but “three” (when comes to God). ]
V. Comment 22-15
You tried to mispresent verses regarding false prophet (to our prophet), while I showed you clearly how it denoted Paul. And also regarding “comforter”, I quoted all the verses in your Bible and answered your question and proved without doubt, it denotes to none other than prophet Mohammad (pbuh). No further comments from you. Means you have no answer or as usual you don’t like to give your answer to muslim people with small brain?
VI. Comm. 25-1-b-i
“Quote me one verse WHERE JESUS IN HIS LIFE (during his mission in this world) told that I came to fulfill the law SO THAT YOU CAN BREAK IT or the very base of salvation theory that ANYONE WHO DOESN’T BELIEVE IN MY DEATH WILL NOT BE SALVATED. Did Jesus forget that or this God of yours, was fearing Jews to convey his very mission on this earth (according to you)? And Paul had to tell all these things to people that also in contradicting way. It is amazing that you people allege our beloved prophet (Jesus) of not doing his duty of conveying the new theory of salvation. ”
VII. Comm19-5-ii
[ Brother, this is “the son of man” not “a son of man” or “man” i.e. general human being. The son of man has been used in Bible in multiple places, even in old testament to indicate Jesus and has been differentiated from normal human being. e.g. in old testament,
“Job 25: 4 How then can man be righteous before God? How can he who is born of woman be clean? 5 Behold, even the moon is not bright and the stars are not clean in his sight; 6 how much less MAN, who is a maggot, and THE SON OF MAN, who is a worm!”
You can clearly see a general “man” is different from “the son of man” i.e. Jesus.
I think it would clear your misunderstanding. You can’t fool everybody with your deception. It indicates Jesus only and now, ask your guru again regarding helpless Jesus of “Psalm 146 :3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in The Son Of Man, in whom [there is] no help”. ]
VIII. Comment 32-12
“Luke 14: 26 “If any one comes to me and does not HATE his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.” RSV
What do you mean by HATE here…?
IX. Comment 19-8
You said Jesus didn’t support sacrifice.
Then, Mary did so on birth of Jesus ( Luke 2:24). And, also Jesus is again abolishing the law and this time even Paul is not supporting him (Acts 21:23-26).
X. Comment 17-5-ii
Is it not drama, that the God, who is ETERNAL and can never have ending, will have temporary apparent death to show that He loved them that is why He is dying for the people (by changing his form i.e. another disguise and cheating)..?
Why don’t you start answering to at least these few questions which I raised before. Then I will quote you the other questions which you escaped silently. You may take help of Mr. Sam. I want a clear answer, not abuse for muslim brain or community or quotation of few more hadiths (? funny). I would love to answer all your questions but first of all you clear your backlog.
You made me write a lot (Alhamdulillah, I tried to be very brief and clear, remained stuck to the topic) .
I think, you should learn to listen and respect others. Give some effort to your gray matter and try to see the thing, with open eye and come out of illusion.
Holy Bible: Proverbs 12:15
“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man is he who listens to counsel.”
Holy Quran Ch 18: 103-105.
… “Shall We tell you the greatest losers in respect of (their) deeds? . “Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they thought that they were acquiring good by their deeds! . “They are those who deny the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of their Lord and the Meeting with Him (in the Hereafter). So their works are in vain, and on the Day of Resurrection, We shall not give them any weight.
May God guide you and me to the Truth.
Comforter.
Dear friend Muslim Comforter,
Thanks for engaging me in this debate. I am finding it very helpful to write responses to your postings, except for the fact that I am hard pressed for time sometimes. Your postings display the typical Muslim ‘rationality’ and ‘wisdom.’ Whenever topics get tougher you resort to some anti-Christian websites for help. This time you took shelter in Osama Abdullah’s website along with ‘Islamic Awareness’. Apart from the fact that most of his website propagates garbage, in my opinion, by far he can be the best personification of Islamic ‘rationality’ and ‘wisdom.’ Therefore, your choice of help is the best one you have opted so far. I wish you had more original thinking than just ‘copy and paste’ from Osama’s and Islamic Awareness websites. In any case, let us see how best those websites come in aid to your Islamic beliefs and convictions.
You wrote:
“Brother, thanks again for admitting that SUCH stories can only be written by STUPIDS (More than 40 authors, right?) and used by STUPIDS (!).”
My answer:
It is more than entertaining to see how you are taking pride in your own STUPID storyJ, that shows us Muslim ‘intelligence’ in fabricating stupid stories and believing them! Your own words display your admission of the truth: “thanks again for admitting that SUCH stories can only be written by STUPIDS” No problem, this is exactly what I have been waiting to hear from you and so are the readers!! Unfortunately you failed to admit this truth in the beginning itself. If you are looking for STUPID stories, like Hadith stories, with Christians you won’t find them. So, how to solve this problem? Being a ‘wise’ Muslim, you with the help of another ‘wise’ Muslims by the name ‘Fais’ produced a story that reflects Muslim ‘wisdom’ in trying to malign Christian truth. But the haunting reality came back and we all agree now that such stories can be written, believed and quoted by STUPIDS only. (Readers, please note here that in his effort Muslim comforter exposed so clearly his and his fellow Muslim’s wickedness. This is typical of Muslim defenders!)
One more thing, STUPID stories, I mean Hadith stories, are authored by hundreds if not thousands of ‘wise’ people of Islam! These are proudly used and followed by the other STUPIDS!! As far as the Quran is concerned four ‘wise’ Muslims can be credited for its production—Muhammad, Zaid, Uthman and al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf.
You wrote:
“One hadith in Bukhari seems to tell that the Prophet (pbuh) was contemplating suicide in the beginning of revelation, when it stopped for some time (nouzbillah). We Muslim consider it blasphemy if taken in the literal sense. No scholar & even layman accept this to be a fact even though it is written in Bukhari. Why? Because it is against the prophet’s basic teaching and he predicted hell for the person who commits suicide. There are many ways to explain this hadith and none showing this literal meaning. For details, you consult the scholar or at least the student of Islamic studies (Not the Deviants). In case, it is your next question tell me. Inshallah I’ll try to give you the fact. And to no surprise, the suicide rate In Saudi Arabia is least in the world, not amazing if it is 90:1 between Israel and Saudi Arabia.”
My answer:
We will look into these facts later. Some of the historic facts of Islam are so repulsive and revealing. How to cover those facts? The ‘wise’ Islamic scholars decide to tell the gullible followers they are ‘unacceptable.’ STUPIDS jump to believe all that. Even if Muhammad says something horrible about himself how do you take it? Oh, we Muslims consider it blasphemy and that’s why either it is wrong or it has some other ‘hidden’ meaning. Wow! Hats off!! By the way, the suicide rate in Saudi Arabia is least in the world. You know the reason? State control to the information. How about the ‘domestic violence’ or ‘human-rights violations’ in Saudi Arabia comparing to other countries? By the way, Islam (the last beast) stands atop with regard to the religious suicide rates in the WHOLE WOLRD. How do you like that? In any case, we will get back to these topics at some other time, Lord willing. Don’t try to deviate from the topics at hand.
You wrote:
“Answer: For a layman of present time it may seem strange, which you are utilizing. Contemporary layman needs logic or science to strengthen their imaan. That is why Islam is fulfilling their desire and strengthening their faith by proving the things with logic and tests. You don’t need supernatural logic to swallow these facts [as it is to 1+1+1=1 (not 3) ]. That is one of the reason peoples are coming to Islam in amazing proportion. And another reason is people like, you who are projecting things in doubtful manner to win the candidate (by hook or crook). And it is giving muslims the opportunity to clear the facts with proof and taking the benefit of being on Truth.
So, let me clear facts regarding housefly.”
My answer:
Let’s see whether you have cleared anything at all here with the help of Islamic Goliath Osama. I agree, you (Muslims) can only understand 1+1+1=3, but cannot understand 1x1x1=1. Further more, Infinity + Infinity + Infinity = Infinity is completely beyond Muslims’ grasp! How can I expect Islam to offer anything more than 1+1+1=3? We can talk about that only after you ‘grow up,’ until that time I can’t help you. By the way, is that one of the reason why peoples are coming to Islam in amazing proportion? Wow that is impressive! How about 6 million Muslims leaving Islam every year?
The Quran, the so-called Allah’s words, is a book with no ‘context’ and no meaningful transition from one subject to another, and no chronological order to understand what is revealed first, second, third and so on so forth. In order to bring some meaning to it or give some sense to its text Muslim ‘wise’ people came up with ‘wise’ stories of Hadiths. So, without these ‘wise’ hadiths Muslims don’t even know the meaning of the Quran or the practices of Islam. For example, just by looking into the Quran a Muslim cannot know how many times he/she needs to do namaz or how to do that. For that he/she inevitably needs to go to the ‘wise’ stories of Hadith. These stories number more than million! Bukhari who examined around 700,000 of these ‘wise’ stories declared and 90% of them are spurious (this should give the readers a significant clue to understand as to how truthful are Muslims in talking about their ‘prophet,’ their god and their religion!). Even within the 10% of the so-called ‘Sahi’ stories there are contradictions and irrational accounts. Hence they too offer a shaky ground to Muslims about their book and faith. In reality, the average Muslim doesn’t even look to the Quran for the belief and practice of his religion, rather he would turn to hadiths for that purpose. Thus it is irrefutable to say that the Hadith stories form (even though they are stupid stories at best) the most important part of a Muslim’s religious life. Without these stories the Quran (the so-called Allah’s words) is rendered meaningless for most part and impossible to follow in much of its instructions. Muslim websites admit the fact that, “it is impossible to understand the Qur’an without reference to the Hadith.”
Therefore, for Muslims the two fundamental sources of Islam are the Qur’an and Sunna (from Hadith). If these two sources don’t stand on their own, but one completely depends on the other, particularly the Quran (the so-called Allah’s words) on the Hadith, one can imagine the significance and indispensability of the Hadith. What’s more, without the Hadith Islam cannot even survive in its belief and practice, while it can very well survive even if there is no Quran! Such is the plight of the Quranic Allah’s words as opposed to Hadith Muhammad’s Sunna!! Now imagine, if the Hadith stories, which are of such importance, are not fully reliable or to some extent foolish or stupid and error prone then how great the ‘meaning’ and the ‘practice’ of the so-called last religion Islam should be?
Muslims’ arguments go something like this:
Muslim: Quran is perfect without changes and errors
Christian: I read the Quran and hadiths. As far as I can say, there are changes in the text and errors (grammatical, logical, scientific and historical) in the message of the Quran. This can be ascertained from the text of the Quran itself and also form the hadiths.
Muslim: That’s false. It is Christians’ hatred toward Islam.
Christian: How do you know there are no errors and changes in the Quran?
Muslims: If only you understand the science of hadiths and study hadiths properly then you can understand the ‘context’ and ‘meaning’ of the Quranic verses which can easily clear those errors.
Christian: So hadiths give us the real meaning and context of the Quran.
Muslims: Yes, of course
Christian: Then hadiths should be more reliable than the Quran.
Muslim: Well, Quran is the words of Allah and Hadiths are the word of Muhammad. Therefore, Quran is error free, but Hadiths are error prone.
Christian: According to your presentation the error free quality of the Quran is established by the error prone hadiths. However, the hadiths themselves don’t have that quality. How can anybody buy what the error prone hadiths establish about the Quran?
Muslims: That is the greatness of Islam which you Christians cannot even understand.
Christian: …..???????! Perhaps this is called Islamic ‘rationality’ and ‘wisdom!’
Now let’s look to Muhammad’s house fly advice…
First, let’s recall what Muhammad said according to the Hadith:
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said “If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease.”
Points worth noting in the above ‘wise’ advice of Muhammad to his followers:
i. The fly that falls into Muslims’ drink should be dipped completely (Readers, just think of the commonsense of any ordinary person, even today, who says the drink in which a housefly falls should be thrown out as opposed to the ‘wisdom’ of the prophet of Islam who says otherwise. Muslims follow the latter!)
ii. Fly has two wings. One of them has disease and the other has cure (now it is the responsibility of the ‘wise’ Muslim scientists, who are very good at fabrications and speculations, to do extensive research and come up with their findings about ‘which’ wing of the fly has the disease and which wing of the fly has the ‘antibiotic’!
iii. Muhammad is very meticulous in his explanation: “one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease.” (As far as the disease part in the flies is concerned any one with commonsense can guess as the flies are mostly associated with dirty and disgusting things, but ‘cure’ for the disease in the flies is really remarkable and worth looking into it!)
iv. Fly does have the body, particularly feet. The great Islamic pathologist has forgotten to mention anything about them which cannot be ignored in the light of the following facts.
v. According to Muhammad, the amount of disease or its effect a fly caries is equal or balanced with the amount of the cure the same fly caries. (Readers, please remember this point as it is very important to see how the research and commonsense shed light on this)
a) Facts about the house fly:
i. http://www.insectsaway.com/default.aspx?id=5983
“Although it does not bite, the list of diseases the common house fly carries and spreads include many of the worst killers of mankind; Typhoid, Cholera, Gangrene, Tuberculosis, Gonorrhea, Bubonic Plague, Leprosy, Diptheria, Scarlet Fever, Amoebic Dysentery, Poliomyelitis, and many others. Some flies prefer the eye and transfer the microbes of Pink Eye, Conjunctivitis, and Trachoma from diseased eyes to your healthy eyes. Others spread Yaws, a skin disease, when they feed on your cuts and sores.”
“Each fly may carry as many as six million bacteria on it’s FEET.”
“There are perhaps 200 species of these domesticated flies. The most dangerous of these is the common house fly that persistently annoys, plagues, and diseases mankind.”
ii. http://www.iguflytrap.co.nz/reports.html
“Transmission of pathogens With flies the transmission of pathogenic micro-organisms is inevitable, every fly being able to carry up to five million germs including the pathogens of such serious diseases as typhoid, cholera, dysentery, polio, pneumonia and foot and mouth disease. On a suitable substratum germs multiply very rapidly. Thus, with the aid of a culture medium (blood agar), it can very easily be demonstrated that a housefly, for example, leaves behind its own bacterial trail.
The manner in which a housefly goes about its food intake promotes the TRANSMISSION of micro-organisms in several ways:
1. By WALKING around on the surface of the food “facultatively tactile” contamination takes place.
2. Houseflies, in common with other species of fly having a proboscis, cannot take nourishment in the form of solids. The proboscis SECRETES DIGESTIVE FLUIDS onto the food so as provide liquefaction and accomplish partial extracorporeal digestion. The resultant solution is then sucked in by dabbing.
Virtually simultaneously a dropping of faeces is excreted, releasing germs from the fly’s INTESTINES. This mode of transmission is termed “facultative excretory.” If a foodstuff is moist and contains protein, it is also used as an egg depositary. A housefly lays a total of around 2’000 eggs. Given a suitable temperature the maggots hatch out within a matter of hours.”
From the above two websites on flies let us note a couple of important points here:
i. Flies carry germs on their feet i.e. body.
ii. Flies also carry germs in their inner body parts
(Muslims such as Muslim Comforter and Osama Abdullah have something to support Muhammad’s ‘wise’ fly advice. Let us see how in their zeal they expose their ignorance and foolishness)
b) Research about the fly resistance to the effect of the germs it carries:
Since resistance to diseases is found virtually in every living thing, it is commonsensical to note that the flies that carry germs should have some defensive system to its own protection from the germs. Therefore they looked in there and came up with the following according to one website:
Here is what the scientists say…
“The SURFACE OF FLIES (it does not say including wings) is the last place you would expect to find antibiotics, yet that is exactly where a team of Australian researchers is concentrating their efforts.”
“The antibiotic material is EXTRACTED BY DROWNING THE FLIES IN ETHANOL, then running the mixture through a filter to obtain the crude extract.”
“Working on the theory that flies must have remarkable antimicrobial defences to survive rotting dung, meat and fruit, the team at the Department of Biological Sciences, Macquarie University, set out to identify those antibacterial properties manifesting at different stages of a fly’s development.”
Now points of consideration:
i. Antibiotics are present on the surface of the flies i.e. the body pats of the fly, particularly feet. That is the place where germs would come in contact with the fly, hence the presence of the antibiotics.
ii. The antibiotic material can be extracted by drowning the ‘flies’ (not fly) in ‘ethanol’ (not in water). That means in order to get some significant amount of antibiotics even to study we need several flies, perhaps a number of them.
iii. Each fly can carry millions of bacteria that are deadly for human life. Each fly has antibiotic material on its body (not on one of its wings) to protect itself from the bacteria it carries. But the ‘faithful’ Muslim apologists speculate according to the ‘wise’ sayings of Muhammad that the amount of ‘antibiotic material’ that is present on the body of one fly can heal/protect the Muslims from the effect of the bacteria that is carried by the same one fly. Isn’t it amazing and entertaining!
In the end what did the research prove about Muhammad’s saying?
i. Muhammad is wrong in saying that one of the wings has disease and the other has cure for the disease. In reality, the research doesn’t say anything about the ‘wings,’ let alone making any statement to the effect that one wing carries disease and another carries cure!
ii. Muhammad is also wrong in implying in his saying that by dipping a fly into a drink the cure would be washed into the drink. (Imagine every time a fly is drenched in the rain if it looses its antibiotic material what could the bacteria on its sticky feet do to it)
iii. Muhammad is grossly wrong in saying that the disease carried by one fly can protect/heal a person (who drinks) the disease it caries.
But for Osama and M Comforter this tells somehow the opposite story! So much for their Islamic ‘intelligence.’ They are optimistic and convinced that Muhammad got this ‘logical’ and ‘scientific’ truth 1400 years ago!
(What’s more, even Osama admits the stupidity of the hadith, “I mean, if the fly is carrying malaria or some other disease on its body, then certainly dipping the fly in the drink or food will bring the disease to it. And if we do this with multiple or many infested flies, then we will have a big health problem.”)
You wrote:
“Hope you got the point. Now, would you please tell me about scientific and logical mistakes done by your God (Jesus, as you believe). And tell me how funny they are? Have a glimpse.
i. Matthew 13:31-32 ” Another parable he put before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of MUSTARD SEED which a man took and sowed in his field; IT IS THE SMALLEST OF ALL SEEDS, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.”
The mustard seed is not the smallest of all seeds. Others, such as the orchid seed, are smaller.”
My answer:
Not only I but all the readers got the point. Now I will explain to you, if you can understand, the supposed scientific and logical mistakes done by Jesus, my Lord and God before whom every knee shall bow. Unfortunately, they are funny to those who blindly believe seventh century Arab poet’s scientific accuracy, but for others who think with their commonsense they are not. Let’s see…
Matthew 13:31-32 ” Another parable he put before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of MUSTARD SEED which A MAN TOOK AND SOWED IN HIS FIELD; IT IS THE SMALLEST OF ALL SEEDS, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.”
The problem the ‘wise’ Muslim mind sees here in the above verses: “The mustard seed is not the smallest of all seeds. Others, such as the orchid seed, are smaller.” (Looks like Osama delivered the mightiest blow on Christians!)
Understanding the problem:
1. Jesus is not giving an advice, but explaining a truth.
2. The context in which he was speaking the truth of the kingdom of God was the first century Palestine peasants’ community.
3. He is NOT comparing the mustard seed with the rest of the seeds in the WORLD!
4. He is comparing the mustard seed with the rest of the seeds a Palestine farmer would use in his farm (v.31: “A MAN TOOK AND SOWED IN HIS FIELD”).
Where is the scientific or logical problem? In the minds of Osama and M Comforter the ‘wise’ Muslims. How to help them? If the effect of Islam is taken out of their minds only then they can understand this.
You wrote:
“Mark 16:18 “they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
Christians so bothered by the falsehood of this verse due to the many fatalities they suffered because of it, that the Bible theologians insist on denying these verses by saying: “The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.”
Here M Comforter (Osama the ‘wise’ Muslim) forgot to mention what scientific or logical error can be found here. Let’s see the verses in context:
“And He (Jesus) said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation, He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. And these sings will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it shall not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” (Mark 16:17-18)
1. Jesus is saying the above ‘sings’ (wonders) are given to the people who are saved by believing the ‘gospel’ that is being preached in Jesus’ name.
2. These ‘sings’ are given by God and are therefore do not fall within the purview of science or logic. (Obvioiusly Biblical God is able to furnish such powers to whom He choses, but Quranic Allah is incapable of doing such a thing)
3. All these above ‘sings’ not necessarily be seen in just one person.
4. Jesus did not say, “these sings should accompany every single one who believes”
5. Personally, I know many people who have one or the other of the above sings that Jesus spoke about.
Osama vents his venom: Christians so bothered by the falsehood of this verse due to the many fatalities they suffered because of it (where is the proof? In one of the hadiths?!) that the Bible theologians (you mean like STUPID hadith producers?!) insist on denying these verses by saying: “The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.”
1. True Bible scholars (unlike deviant ones) say as a matter of fact, “some of the oldest mss. Do not contain vv.9-20.” They don’t insist on denying them.
2. This is simply stating the fact which is a part of the scholarly approach.
3. Christians don’t believe in destroying ‘conflicting’ mss (like Uthman) in order to produce just one ‘official’ volume and then declare that there is only one error free ‘book of Allah!’
Please don’t beet around the bush. If you don’t have anything to say to the point i.e. about the scientific or logical error, then shut your mouth. The problem with you guys is you don’t even know what theme you are talking about. (You are also reflecting your prophets’ confusion which is so evident in the Quran). Here it is the ‘scientific and logical’ errors you are desperately trying to find in Jesus’ words. Why start a new theme of ‘textual integrity?’ If you are interested I am ready. We can do that later once we are done with the present themes.
Your wrote:
John 12:24 “I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and DIES, it remains only a single seed. But if it DIES, it produces many seeds.”
That is scientifically false. The dead seed does not produce new seeds.
What do you say about God (Jesus) the biologist and theologian. (nouzbillah)
My answer:
1. Where did Jesus say, “The dead seed produce new seeds”? This is what the corrupt mind of Osama fabricated.
2. What is Jesus trying to convey to his hearers here? If only a wheat-seed falls to the ground and does not remain as it is (a single seed), but looses itself as the single seed (dies) in the process of producing life then we can see a new plant.
3. One can see a plant growing out of the ground after a few days of planting a seed in the ground. After the plant comes out, does the original seed still remain intact? No not at all. It is gone or lost its original state that is what the ‘death of a seed’ referring to here!
4. The ‘death of a seed’ here does not mean as Osama (or M Comforter) would have us believed. When Jesus said that the seed ‘dies’ (in the process) it does not necessarily mean the soul or spirit of the seed leaves its body and goes to one of its places (according to hadith one place in heaven and one place in hell!).
5. To understand the above verse one needs to look into the context and relevance. I don’t mean you have to go to some STUPID stories collected by some STUPIDS. Look into the book itself.
6. According to Jesus the ‘death of the seed’ occurs during the process of producing the new plant, but not prior to it.
So, where is the so-called ‘scientific false?’ Perhaps in the minds of ‘wise’ Muslims!
You wrote:
“If something is found in more than one place, you mean that is omnipresent. Or, how come Shaitan accommodate in nose or blood. Can you say me how can Shaitan toss the God from one mountain to other? The Dara Singh?
Brother, all prophets are the best theologian of their time. Didn’t Jesus (pbuh) teach his people theology and it included matters related to devil (shaitan). Don’t you believe Jesus (pbuh) to be theologian. May be yes, but you may say he is more than a prophet to you i.e. God, so he could be theologian but not others. Brother, what about Matthew who is explaining really funny thing regarding Shaitan, the Dara Singh. You see these verses below:
Matthew 4: 5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Do you believe this? Or, you are also very selective in your belief (like many other Christians)?”
My answer:
Omnipresent means present everywhere at all times. This is the quality of God. Interestingly Muhammad could not include this in his Quran. Why? Because, he is a mere human being. Ironically, H Muhammad gave this quality to Shaitan, which is only a created being and cannot be in many different places at the same time. Simple logic: Any created being cannot be present in two different places at the same time. H Muhammad’s logic: Shaitan is present in the noses of billions of people at the same time! Faithful Muslims believe this ‘wise’ saying and go washing noses every morning! Now Muslims who use common sense and feel ashamed of this STUPIDITY come up with ‘Arabic language’ gymnastics by saying ‘nose’ means something, ‘sleeping’ means another thing (then ‘washing’ should mean anything else). These are some of the STUPID stories that shape the ‘last’ and ‘greatest’ religion called Islam.
Regarding the Bible passage you quoted: I believe the whole account of Matthew 4:5-10 without a doubt. You don’t believe that, right? Why? Did you see some scientific or logical problem here? Please be specific. Don’t simply copy and paste Osama’s garbage. You wrote, “Can you say me how can Shaitan toss the God from one mountain to other? The Dara Singh?” Where did you find that? In the Quran or the Hadith? Particularly the words ‘Shaitan toss the God from one mountain to other.’ Please be specific and that will save your time and mine. It appears to me that you don’t understand simple things unless I quote some ‘wise’ hadith stories. I can do that for you, provided you are specific.
In the above passage of the Bible we see Jesus as the ‘perfect man’ is facing the temptation of the devil. That’s how he showed us how to resist devil’s temptation. Jesus resisted devil’s temptation with the power of the truth of God’s words. How the devil appeared to him, how the devil took him to different places or showed different things are the matters belonging to the supernatural realm.
You wrote:
“There was a black mark on one of the wall of my house. And it disappeared. One day, my brother came and asked me ‘where did that mark go?’ Do you mean that he wanted to know where did the mark move to. Actually, he meant what happened to the mark or how it disappeared. similarly, prophet (pbuh) wanted to explain regarding how does the sun set. Then prophet (pbuh) says that everyday sun prostrates to the throne of God and permitted to rise again. Here again word prostration is taken literally as Jesus (pbuh) prostrated before God.”
My answer:
According to you the following hadith makes great sense…
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, “Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?” I replied, “Allah and His Apostle know better.” He said, “It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: “And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.” (36.30)
Points to ponder:
1. Muhammad is talking about the sunset and sunrise
2. He says everyday sun travels from sunset to sunrise.
3. He says the sun after the sunset goes to prostrate itself (here your explanations about the prostration are convincing to some extent)
4. The prostration takes place under the Throne (Allah)
5. Takes the permission to rise again at the sunrise
Problems in the above observations:
1. If Muhammad simply refers to the sun from human perspective then the phrase ‘sun traveling’ is a part of common language and therefore there is no problem.
2. But here Muhammad was posing as if he knows the reality of the sun and what happens to it during the night when it does not appear in the sky.
3. In this context Muhammad made it clear that he was only an imposter by saying that sun travels in relation to earth. The fact is sun is NOT traveling in relation to the earth. (SCIENTIFIC ERROR)
4. If at all there needs to be a permission from God for the sunset and sunrise it is the earth that needs it, not the sun. (LOGICAL ERROR)
5. There is night always on the face of the earth. The night part of the earth moves constantly with the speed of the earth’s rotation around its own axis. With this factor can any ‘wise’ Muslim tell us how many times the sun supposedly goes under the ‘throne’ and seeks permission, according to Muhammad the ‘wise’?
In addition to the above:
The Quranic Allah says: “And He has made subject to you the sun and the moon,
both diligently persuing their courses; and the night and the day has He (also) made subject to you.
— Sura 14:33
This is both scientifically as well as logically false. (Readers, this being the fact you watch Muslims running to the Hadiths in order to justify the falsity of the Quran. Yet, they boast that the Quran is Allah’s words and error free! The reality is what the Muslims don’t like to see or realize. Quran is so week and incomplete that it needs error prone traditions of men or Islamic ‘rationality’ and ‘wisdom’ to sustain its authenticity)
“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man is he who listens to counsel.” (Holy Bible: Proverbs 12:15)
Adil.
You did hard work to save your skin but only to expose yourself. I am waiting for your complete reply (both parts). I will not let you escape this time. You give full reply and wait for a beautiful, scientific and logical reply and exposure of your lies and lies. Inshallah, as always I will expose your lies and supernatural language where a “superlative” degree is not superlative rather “comparative”, all doesn’t mean all, “death ” doesn’t mean “death” rather growing and all and all.
I will not paste my reply till you answer my questions. But I promise you to give the reply of each and every deception of yours which is quite evident to reader.
Waiting for your reply.
May God give you courage to face the Truth.
comforter.
Dear friend Muslim Comforter,
FANTASTIC!
Let all the glory and praise be to the one true God through his eternal word Jesus Christ!
Thanks for your above comments on my response which I’ll take as a compliment. As a matter of fact, when I was writing my last response I thought I was going to expose your face, but looks like you figured out that I did it to save my skin! Good observation. I can understand your frustration, hard feelings and loosing temper etc. after reading my response. (Truth hurts!) To be honest, probably I would have reacted just the same way as you did if I were in your place. You wrote that I need to wait for a beautiful, scientific and logical reply which would expose my ‘lies!’ Very interesting! I thought you had already written a beautiful, scientific and logical reply to my comments in your posting no. 37! After all that’s not what you wrote, right?! Maybe ‘now’ I need to brace myself for a ‘real’ beautiful, scientific and logical answer from you this time. Okay. Let me wait for such an impressive, whatever it may mean, reply from you next time. You know what? Some things are easier said than done! (Who knows maybe you prove to be an exception to such sayings) By the way, don’t miss out to emphasize the places of my ‘lies.’ Readers would appreciate if you can come clear on your accusations.
If you are serious about getting answers to the supposed ‘tough’ questions you raised in your 38 posting I am willing to address them one by one in my next posting without fail provided you wait until I finish it and post it as you have confidently assured me in your above posting. Before I do that if you come up with something else, I stop preparing my response to those ‘tough’ questions and focus on the new things that you might bring up. It is up to you. You decide. If you want answers wait, if you don’t want answers then go ahead writing something. Please don’t blame me later. Definitely it takes time to write answers to your ‘tough’ questions. If I need to travel during this time as a part of my job my reply would need more time. So please hold your peace till I get back to you.
(Between us!)
Now, let us talk something personal here. I would like to make some suggestions. I have a number of very good Muslim friends, not only in India but also in other countries. I visit some of them with my family and some of them visit my family with their families. They love and cherish my friendship and I cherish theirs. Personally, I don’t want to hurt or humiliate any Muslim just because of his faith and practice. Over the years I learnt to respect my Muslim friends and as a result of that I don’t say things that would hurt them. They don’t attack my faith and I don’t theirs. It’s mutual understanding. Let’s do something like that here too. Through all my rebuttals I don’t expect you to declare one fine day that Islam is wrong and Christianity is right. I am sure you don’t expect the same from me either. As far as I can say, you are a strong believer in ‘ONE TRUE GOD.’ I appreciate that. I do the same. Let this be the common ground between us. Based on this let us do some meaningful, beneficial and civilized debate on this website. In the process, we each can understand the strengths and weakness of other’s faith. Since we both are, as I assume, interested in ‘truth’ therefore let us be truthful and decent in our approach towards each other. By that I mean let us agree to the following points:
1. Each should respect the other person as a dignified fellow human being
2. Each should refrain saying bad or hurting words against other’s religious figures
3. Each should refer to the book that the other person believes as ‘God’s words’ with an acceptable name, but not with a derogatory name.
4. Each should stop ‘calling names.’
5. Each can raise questions about the faith of the other in an appropriate manner. Upon receiving the answer from the other person the answer can be analyzed and be given one more opportunity to face a couple more questions or to be left to the readers to be decide whether the given answer is satisfying or not. After the second time the same issue should not be raised by the questioner again unless the opponent permits him to do so.
6. In each posting let us not exceed more than two issues, one from each faith, that we have been discussing.
7. None of us should raise questions about the authorship or authors of other’s holy book. But we may very well question the contents and the message of the book.
My friend if you want to suggest a different format I will be open to that. Please make suggestions to add to or delete from or make changes to the above list.
Please let me know your thought.
A humble sinner saved by the Lord Jesus Christ,
Adil.
Brother, it is really frustrating, I am giving you a convincing reply and you get silent and escape, I am asking you the relevant question, you are trying to cover one or two and leaving remaining ten and escaping. This is what you have been doing. And when objected and asked about them, you are abusing me and whole community of people with small brain etc. etc. and when clearly commented and pointed out the escaping and asked for reply, again few of the points were tried to cover them, and when I asked for full response of my comments, it is labeled as my frustration. At least, now you accepted that they were tough questions and still to be answered, unlike in the last response (comment 35) where you told ,” MANY THINGS I explained. You couldn’t get the answer. Why? Because your Muslim mind is ‘closed’ to Biblical truths”
Isn’t it amazing. I’m giving response of your partial cover up, but it doesn’t mean you will escape, as you have been doing in past.
Anybody can gauge your desperation in the last comment. You have mainly three ways of answering a question,
i. Abuse the opponent and his whole community, as peoples without intelligence, wisdom, rationality, mind etc.etc. as you have been doing throughout, esp. if one does not support your supernatural mathematics, language or logic.
ii. Counter quote the opponent with number of hadiths, so that you can escape the scene & keep him engaged in that.
iii. Playing with words and changing the meaning to just opposite of what it means e.g. “the smallest” becomes “not the smallest”, “dead” becomes “living”, “one” becomes “three”, “all” becomes “not all”, and probably “hate” can also be called as “love”, and all and all.
You have raised so many points, so I prefer to be systematic and brief to give you and reader the best in least time.
1. I don’t know any Osama or so. I do interact on net and keep some good collections for people like you. May be we have some common source. I never said all the points I mention in my debate is strictly my own but on many occasion I have said the opposite. It has nothing to do with our debate. I am giving the proof and logic you bring your answer and I don’t mind even if you copy those from Mr. Sam as you have been thoroughly doing. I really don’t care it is you or Mr. Sam, whoever is misguided I am there to help him out or at least make him resort to three ways of answering (as I mentioned above).
2. Brother, you did not read my comment properly, I thanked you for admitting that such stories can be written by stupids and used by stupids and in bracket I hinted on those stupids, but the second bracket I left for you to understand as I don’t like to be harsh in my words esp. regarding whole community even though they are wrong. I think you understood but tried to escape in this way. So, I am writing that comment again.
“Brother, thanks again for admitting that SUCH stories can only be written by STUPIDS (More than 40 authors, right?) and used by STUPIDS (Christians).”
Even Mr. Fais admitted SUCH stories (i.e. similitude of the story of the king father killing his innocent son for sins of his people) can be written by stupids and used by stupids (as a way of salvation).
3. Yes, it is not only suicide rate which is least in Saudi Arabia, having Islamic sharia i.e. criminal law (can’t be called as Islamic rule of something like khilafat ), but also rape rate, murder rate, corruption rate, violence rate (whether outside or domestic), stealing rate, robbery rate, bribery rate, kidnapping rate, etc. etc. are all the least in the world by implementing the criminal law alone, not by controlling the news. Who can control the news better than America. Didn’t you see how they themselves killed 3000 of their people and world had to believe that muslims did for them, even without a single concrete proof. When Israel killed more than 200 peoples in few minutes of bombing in Gaza last year, U.S media esp. CNN is telling the world that only 20 peoples are killed. Thanks to Aljazeera to give the correct picture which later proved to be correct. You cannot control the lie for long, brother. One can see there, himself in Saudi Arabia and if you have doubt ask any non-muslim staying there (probably you would have already asked and got the information that dead body is found every where on road, you can’t walk on road after sunset and in every other house females are being raped something like south Africa; isn’t it? ). I agree with you that human rights condition are not good there. This is the same situation in the whole region (almost all oil rich countries ruled by kings and backed by USA).
This is really unfortunate that the community and religion, which taught the world of definition of human rights with perfect implementation in the past has to learn this from them. May God guide them to full Islam.
As far as ‘religious suicide’ is concerned, this word doesnot exist in Islam. If somebody is oppressed and he is being robbed thoroughly of his wealth, pride and relatives, and he fights the oppressor, Islam gives them the right to fight against oppression, while Christianity doesn’t, but Christians do. They go all the way to Iraq to relieve people from oppression of tyrant ruler (? or oil), even though their God taught them to offer the other cheek if someone slaps you on one.
And, if somebody (perverts or extremist) blow himself out to kill oppressors in fighting, it is not ‘religious suicide’. And still there are many news coming of bombing the train and killing innocent etc and immediately labeled to muslim. It is media game, now some of them have even been exposed. Even if somebody recites the name of God and kills innocent people or do suicide, it is not allowed in islam, rather haram in Islam (You can’t eat meat of pig even after reciting name of Allah, our prophet never allowed even Jesus never had pork). Do you know brother, during crusade (Christian jihad or terrorism), Pope gave the certificate of paradise in written on paper to the fighters. Do you consider it as religious terrorism esp. when your khalifa in making (i.e. Pope) is doing such things. Go and read the history of crusade before uttering any nonsense.
4. I have already explained this on the first page i.e. comment 8. I’m re-pasting them here.
Regarding 1+1+1 is not=3????
a. So, 1x1x1=1
According to you, if we want to know the totality or sum we can multiply also. Great concept?
Suppose one person gives you Rupees one lakh on first visit, then one lakh on second visit, then one lakh on third visit. So when it comes to returning, you will give him one lakh, according to your method of totality, as 1x1x1=1. Great?
Or, suppose if he gives one lakh on first visit, then zero amount on second visit, then one lakh on third visit. So when it comes to returning, you will give him Zero. Because 1x0x1=0.
Poor fellow would have never imagined such supernatural mathematics.
Brother think twice before saying a thing, everything is not according to your intellect. There are certain rules, sense and logic.
b. you mean Father was an infinity, Jesus was an infinity and Holy Ghost was an infinity.
What do you mean by infinity?
According to Oxford dictionary: the attribute of being infinite and thing can be infinite in extent, amount or number or duration etc. So what do you mean by infinity here?
Infinite in size: Jesus was of size of normal human being accommodated on cross. So, Jesus not an infinity according to extent or size.
Infinite in number : The LORD our God [is] one LORD. So Father was not infinity according to numbers.
Infinite in knowledge: Jesus didn’t know everything (Mark13:32- But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the Father)
So, Jesus was not an infinity according to knowledge.
Infinite in time: Jesus had a beginning from Mary’s womb. So, Jesus was not infinity according to time.
So, what type of infinity is that? Supernatural act?
Suppose in whatever the supernatural way these were infinity, but you agree, (as you mentioned ) that they were three persons. Suppose you have infinite sand grains and infinite water droplets and infinite sugar grains; that means they all become one and lose their personality only because their attribute is infinite. Great logic! something supernatural?
Surely, God is not the author of confusion.
5. I think you should come out of delusion created by church and liars. Islam is the fastest growing religion now. An established fact. Here is a link of a CNN report (a Christian biased American news channel having international coverage like BBC) on this issue. Please don’t tell me that your church or apologist friend said opposite. If you need further link I am ready to give you to clear your facts.
http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/
6. Let me clear your facts again. I already said our book of God is Quran, which is revealed by God through prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and a book having billions of copy around the world without a difference of word for last 1400 years (since it complete compilation on paper collecting those written on stones, bones, leaves, ruminant paper etc. which was and preserved through MEMORIZATION ). I think you should read about this miracle of Quranic preservation from my debate with another orientalist (so called apologist) on Muslim Matters.com.
So, Quran is our holy book, without contradiction, well preserved, with beautiful style of presentation, one of the best heart soothing rhythm when recited and completely a book from God of all human being for all human being. And, to tell you clearly it is not a book of science, genealogy, stories or pornography. Rather a book of guidance having many stories to guide us, and ways taught by God himself to reach near Him , to get perfect salvation, and guidance regarding almost each and every aspect of life with many proofs and scientific facts, but without pornography and defamation of prophet or God himself (unlike Bible). So, to repeat again, it is a perfect book of guidance, but to those who wish for it.
Now regarding hadith, which is the implementation of Quran by our prophet Mohammad (pbuh). This is something like biography of our prophet but in minute details which is not available in this world for any other human being. Every aspect of his life and teaching has been explained by peoples who were with him and seen him and transmitted though chain of narrators, till it was preserved in writing. Like Bible, as it was not written at the time of prophet, many peoples tried to play mischief with it and attributed many false things on our prophets. We muslim developed a science of hadith to verify the chain of narrators through which it came. And even biography of narrators have been preserved to verify them. Not only that, we have many other criteria to accept them as commandment (even though present through authentic chain of narrators, keeping in view that any human even authentic and truthful, can forget or do mistake) e.g. compatibility with Quran, whether same fact repeated by many other peoples or not etc. And we have almost filtered out hadiths, and commandments of God have been and can be deduced, whether regarding worship or law . We muslims don’t believe that whatever is present in any hadith is literally a word of God or even of prophet unless we examine hadith, it’s context, nature, support from other hadith and quran along with chain of narrators. A perfect system which history never saw to verify any other stories even Bible. And in most of the houses of muslim, hadith book are not found rather Quran and hadithic interpretation of scholars, because everybody can’t go though all those science of hadith to verify the fact. But we have Quran,the word of God, which is there in everybody’s house, many are reciting and enjoying and many are reading and understanding and if any difficulty in commandments appear there is side note or other books of scholar to explain them (without even consulting hadith directly). And orientalists and those who are looking for nuisance are mostly quoting hadith out of context because most of the muslims don’t bother to approach to them (hadiths) and they can fool them. Readers can see this Mr. Adil, is doing the same. You can count how many hadiths he has quoted and how many quranic verses, and you can see how I clarified and showed regarding details of what it actually means.
Now, regarding Bible. Christians believe it was revealed to it’s authors from God himself through another form of God i.e. holy spirit. And every word of it is word of God. And this is their holy book, something parallel to our Quran. But some Christians and even many scholars don’t believe this. Even authors of Bible don’t believe, except Paul (? a disciple) who never ever met Jesus in his life.
See what John said
John 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. 25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
See, here, John has written about himself as third person and saying he was true. Amazing?
John is trying to testify himself as true person; still he never said it was inspired to him.
See, what Luke is saying
Luke 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Even Luke said, he is presenting the heard version not inspired version. But Christians don’t believe.
Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph,…
See, Luke was not sure about his words. Here ‘as was supposed’ should not come from someone who was inspired, know and sure about what he was writing. You know in Malayalam and many other regional language translation, even bracket is not there, so ‘as was supposed’ became the word of God. And, contrary to this, scholars removed them from Revised standard version. Word of God? Gone?
See, Paul in other place also declared the opposite that his words are not holy. He said,
“2corinthians 11:16 I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. 17That which I speak, I speak [it] not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.”
and trying to be nice to his audience, he said,
“2corinthians 11: 1 I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me”
This is book of God but even God doesn’t know the fact e.g.
John6:19 So when they had rowed about five and TWENTY OR THIRTY furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
If John was INSPIRED, he should know exactly how far.
There are many many things in the Bible itself to prove it is not word of God. Do you know, your this Bible alleges prophet of raping, polytheism, incest etc. and God with many human qualities like tiring, forgetting, behaving like lion, behaving like drunkard etc. And even allege Jesus of many wrong things like calling his mother as ‘woman’, just as he used to call prostitute, calling his disciple ‘satan’ (devil or shaitan), calling others as ‘white sepulchers’, ‘generation of vipers’ etc. And having many materials of pornography even one chapter is dedicated to the same. Read this chapter – Ezekiel Ch 23.
Do, you still consider this book to be word of God or as we muslims believe, that this book was of God but has been corrupted by peoples.
Actually what you presented was not muslims arguments rather dialogue between two Christian mis-presenter and one pretending to be Muslim. And this type of scene is common in missionary agenda in form of books, audios and videos. So, I will take your question as Christian question and will present you the reply of a muslim to them and see the Truth.
Muslims’ arguments go something like this:
Muslim: Quran is perfect without changes and errors
Christian: I read the Quran and hadiths. As far as I can say, there are changes in the text and errors (grammatical, logical, scientific and historical) in the message of the Quran. This can be ascertained from the text of the Quran itself and also form the hadiths.
Muslim: I think you didn’t read my comment properly. I said ,” Quran is perfect without changes and errors ”. As far as hadith is concerned we have one of the most scientific and logical way, to get the Truth. I think you didn’t read your Bible which is full of rubbishes and contradictions.
Christian: How do you know there are no errors and changes in the Quran?
Muslims: Show me one error in Quran.
Christian: Mr. Sam has so many of them listed.
Muslim: O.K. give me one. If Mr. Sam could not understand, it is not the problem of Quran. And we have to see the context along with other verses of Quran to understand the further details.
Christians: So hadiths give us the real meaning and context of the Quran.
Muslims: Who said so? Hadith helps us in understanding the context and implementation of Quran.
Christian: Then hadiths should be more reliable than the Quran.
Muslim: What made you think so? Probably Paul? As for you, wordings of Paul is more important than Jesus, you think same for others. E.g. Jesus got circumcised and Paul stopped it and you follow him. Isn’t it?
Christian: According to your presentation the error free quality of the Quran is established by the error prone hadiths. However, the hadiths themselves don’t have that quality. How can anybody buy what the error prone hadiths establish about the Quran?
Muslims: This is your deception. How come you buy error-full bible, while you have problem with error-prone (but verified and filtered) hadiths to support understanding the context and implementation. Humans can do mistake, we accept and verify these mistakes of human but what about your God committing numerous mistakes in Bible. We don’t behave irrationally that if there is chance of mistake in something precious, we will discard them out. Rather we will verify and correct the problem. We want to cut out the tumor not the whole human being.
Einstein gave many theory, some of them wrong and some of them correct. Only because it was error prone, we should not have taken Einstein’s word? Brother, We have to verify and take the correct thing as we did in Einsteins’s case and so in Hadith.
Christian: …..???????! Perhaps this is called Islamic ‘rationality’ and ‘wisdom!’
Muslim : This is called as logic and true rationality and best of Wisdom.
7. There are two sahih hadiths on this topic both in sahih bukhari & through the same chain. (it is ahad hadith). I am quoting both of them, even if you don’t like.
Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 673
Narrated Abu Huraira:
“Allah’s Apostle said, “If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, LET HIM DIP ALL OF IT (INTO THE VESSEL) AND then throw it away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for it) i.e. the treatment for that disease.”
Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said “If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease.”
My response on your comments:
i. I think you again did not understand this. If you observe properly, housefly has habit of folding one wing while moving around. So, when filth touches, it is mainly one wing which is sticking to the surface and getting filth while the other wing which is clean has only the antidote.
ii. If prophet did not say about feet or intestine it doesnot mean they have no role in infection and when fly dips it is the superficial area which comes into contact with water or drink not the intestine which is well guarded by proboscis. And surface area of feet is so less compared to the wings that they were insignificant to mention.
iii. yes, housefly can carry millions of germs and so do human like you & me, if coming to the contact of similar filth and even without that hundreds of dangerous organism are present in your oral cavity and genitalia. It ‘can cause many disease’ is not equal to ‘it will cause all the disease and bacterias all the time’. It depends on which filth that particular fly is residing, it will carry those disease and antidote on their body surface (of the same).
iv. You re-wrote:
Research about the fly resistance to the effect of the germs it carries:
Since resistance to diseases is found virtually in every living thing, it is commonsensical to note that the flies that carry germs should have some defensive system to its own protection from the germs. Therefore they looked in there and came up with the following according to one website:
Here is what the scientists say…
“The SURFACE OF FLIES (it does not say including wings: I SAID SO IN BRACKET, TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND AND TO EMPHASIZE THAT WING IS A MAJOR PART OF THE SURFACE; YOU ARE REACTING AS IF I SAID ‘SURFACE INCLUDING INTESTINE’) is the last place you would expect to find antibiotics, yet that is exactly where a team of Australian researchers is concentrating their efforts.”
“The antibiotic material is EXTRACTED BY DROWNING THE FLIES IN ETHANOL, then running the mixture through a filter to obtain the crude extract.”
“Working on the theory that flies must have remarkable antimicrobial defences to survive rotting dung, meat and fruit, the team at the Department of Biological Sciences, Macquarie University, set out to identify those antibacterial properties manifesting at different stages of a fly’s development.”
Now points of consideration:
i. you said: Antibiotics are present on the surface of the flies i.e. the body pats of the fly, particularly feet [WHERE IS IT WRITTEN? ]. That is the place where germs would come in contact with the fly, hence the presence of the antibiotics.
My response:[WHO SAID SO? HOUSE FLY IS NOT CRAWLING INSECT WHICH CAN CARRY DISEASE THROUGH FEET RATHER IT FLIES (NAME FLY?). AND IT USES WING WHILE FLYING THROUGH FILTHY AREA AND ONLY WHEN IT SITS, FEET MIGHT INVOLVED BUT STILL THERE IS CHANCE OF INVOLVEMENT OF WINGS MORE THAN FEET DUE TO ENORMOUS SURFACE AREA OF WINGS.]
ii. You said: The antibiotic material can be extracted by drowning the ‘flies’ (not fly) in ‘ethanol’ (not in water). That means in order to get some significant amount of antibiotics even to study we need several flies, perhaps a number of them.
My response: [Who wanted to extract it for study purpose (there you need “flies” not “fly” as the amount should be more)? That (dipping) was intended for cure not extraction of antibiotic chemical. Even after extraction of chemical when you have to use for curing purpose you need water to get that antibiotic chemical back into activity. Don’t you see most of the antibiotic syrup needs water as solvent, not alcohol. You better try your alcohol (ethanol) as solvent for amoxicillin dried powder and give to your kids and tell me about your experience. Sorry, I was joking. Please don’t punish your baby for your sin.]
iii. You said: Each fly can carry millions of bacteria that are deadly for human life……
My response: [I already said, ‘CAN CARRY’ doesn’t mean ‘WILL DEFINITELY CARRY’, otherwise many peoples in rural India having flies there in everything, will die of millions of disease attacking together.. probably within seconds]
iv. You said If a fly washed by rain falls, surely will have it’s antidote washed out.
My response: At the same time it’s filth which is more superficial would also be absent as it would must also be washed out. Common logic. Nothing supernatural… Ha..ha..haa
Now regarding your first point:
Was it a commandment from prophet Mohammad (pbuh). Certainly not, according to our criteria of science of hadith, as it is ahaad hadith only, it could have different wordings as we can see the two instances of the same hadith and one with few wordings more, that you should throw it (?fly) after dipping. So, in the past if somebody had instances and if he did that, it was O.K. and even if he didn’t do there is no harm in that as it is not a commandment.
Question is, shall a muslim drink a drink, in which fly fell esp. after dipping it for cure?
Answer is in the answer of following question. Shall a muslim scrub herb for certain diseases, when it’s antibiotic is easily available in market? Of course not. It is not practical for present time. So, do we have any wisdom from this hadith, for present time? Yes, re-refer to those journals and Australian website and work on this and have cure for many more diseases still not known.
So, Muhammad (pbuh) is perfectly right in saying that other wing (which is not dirty) has cure (alone as it is not mixed up with filth).
If Mr. Osama (according to you), wrote that it can carry many diseases including malaria and can be dangerous, how did you believe this? I think you are more of the follower of Mr. Osama than me (even though my case is just a coincidence). No housefly can carry any malaria. Only mosquito can do that and that also through it’s sting not wing.
8. You wrote:
Not only I but all the readers got the point. Now I will explain to you, if you can understand, the supposed scientific and logical mistakes done by Jesus, my Lord and God before whom every knee shall bow. Unfortunately, they are funny to those who blindly believe seventh century Arab poet’s scientific accuracy, but for others who think with their commonsense they are not. Let’s see…
Matthew 13:31-32 ” Another parable he put before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of MUSTARD SEED which A MAN TOOK AND SOWED IN HIS FIELD; IT IS THE SMALLEST OF ALL SEEDS, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.”
The problem the ‘wise’ Muslim mind sees here in the above verses: “The mustard seed is not the smallest of all seeds. Others, such as the orchid seed, are smaller.” (LOOKS LIKE OSAMA AND COMFORTER DELIVERED ONE OF THE BLOW ON CHRISTIANS!)
Understanding the problem:
i. Jesus is not giving an advice, but explaining a truth.
My response: Agree with you
ii. The context in which he was speaking the truth of the kingdom of God was the first century Palestine peasants’ community.
My response: where is it written? Can anybody see Palestine written here? May be you are thinking so as Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. But I think you believe Jesus to be God, and even then he is limited to place? May be he was God of Israel only? But brother, Jesus is saying here that he is talking in parable (which is usually general use of word). So, where is the context? Please don’t fool people with your rubbishes.
iii. He is NOT comparing the mustard seed with the rest of the seeds in the WORLD!
My response: So, what is he doing there? If God said, mango is the best of all fruits. Doesn’t it mean I am comparing mango with all other fruits of world? And, if Jesus said ‘it is smallest of all seeds’, he did compare in the superlative way to all the seeds of world (even he declared the context of this parable of field as ‘world’ not Palestine: see verse 38). Isn’t it?
iv. He is comparing the mustard seed with the rest of the seeds a Palestine farmer would use in his farm (v.31: “A MAN took and sowed in his field”).
My response: Where did Jesus say so? Does “a man” means “a Palestinian” only? I think God should acknowledge us also (not only Palestinian) as man. May be if Jesus had told “ONE AMONG YOU took and sowed in his field” then there could be some distant possibility of your fixing up. But, sorry. You failed miserably.
Can you see the scientific or logical problem?
My response: Again supernatural language i.e. ‘world’ = ‘Palestine’. That’s why Israel wants to take the whole world in the form of Palestine?
Brother, I am really sorry, your supernatural language is beyond comprehension even to our readers (with comprehension).
So, in short it is a grave mistake of Bible where author doesn’t have knowledge of biology esp. related to seed. Can he be God? Only people with supernatural (?) understanding can believe
9. You wrote:
“Mark 16:18 “they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
Christians so bothered by the falsehood of this verse due to the many fatalities they suffered because of it, that the Bible theologians insist on denying these verses by saying: “The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.”
Here M Comforter (Osama the ‘wise’ Muslim) forgot to mention what scientific or logical error can be found here.
Let’s see the verses in context:
“And He (Jesus) said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation, He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. And these sings will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it shall not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” (Mark 16:17-18)
i. Jesus is saying the above ‘sings’ (wonders) are given to the people who are saved by believing the ‘gospel’ that is being preached in Jesus’ name.
My response: In short one who believes in Christianity will be saved. Isn’t it?
ii. These ‘sings’ are given by God and are therefore do not fall within the purview of science or logic. (Obvioiusly Biblical God is able to furnish such powers to whom He choses, but Quranic Allah is incapable of doing such a thing) .
My response: Is it not against logic that one, who should die of eating deadly poison does not die? If it is really true, why not a single man could succeed this. Poor William Campbell lost his all belief and started sweating and refused blatantly when asked to do this publicly.
iii. All these above ‘sings’ not necessarily be seen in just one person.
My response: Where is it written? Did holy ghost inspire you?
iv. Jesus did not say, “these sings should accompany every single one who believes”
My response : Sorry, read the verse properly, he said, “these sings will accompany those who have believed”. Jesus did not say “some of you who believed”. Here also “those who believe” means “some of those who believe”. How? Supernatural?
v. Personally, I know many people who have one or the other of the above sings that Jesus spoke about.
My response: I was expecting you would say that you have at least one of those ‘sing’. Can you give me the contact information of one of those person who had one of those ‘sing’ of getting saved from deadly poison. I will accept Christianity publicly if he showed it to me publicly and drink the poison I bring ( and may be millions of people can accept Christianity by seeing that show, defying all logic and science that deadly poison is not able to kill. i.e. miracle or ‘sing’)…. Great opportunity….
Do you know there is one another way for you to test your belief:
Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, IF YE HAVE FAITH AS A GRAIN OF MUSTARD SEED, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Now test yourself and say me whether you have faith, at least as small (smallest in the world?) as mustard seed. Or you are just beating around the bush. Please don’t tell me of your personal friend who did this miracle. Then I will challenge him for the same as I did before.
You continued:
Osama vents his venom: Christians so bothered by the falsehood of this verse due to the many fatalities they suffered because of it (where is the proof? In one of the hadiths?!) that the Bible theologians (you mean like STUPID hadith producers?!) insist on denying these verses by saying: “The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.”
i. True Bible scholars (unlike deviant ones) say as a matter of fact, “some of the oldest mss. Do not contain vv.9-20.” They don’t insist on denying them.
My response: so, you accept it was lately introduced into the word of God.
ii. This is simply stating the fact which is a part of the scholarly approach.
My response: If your scholar say “about word of God” SOME OF THEM WERE NOT PRESENT IN EARLY MANUSCRIPT (read these capitalized words again to understand the severity of problem in Bible) but accepted and put in your Bible as word of God, you say it to be a part of scholarly approach, but if our scholar say that we need to verify “our prophets hadith, written by human beings” before accepting it thoroughly, it is called as error- prone. Isn’t it supernatural?
iii. Christians don’t believe in destroying ‘conflicting’ mss (like Uthman) in order to produce just one ‘official’ volume and then declare that there is only one error free ‘book of Allah!’
My response: If you or Mr. Sam produce any conflicting version of Quran, every single Muslim will become Uthman and destroy that. He (Uthman) did not do to produce any official rather to preserve the official versions. (Details you can see on my debate on Muslim matters.)
What about you people throwing out the conflicting verses and even chapters and books from your Bible and producing new versions and edition with verses removed or added. I think you have very little knowledge regarding your Bible compared to hadiths. This happens if you depend on person like Mr. Sam for knowledge. Proof: go to any near shop and buy different versions of Bible and find out the differences. If you don’t have time to read, tell me I’ll guide you.
To repeat, is it not illogical or unscientific that a person who is taking a deadly poison (suppose cyanide) does not have any problem?
10. You wrote:
John 12:24 “I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and DIES, it remains only a single seed. But if it DIES, it produces many seeds.”
That is scientifically false. The dead seed does not produce new seeds.
What do you say about God (Jesus) the biologist and theologian. (nouzbillah)
i. You wrote: Where did Jesus say, “The dead seed produce new seeds”? …
My response: Can’t you read? Let me write it again for you , “But if it DIES, it produces many seeds.”
ii, iii, & iv. So, you mean death doesn’t mean death rather growing.
My response:
Something like fetus growing from zygote to a baby. You mean Zygote died in this process. Keep your intelligence with you. Brother, zygote or seed grows to become baby or plant. They don’t die. Don’t teach us your supernatural English.
v. Regarding context:
My response: Control your aggression. I’ll give you the context. If you read the context of this parable it is related to ‘death’ only not ‘growing’. And Jesus was preparing his team for mission i.e. Jihad. He was removing fear of death by quoting these parables that if you die you will be successful. Read the next few verses to get perfect context
i.e. “25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.”
6. You said: According to Jesus the ‘death of the seed’ occurs during the process of producing the new plant, but not prior to it.
My response: Can’t you read? Let me write it again for you , “But if it DIES, it produces many seeds.” Can you see here it is written clearly that prior to producing seed it dies i.e. if it dies, it produces many seeds.
Then you said: So, where is the so-called ‘scientific false?’ Perhaps in the minds of ‘wise’ Muslims!
My response: writer of Bible is saying that if one seed (kernel of wheat) DIES (scientifically means ceasing from being alive, i.e. they can no longer perform any metabolic function, it never means transforming or growing), it produces many seeds.
So, if it ceases from being alive, it can never produce further seeds. This statement ( i.e. a single dead seed after it dies produce many seeds) is scientifically a false statement. I think even a WISE Christian will not accept that ( through his comprehension), he also needs some supernatural power to understand this.
11. You wrote:
‘Omnipresent means present everywhere at all times. This is the quality of God. Interestingly Muhammad could not include this in his Quran. Why? Because, he is a mere human being. Ironically, H Muhammad gave this quality to Shaitan, which is only a created being and cannot be in many different places at the same time. Simple logic: Any created being cannot be present in two different places at the same time’.
My response: We don’t believe, God is everywhere at all times (physically as from context). You mean God is present in your feces also which you defecated (Nauzbillah). We don’t believe so. We believe that God knows everything and it can be said that by his knowledge, He is everywhere but not physically as you mean. Shaitan (Devil) is not one particular being rather it is a general name of God’s one type of creation like human being. So, if I say one human is in India another human in USA, or like this billions of people in billions of place, what is the problem in this. And Islam doesn’t say that devil has a particular shape or size. Devil can be in the form of even Jinn (invisible) or even Human (Sam). See the last chapter of Quran. Yes, similarly one doctor can be in one place while the others in other places doing the same job of treating the patient.
Now you asked where is it written Shaitan (Devil), is tossing your God.
Read these verses again from your Bible:
Matthew 4: 5Then the DEVIL taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6And saith unto him, If thou be THE SON OF GOD, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8AGAIN, THE DEVIL TAKETH Him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
So, Devil (satan or shaitan ; if it is not so tell me the name of dictionary which says so ) was carrying (probably, silently without tossing in his lap, OK! ) THE SON OF GOD or JESUS or YOUR GOD or YOUR LORD. Could you see? And was challenging and tempting the God. I just meant to say when the devil (probably in the form of Dara Singh) can have the capacity to play with your God, sorry, toss the God, sorry again, carry the God from one mountain to other, why can’t other devils of miniscule size (in form of bacteria) can’t accommodate in peoples nose. And you said probably God was in human form, so shaitan (devil) could carry him and according to you he was a perfect human ( and probably perfect God also). How? God was cheating people by disguising? How then He became perfect human? How can a uncreated becomes created? Then what happened to the original God? You mean there was no original God remaining or two divided Gods, one in human form and another in heaven or three along with holy ghost? So, Jesus was lying or deceiving people that your God is ONE lord. How can one person be perfect God and perfect Human being at the same time. One is created, another creator; one with beginning and ending, another without beginning and ending (i.e. eternal) etc. One cannot be two opposite things together.
Can a perfect priest (truly Godly person) be a perfect rapist (a notorious sinner) at the same time i.e. two opposite things.
If it is something like one is father and he is also a friend and may be a doctor also. So, if that father died it means that friend and Doctor also died. What happened to The Father (The God) when Jesus died for three days? Who was controlling the universe?
How was Jesus a perfect human and Perfect God at the same time? According to Anis Shorosh , a mystery and probably according to you another word of the same token i.e. supernaturally.
12. You raised many points on this hadith.
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, “Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?” I replied, “Allah and His Apostle know better.” He said, “It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: “And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.” (36.30)
I think I should give your little more detail on this hadith. Let’s see:
SPEAKER OF THIS HADITH: Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), a human being, (best among all the creation of God), whom God selected as his last prophet. To repeat, he was a human being just like us (but certainly not a ‘human’ like us when comes to personality, character, truthfulness etc.) and God revealed to him (as he was prophet). God selected him for his mission of sending the message in which he was perfect. But if somebody says he was best of the cardiologist or astronomer, he is just going overboard. God didn’t say, He sent to us a prophet who is also a cardiologist or astronomer. As we saw his knowledge was limited and we have already discussed on this topic as he was prophet of Allah, not Allah. God revealed through him the Quran having many information regarding world, science and universe and it was perfect, as it was from God and many a thing prophet explained to his peoples of that time using the metaphorical language to make them understand but even that was not contradicting to the logic or science (as his saying was guided by God), if examined properly and at the same time may not be necessarily explaining the scientific facts in minor detail as expected from a present day scientist.
ADDRESSEE:
Immediate- illiterate people of Arabia 1400 yrs back
Late- whole of humanity till the end
STYLE OF HIS PRESENTATION: of course to the level of their intelligence but should not be contradicting to peoples yet to receive.
AIM OF THIS HADITH: Explain about the Sun and it’s humbleness in obeying and gloriying Allah.
Let me divide this hadith into three parts for simplification:
i. [The Prophet asked me at sunset, “Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?” I replied, Allah and His Apostle know better.]
Response: in the last response, I already explained to you the metaphorical use of this sentence (in the example of black mark on the wall..), Here “you know where the sun goes” means actually “what happened to sun.”
ii. [He said, “It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west.]
Response: Word used here is ‘zahaba’ (go) not ‘safara’ (travel). So the phrase of ‘travelling to’ doesn’t exist (mistake on translators’s part). So, here this ‘goes’ can be interpreted as ‘appears’. (even, in normal use ‘go’ can be used as ‘appear’ e.g. ‘going for exam’ can be said as ‘appearing for exam’). Even if you see text properly, no where did the Prophet, for instance, say that the sun goes through a hole on earth (as the Hindu scriptures say), nor did he say that the sun goes UNDER THE EARTH!
Throne of Allah encompasses everything and every part of universe, so ‘throne’ word again used in metaphorical sense. It can be very easily understood that the sun which disappeared from one side of this earth (i.e. sunset there), is appearing on the other side of earth (and still under the throne) and performing it’s duty of giving light and energy to us , which can be called as prostrating (performing it’s duty can be called as prostrating ,as you already agreed in last comment). And on permission of God it will keep appearing again to the next part of earth which get’s the sunrise and then sunset. Do you know the massive size of sun is very crucial in keeping it’s relation with earth, it’s minor deflection from it’s relative position will be very crucial for earth. And imagine, the sun is itself rotating (we already saw the link), and as a part of Galaxy, receding away continuously, but still it maintains it’s relation to earth and appearing to us as sunset and sunrise and prostrating and glorifying to Allah in it’s humblest way. One day Sun won’t be able to maintain it’s position (no permission from God) and that will be the beginning of Doom’s day. Even present day scientists believe that Sun will be crucial in the collapse or end of earth.
Iii. [And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing. (36.30) ]
Response: See this beautiful statement of Quran quoted by our Prophet (pbuh). Quran says this 1400 yrs back about, the movement of the Sun, which is known to our scientists only few decades back.
13. Now about Quran 14:33
Yusuf Ali translation:
“And He has made subject to you the sun and the moon,
both diligently pursuing their courses; and the night and the day has He (also) made subject to you.
Mohsin Khan translation:
“And He has made the sun and the moon, both constantly pursuing their courses, to be of service to you; and He has made the night and the day, to be of service to you.”
Are sun and moon are not of service to us? How could have been night, without moon and how could have life, without sun. This is both logically and scientifically a truth.
To repeat, Quran is a book without a single error or contradiction. And had been and will be same through out, and we are not sure which Bible you will be having after 100 yrs.
esp. when changes are being done so frequently.
A butcher is saying to one of his cow, come on! no more use of knife among us. Yes. It happens, if cow is on the butcher’s chest. Brother it was you, who was bombarding the hadiths and making the topic lengthier, with typical Orientalists’ approach. I was saying to ask me one by one. Now when you are entrapped in your trick, you are asking me for the same. Alhamdulillah. I never went out of topic, it is you who are responsible for my response, short or lengthy. It is you who have been abusive and even if I said, it was just a counter. Control yourself, everything will be controlled.
As far as topics are concerned I need answer of all those questions you escaped (and it includes all those I pointed out and all those I will point them out, once you tackle them, from my previous comments only), or a simple sentence of affirmation, that you don’t know, before proceeding further.
Quran 17: 81 “And say: “Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish.”
May God guide you and me to the Truth.
Comforter.
Brother,
May the God of all human being bless us all & guide us to the Truth. I am not writing this to bombard verses and entrap you with them. Rather, I just want to elaborate few topics which I discussed above.
1. REGARDING YOUR OBJECTIONS ON QURAN: I already told that THIS BOOK IS A BOOK OF GUIDANCE. And I agree with you that this book is different from others. And it must be, as the author (God of all human being) of this book is different from others ( rather not like any one). And for your attention this is the only book of it’s kind in the whole world. No book like this could ever be produced or would ever be produced. Not even a verse of it could be brought by anybody and even challenged in Quran. Many attempts were done. All failed miserably. This is another topic, inshallah in future, I will explain why and how they failed. As Quran is in Arabic, I will have to explain in detail regarding all the aspects of Arabic language as well.
As, it is expected from a typical book of a human being, it apparently does not have typical topical discussion, transition of topic and even chronology etc. We have a very different presentation, it has many stories, but not like any other story book, it is dealing with law but not like a law book, it has science, astronomy, sociology, political science etc., but not like respective book written by humans on this subject. It is basically a book with a mission and purpose. Mission is the establishment of Truth of one and only God and purpose in general is guidance. And through out, this book has never deflected from this basic topic or theme.
It is a book giving guidance at individual level as well as community level (immediate community to international community). It is a book detailing etiquettes of life as well as different aspect of laws. It is a book threatening from doing bad things and condemning bad thing, as well as praising good things and giving glad tidings. A book which is consoling as well as teaching patience. A book with many stories for knowledge and wisdom as well as book with proof and evidence. It is a book which is clearing misconception as well as showing the real way of salvation.
All these are coming one after another. Sometimes same topic is dealt in different places and sometimes in different style, but never strayed away from main theme of guidance. Where ever you read you will never feel away from the message. Every paragraph has freshness in it, none of the story gets stale, where ever you are, just go few verses back you have the theme with you, you are into the story. Amazing book.
It has been revealed to our last prophet Mohammad (pbuh), in stages with perfect practical implementation for over 23 yrs. Whenever it was revealed to our prophet, he would immediately recite it to scribes to write it down and then will verify by listening to it and then will advice them to put in particular chapter, after or before particular verses. It is amazing, God revealed this amazing masterpiece of Arabic prose and poetry through a person who did not even know to read and write (a historical fact).
Yes, it is not put in the typical chronology as it was revealed rather in a particular arrangement as advised by Mohammad (pbuh ) through divine guidance. One of the wisdom which I feel is to give freshness and importance to each and every topic dealt in this book, which includes the verse from different parts of the revelation, giving the wholesome to message. On the contrary to this, if the book was arranged in the typical chronology, incidents and advise given in the beginning could have lost it’s significance and could open door to many mischief, something like old testament and new statement. You know many Christians don’t take old testament seriously. Commandments and law from Old testament are no longer practical for them. Quran has the solution of that problem in it’s universal and complete form.
How to understand this book? It is rather very simple, once you understand about this book and shed off your presumptions. Few points to keep in mind before reading this book.
I. This is a book of guidance which our creator has written for us. You simply assume YOU ARE LISTENING TO ADVICE OF YOUR CREATOR NOT READING A STORY BOOK.
II. SHED OFF YOUR PRESUMPTION that a topic will start which will introduce the subject and story will continue. Rather just assume God is going to give you certain advice, with proof clearing misconception and even many examples and parable, all full of wisdom.
III. IF YOU KNOW LITTLE BACKGROUND OF HUMAN HISTORY, IT WILL BE MORE FRUITFUL. In short, God made us for a test in this world, and on the basis of this, one will get reward or punishment. Everybody will be accountable for his act as God gave all human being the sense of right and wrong along with free will to act as he wishes. Not only that, God sent many messengers to guide human. For every time and every nation one or more of the person from their community had been selected by God for this purpose i.e. prophet. And when the time reached, that the message can be perceived for ever (till the end), God sent the last prophet and through him this book of guidance (Quran) which is meant for ever. Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Isaac, Ismael, David, Solomon, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad (pbut) were all human and prophet of God to guide the peoples. As Mohammad (pbuh), was last prophet, his message is for all humanity and for ever. And that is the reason, God preserved this book from any adulteration, unlike other scriptures (Go to shop or library and verify yourself).
IV. ALL THE PROPHETS OF GOD GAVE THE SAME BASIC MESSAGE, and way of salvation was same for all human being i.e. faith in God and righteous deed. Yes, with time few laws of old had been abrogated and new law accordingly given e.g. Jesus preached to offer other cheek if somebody hits on one, while through Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) we were given right to punish the offender in the same amount as he committed to you, alcohol was prohibited with time, females got share in inheritance, etc. But the basic message of Oneness of God, accountability on the basis of deed and faith (involving mercy of God), truth of hereafter, etc. were always the same.
V. Peoples of both types were always present i.e. one who followed (believers) and one who did not follow the advice (disbelievers and hypocrites). And even from those who followed, there were people who innovated many things in the religion and deformed the religion (innovators from ahle-kitab) to a point where even it’s basic message got changed. And they are still not able to get out of their prejudices. And Satan is always there to help them.
VI. BRIEF BIOGRAPHY OF PROPHET MOHAMMAD (PBUH) AND HIS MISSION, WILL HELP YOU UNDERSTAND MORE about the context and it’s implementation and wisdom.
With these few basics, which we all (most if not all) muslims have, we don’t feel any difficulty in getting the best of guidance possible for human being.
This book is meant for all human being and as pilot project revealed to Arabs (worst of the people of that time), having message involving local situation as well as general situation for encompassing the whole humanity. One can see the wonder of this mission (from history), that within a period of 23 years one orphan and illiterate man brought this part of world out of darkness and prepared peoples to continue this mission to reach every part of this world, with the lamp of Quran in the hand.
I think I must demonstrate the fact I mentioned above regarding this book. To prevent any question on selection of verses , I am just choosing first few verses of Quran .
DEMO:
( It is better, you open any standard translation of Quran and follow me and see the beauty of this book.)
Starting with first chapter (Al- Fatihah-The opening prayer) and first verse- here God is teaching us the way to start any new thing i.e. with the name of Allah most gracious and most merciful (This is the few words that we use to start any project ). We are now ready to get guidance and we got the message that He is most gracious and most merciful, so we can be guided and salvated. A feeling of positive energy started flowing.
Then the next few verses are basically a prayer in which God is teaching us a way to ask for God’s help and precondition one for the same. God is teaching us that the best of the manner is to be thankful (by praising the most praiseworthy) to God. Then one should begin with the basic theme i.e. asking God for guidance to a straight path, the path which God likes i.e. the true way of salvation. And also mentioned specifically to save us from the path of those strayed away. Amen. The opening chapter concludes, and we have preconditioned ourselves for guidance and opened the door of divine guidance by following the way taught by Almighty Himself.
Then starts the next chapter (Surah Al- Baqrah- The Cow ) and series of guidance in the most positive way, for which we prayed to God in the form of first chapter and now onwards the remaining book is the guidance of God .
After beginning with the name of Allah and belief, that we are going to listen to the most GRACIOUS and most merciful, our guidance begins. Initially, few abbreviated letters (verse 1) which was typical of contemporary style of Arabic presentation and stressing the subject and giving the rhythm to the recitation (Another topic of misguidance for disbelievers and I have discussed in detail on muslim matters .com rather my first comment, there ). Then (verses 2-5) we have first few verses of this chapter. God is saying about this book which you are going to read, to be a book of guidance without doubt, from Almighty Himself and is a book, free of corruption and helpful in guidance only if you wish to get benefit from this. You can get maximum guidance if you are pious, you believe in unseen, perform prayer, spend in way of God, believe in books before (i.e. Torah and Gospel to be book of God as well when it was revealed, but of course corrupted with time as mentioned in other place in Quran). So, after this perfect preconditioning (verses 6-9), God is warning from other types of peoples who don’t believe and can’t have the guidance due to their disbelief and hypocrisy. They were thinking that they were fooling Allah rather they were fooling themselves. Then (verse 10-16) given instances of how these peoples will react to Truth and how they obeyed Satan and disobeyed God. And Allah does not guide such peoples and they become more strayed.
[I think these verses are the answers of your questions of your inability to understand this book and guidance from it]
Then (verse17-20) Allah gives example of kindled fire and it’s light but the disbeliever could not be benefitted. Then Allah showed them His sign (Thunder and lightening), but they could not perceive, because of their disbelief.
After discussing two different types of people (believer and disbeliever), God is commanding us to be among one who believes. (verse 21) God is commanding us to worship (following God) our Lord and become pious believer. Then again God showed signs of sky etc and, then stressed the same that your Lord is the only lord and you should worship Him alone and don’t worship others ( same as repeated in many place in Bible). Then He is replying to the people like you, who were misguided by Satan, who say that it was written by Mohammad (pbuh). God is saying that it is not possible for human to write this and challenging to bring one chapter like this. And God is announcing the result that they can’t do and threatening them from fire of hell so that they can mend their ways. Then at the same time God is giving glad tidings to those who believe and do righteous good deeds. They are successful (verse 25). Then again starts another correction of misconception, threatening (to be away from evil act), the declaration and guidance to the Truth and series continues.
Even though, different verses in Quran addressing on different theme from different angle, but the basic theme and mission is the same throughout and with unmatched wisdom and presentation, building a person and community with the truth of God deep inside.
2. I think, there is one point more in last discussion, I need to be more clear i.e. regarding “the other (wing) has the cure for the disease”. What I wrote there, is the saying of few scholars, which I read somewhere, it is said that it is habit of fly to fold one wing esp. when moving around in filth (not during normal fly). I thought to verify the details of this behavior on internet. But unfortunately, no much study has been done in this regard (as far as I felt), probably due to relative insignificance of the matter. So, I thought to observe fly myself. I observed that during normal flight, ‘fly’ is flying normally. But, when in filth there were certain change in behavior esp. occasional folding of one wing or another. Sometimes it is scrapping one wing or another.
So, to make my answer more logical, I would like to clear that, this aspect can’t be totally neglected. Another point: there is a simple high possibility that, when a fly moves around or sit in a filthy area one of it’s wing is soiled more than the other. Antidote might be present on both wings, but the wing which is soiled is having high possibility of it’s antidote used up (to neutralize the offending agent), while the other wing which is relatively clean will have high quantity of antidote. If we see the statement of prophet, it is clearly a GENERAL statement i.e. “the other (wing) has the cure for the disease”. Let’s see this example to be more clear. My friend’s son was eating something with his left hand, on seeing that my friend corrected him and told to eat with right hand. On that, his son asked him, why? Then, he replied that left hand is dirty as because you clean you potty with that hand (knowing that his son washes his hand after cleaning). And it is also a possibility that one’s right hand can also be impure. Still, this comparative statement can be said in this way, that right hand is clean while left hand is dirty (general notion). Our prophet, if used such statement to Arab illiterates (mostly) 1400 yrs back, can’t be taken in strict sense rather general.
So, the statement of our prophet can easily be understood as the one wing which has more of filth in it while the other is having more of antidote.
3. (Personal)
Brother, we love you too, rather we consider you closest to us than any other religious community (due to teaching of same Quran).
Brother we can’t force you or anybody to Islam, as it is prohibited for us (Quran 2:256), neither can I guide anybody. I can only give the message of Truth and clarify any misconception in the religion. Guidance is solely in the hand of God. But surely, I wish that many people are guided to the Truth of God of all human being and have a meaningful and peaceful life here and the hereafter.
Brother, I have no intention to hurt anybody but in the presentation of Truth I might have hurt somebody esp. those flowing in prejudices. Isn’t it said that truth is harsh. Still, I’m asking for sorry again, if somebody is hurt in the process of presentation and clarification.
I too have many Christian friends, esp. from among my colleagues. Many of them are wonderful peoples. May God guide them to the Truth.
I have no problem, if you deal with your backlog one by one or altogether, but I want you to be logical and scientific in your reply, not supernatural. As far as I am concerned, if you feel I escaped any comments of yours, you can ask them one by one or even altogether. But no new topic, until you clear your back log.
Few of the verses of Quran I would like to dedicate to you and my other Christian brothers:
i. Those related to their prejudices: They think what they are doing are correct but actually that is a trick of Satan. Satan makes thing fair-seeming to you. So, you are in delusion that whatever you are doing is correct.
Quran 6:43 …..But their hearts became hardened, and Shaitân (Satan) made fairseeming to them that which they used to do.
Quran 8:48 And (remember) when Shaitân (Satan) made their (evil) deeds seem fair to them ……
Quran 16:43 By Allâh, We indeed sent (Messengers) to the nations before you (O Muhammad ), but Shaitân (Satan) made their deeds fair-seeming to them. So he (Satan) is their Wali (helper) today (i.e. in this world), and theirs will be a painful torment
Quran 27:24 “I found her and her people worshipping the sun instead of Allâh, and Shaitân (Satan) has made their deeds fair-seeming to them, and has barred them from (Allâh’s) Way, so they have no guidance,”
Quran 29:38 …. Shaitân (Satan) made their deeds fair-seeming to them, and turned them away from the (Right) Path, THOUGH THEY WERE INTELLIGENT.
Quran 43:37 And verily, they (Satans / devils) hinder them from the Path (of Allâh), but THEY THINK THAT THEY ARE GUIDED ARIGHT!
ii. And now few more verses, which Quran dedicates to our Ahle-kitab.
Quran 18:
101 (To) Those whose eyes had been under a covering from My Reminder (this Qur’ân), and who could not bear to hear (it).
102. Do then those who disbelieve think that they can take My slaves [i.e., the angels, Allâh’s Messengers, ‘Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), etc.] as Auliyâ’ (lords, gods, protectors, etc.) besides Me? Verily, We have prepared Hell as an entertainment for the disbelievers (in the Oneness of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism).
103. Say (O Muhammad ): “Shall We tell you the greatest losers in respect of (their) deeds?
104. “Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they thought that they were acquiring good by their deeds!
105. “They are those who deny the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of their Lord and the Meeting with Him (in the Hereafter). So their works are in vain, and on the Day of Resurrection, We shall not give them any weight.
106. “That shall be their recompense, Hell; because they disbelieved and took My Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and My Messengers by way of jest and mockery.
May God loves you and remove you from the effect of Satan and gives you the vision to see the Truth and make you a real follower of Jesus (pbuh) [not worshipper], and make you among one who submits to the will of One God of all human being (i.e. Muslim). So that you may not be among people who after doing all good deeds would be rejected by him (Jesus pbuh).
Matthew 7: 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: DEPART FROM ME, ye that work iniquity.
Comforter.
Dear readers (both Muslims and Christians who love truth and decency),
I am writing this response to the above M Comforter’s responses. As I already wrote my travel and other business events have caused my delay in response. Now again I will catch up with him in exposing Islamic mind. Readers, those of you who really had enough time and bothered to read his entire responses (by the way if you think his responses are too tedious, unintelligible, beating-around-the-bush type and make little sense in the end may I advice you to read Muhammad’s Quran and understand why Muslims think, read and write like that!) please be advised in this response I am picking up only a couple of the points in his responses so as to keep focus on subjects at hand and help you follow the mind of a Muslim and Islamic logic as clearly as possible.
In my response (41) I offered a decent way of dialoguing in pursuit of the truth concerning the true God to Mr. Muslim Comforter expecting him to respond like a civilized person. Unfortunately like a typical Muslim he did not like my advice. You can read my offer at my posting (41) and his responses at both (42) and (43). It appears to me that he is least bothered about the truth and at the same time all set out for indecency and stupidity. He is bent on calling the Holy Bible as ‘rubbish’ and took special pride in deriding the prophets of the Bible. Obviously this he has decided to do in his natural tendency which he acquired through Islamic influence. How can we expect anything different than this from Islam? In order to keep pace with him, at least to some extent, I have to come down to the level of his Islamic nature. I hope the readers can understand that by so doing I am only trying to get the message across to M Comforter’s mind which is conditioned by Islam. To be honest, I am uncomfortable to do this at the expense of hurting some of my very good Muslim friends’ religious sensitivities. Nevertheless, I am forced to do this for the sake of this typical Muslim arguer. I offer my apologies in advance to truth seeking and decency loving Muslims if they find my responses to M. Comforter as offensive to their religious sensitivities.
1. Muslims’ STUPID story
Once again it has become apparent as I have already pointed out that the typical Muslim minds such as Fais and M Comforter cannot find ‘stupid stories’ in God’s word the Bible like what we can see in Hadiths and Quran. But Muslims are desperate to find one. The question is how to find one in the Bible? The answer is simple: ‘use evil stupid Muslim mind’ or simply follow Muhammad. That’s how they finally found one ‘STUPID story’ that reflects the nature of Muslim mind. Funny thing is that the story itself came right out of their own corrupted minds, yet they blame Christians for it. This is ‘Islamic logic’ as one of the authors at this website explains! This is how Muslims grow in their STUPIDITY and HYPOCRISY. This should explain to the readers how some stupid Muslims who cannot find fault with God’s word try to find it in their own minds in order to blame the Bible and Christians! Most of the accusations of these STUPIDS against the Bible fall into this category. This is a classical example of their evil attacks against God’s truth.
If Mr. M Comforter still dreams that the ‘STUPID’ story he got from Fais is actually in the Bible let’s ask him: Mr. M Comforter (the true Muslim) please give us the details of your STUPID story in the Bible (O.T or N.T., the name of the book , the page number etc.). On the other hand, if you say that this is not in the Bible but only Christians believe this then I request you to give us the details of those Christians and references of those Christian sources that show your STUPID story.
Since M Comforter cannot even understand what I am asking he writes and writes without any relevant answer to these above questions like his wannabe prophet and continues to confirm his STUPIDITY and HYPOCRISY, which are the prevalent qualities of most of the Islam followers.
2. God is infinite
You wrote:
“I have already explained this on the first page i.e. comment 8. I’m re-pasting them here.
Regarding 1+1+1 is not=3????
a. So, 1x1x1=1
According to you, if we want to know the totality or sum we can multiply also. Great concept?
Suppose one person gives you Rupees one lakh on first visit, then one lakh on second visit, then one lakh on third visit. So when it comes to returning, you will give him one lakh, according to your method of totality, as 1x1x1=1. Great?
Or, suppose if he gives one lakh on first visit, then zero amount on second visit, then one lakh on third visit. So when it comes to returning, you will give him Zero. Because 1x0x1=0.
Poor fellow would have never imagined such supernatural mathematics.
Brother think twice before saying a thing, everything is not according to your intellect. There are certain rules, sense and logic.
b. you mean Father was an infinity, Jesus was an infinity and Holy Ghost was an infinity.
What do you mean by infinity? “
My response:
I feel sorry for myself because I assumed that you have some common sense. (Readers, please compare my following explanation with his above confusion. Here we get a classical example of Muslim intelligence)
If you are dealing with the things of the physical creation you follow the rules and logic that are tested and proved to be appropriate for the created things. Only STUPIDS use these rules and logic to measure the size, time, power and knowledge of the creator God. If the pagans want to know the size of ‘moon god’ scientists can provide it, but the size of the true God does not fall into the purview of human measurements. Therefore such questions about God are a clear indication of the nature of the Muslim mind.
(a) I wrote ‘God is infinite.’ Unfortunately I forgot the fact that I was addressing a Muslim mind. As a result I failed to add more details to it, some of which persons with commonsense could have easily understood.
‘Infinite’: ‘infinite’ is an adjective. It describes the quality of the noun it refers to. According to ‘Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English’ it has these meanings a) very great in amount or degree b) without limits in space or time.
Whether it is Oxford or Longman dictionaries or any other theological and philosophical dictionaries the basic meaning of the word ‘infinite’ is the opposite of ‘finite.’ ‘Finite’ means ‘having limits’ and ‘infinite’ means ‘without limits.’ This can be an attribute of the ‘self existing Being’ or a concept, but not a ‘real created thing/being.’ All created things are ‘finite.’ ‘God’ by definition is not a created being. He does not have limits like creation.
When I say ‘God is infinite’ I mean ‘God is without limits.’ ‘Without limits’ in what? God is limitless in His existence, nature, knowledge and power. But after hearing the statement ‘God is infinite’ only a Muslim can ask us ‘is God infinite in size or time or space?’ (Readers, please imagine how many questions this Muslim can have about God’s word the Bible and how valid those questions would be!)
(b) Quranic Allah maybe a mathematical one [1], but the biblical God is not. The biblical God is a composite one.
“The LORD our God is one (echad) LORD.” In Hebrew language there are more than one word available for the English word ‘one’: echad (compound unite) and yachid (absolute unite). Eg. “Husband and wife become one (echad) flesh (Genesis 2:24).” “One (echad) cluster of grapes (Numbers 13:23).” “His one/only (yachid) child (Judges 11:34).”
If the Muslim mind can see and understand the difference between the following two statements then they can understand the above. If not, no one can help them: (1) We are one (echad) as the citizens of India; (2) My friend has one (yachid) daughter.
The biblical God is one (echad—compound unite). There is a plurality within Him, but not outside of Him: God’s nature, God’s power, God’s Being are all part of Him. Yet He is ‘one’ in the sense of a composite unity. If Muslim mind cannot rise to the level of accepting/understanding this truth then that is their problem, but not God’s.
(c) Jesus: Jesus existed forever, without beginning, as God’s Word (Kalamullah/Logos), i.e. God’s living Word (but not as the written word, the Bible). God’s word is part of God’s Being. That word (Logos) took on human form and became as human being (John 1:1-14; Philippians 2:5-10). This is possible only for the True God, but not for the false ‘moon gods’ which is why Muslim mind find it hard to digest this truth and keeps coming back to ask questions like: God cannot be born, grow, eat, drink, sleep, pray, unaware of, die etc.(which we all agree). If Jesus is God how can he has all these? Yet Muslims think they are asking meaningful and intelligent questions!
According to Christian faith Jesus is ‘God-incarnate.’ The key to understand Jesus’ deity is to understand biblical ‘incarnation.’ This is explained in some of the articles on this website. According to biblical incarnation God remains God and at the same time took on human form and nature alongside of His divinity. Again this is only possible for the Almighty, but not to the false gods like ‘moon god.’ Sorry, M Comforter if you don’t understand this leave it. We can understand your Islamic limitations.
3. Muhammad’s fly advice
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said “If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease.”
In order to justify seventh century Arab babbler’s fly advice Muslims can go to any extent. Why? Because they adamantly convince themselves that he was a ‘prophet.’ When Muhammad the conman talked about a ‘curse’ and ‘blessing’ in his ignorance they try to help him by changing those words into ‘disease’ and ‘cure’ in order to gratify their convictions about Muhammad and his religion. Even in that they had to twist the language, scientific discoveries and even common sense. Readers, please read once again what Mr. M Comforter had written about this whole foolish advice and how desperately he is trying to justify his prophet. This way one can justify any foolish advice!
What is my contention here as far as Muhammad’s fly advice is concerned?
(a) In the first place Muhammad’s advice was to his immediate followers. How wise and appropriate was such an advice in the context of the seventh century Muslims of Arabia who lived in unhygienic surroundings from where flies would transport harmful bacteria into Muslims’ homes?
(b) In the superstitious Muslim world there is no lack of faithful fanatical followers to Muhammad who would emulate his lifestyle and advice to the letter. It goes without saying that there have been countless heroic Muhammad followers who might have followed Muhammad’s fly advice sincerely. Even if we turn a blind eye to the fact that flies carry millions of harmful bacteria, according to his prophet’s advice what kind of ‘blessing’ (healing) the poor Muslims who dipped the fly fully into their cup and drank got from the antibacterial material that washed into the drink from ONE filthy fly?
(c) Why do Muslims believe that a man who gave such a hazardous and foolish advice in his ignorance to his own followers was a true prophet, let alone being a final and greatest messenger from God?
(d) Why do Muslims need to change the words ‘curse’ and ‘blessing’ in Muhammad’s fly advice into ‘disease’ and ‘healing’ in order to explain it away to gullible fellow Muslims?
(e) What kind of nature Muslims display in trying to seek twenty first century research efforts illogically to justify Muhammad’s fly advice while the same research proves on many counts that his advice is irrational and hazardous to health?
(f) Whom to blame for the health problems of those Muslims who faithfully and blindly followed Muhammad’s advice all these centuries?
(e) Don’t you think that the following version, which is commonsensical unlike Muhammad’s advice, is many times better than the STUPID advice of prophet of Islam?
“If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should THROW the drink completely out for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease”
In the light of the above questions and their assumed answers the readers can decide for themselves what to call Muslims’ religion and their faith in Muhammad. Unfortunately even the 21st century educated Muslims think Muhammad is the true prophet and follow him sincerely.
“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man is he who listens to counsel.” (Holy Bible: Proverbs 12:15)
More to follow…
Adil
Dear M Comforter,
You wrote:
Now, regarding Bible. Christians believe it was revealed to it’s authors from God himself through another form of God i.e. holy spirit. And every word of it is word of God. And this is their holy book, something parallel to our Quran. But some Christians and even many scholars don’t believe this. Even authors of Bible don’t believe, except Paul (? a disciple) who never ever met Jesus in his life.
See what John said
John 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. 25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
See, here, John has written about himself as third person and saying he was true. Amazing?
John is trying to testify himself as true person; still he never said it was inspired to him.
See, what Luke is saying
Luke 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Even Luke said, he is presenting the heard version not inspired version. But Christians don’t believe.
Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph,…
See, Luke was not sure about his words. Here ‘as was supposed’ should not come from someone who was inspired, know and sure about what he was writing. You know in Malayalam and many other regional language translation, even bracket is not there, so ‘as was supposed’ became the word of God. And, contrary to this, scholars removed them from Revised standard version. Word of God? Gone?
See, Paul in other place also declared the opposite that his words are not holy. He said,
“2corinthians 11:16 I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. 17That which I speak, I speak [it] not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.”
and trying to be nice to his audience, he said,
“2corinthians 11: 1 I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me”
This is book of God but even God doesn’t know the fact e.g.
John6:19 So when they had rowed about five and TWENTY OR THIRTY furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
If John was INSPIRED, he should know exactly how far.
There are many many things in the Bible itself to prove it is not word of God. Do you know, your this Bible alleges prophet of raping, polytheism, incest etc. and God with many human qualities like tiring, forgetting, behaving like lion, behaving like drunkard etc. And even allege Jesus of many wrong things like calling his mother as ‘woman’, just as he used to call prostitute, calling his disciple ‘satan’ (devil or shaitan), calling others as ‘white sepulchers’, ‘generation of vipers’ etc. And having many materials of pornography even one chapter is dedicated to the same. Read this chapter – Ezekiel Ch 23.
Do, you still consider this book to be word of God or as we muslims believe, that this book was of God but has been corrupted by peoples.
Actually what you presented was not muslims arguments rather dialogue between two Christian mis-presenter and one pretending to be Muslim. And this type of scene is common in missionary agenda in form of books, audios and videos. So, I will take your question as Christian question and will present you the reply of a muslim to them and see the Truth.
Muslims’ arguments go something like this:
Muslim: Quran is perfect without changes and errors
Christian: I read the Quran and hadiths. As far as I can say, there are changes in the text and errors (grammatical, logical, scientific and historical) in the message of the Quran. This can be ascertained from the text of the Quran itself and also form the hadiths.
Muslim: I think you didn’t read my comment properly. I said ,” Quran is perfect without changes and errors ”. As far as hadith is concerned we have one of the most scientific and logical way, to get the Truth. I think you didn’t read your Bible which is full of rubbishes and contradictions.
Christian: How do you know there are no errors and changes in the Quran?
Muslims: Show me one error in Quran.
Christian: Mr. Sam has so many of them listed.
Muslim: O.K. give me one. If Mr. Sam could not understand, it is not the problem of Quran. And we have to see the context along with other verses of Quran to understand the further details.
Christians: So hadiths give us the real meaning and context of the Quran.
Muslims: Who said so? Hadith helps us in understanding the context and implementation of Quran.
Christian: Then hadiths should be more reliable than the Quran.
Muslim: What made you think so? Probably Paul? As for you, wordings of Paul is more important than Jesus, you think same for others. E.g. Jesus got circumcised and Paul stopped it and you follow him. Isn’t it?
Christian: According to your presentation the error free quality of the Quran is established by the error prone hadiths. However, the hadiths themselves don’t have that quality. How can anybody buy what the error prone hadiths establish about the Quran?
Muslims: This is your deception. How come you buy error-full bible, while you have problem with error-prone (but verified and filtered) hadiths to support understanding the context and implementation. Humans can do mistake, we accept and verify these mistakes of human but what about your God committing numerous mistakes in Bible. We don’t behave irrationally that if there is chance of mistake in something precious, we will discard them out. Rather we will verify and correct the problem. We want to cut out the tumor not the whole human being.
Einstein gave many theory, some of them wrong and some of them correct. Only because it was error prone, we should not have taken Einstein’s word? Brother, We have to verify and take the correct thing as we did in Einsteins’s case and so in Hadith.
Christian: …..???????! Perhaps this is called Islamic ‘rationality’ and ‘wisdom!’
Muslim : This is called as logic and true rationality and best of Wisdom.
My response:
As far as the ‘inspiration’ is concerned biblical inspiration and Quranic inspirations are two different things. There is very little common ground between them. For your information let me give you some of the details of that.
(a) Biblical Inspiration:
The Bible is God’s word. Here I will explain why I/Christians say so.
For Christians the Bible is God’s word. That does not mean that God has a physical body consisting of mouth, lips, vocal chords etc. or those words He spoke out just like the way we use words in our communications. The Bible is God’s word because its original sources/records were ‘inspired’ by God’s Sprit (cf. 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 2:21).
Inspiration is not revelation. ‘Revelation’ is the act of communicating divine knowledge with the help of God’s Spirit to the human mind. But ‘inspiration’ is the act of the same Spirit of God controlling or superintending those who make that knowledge known to others. In other words, God’s words are recorded for us through inspiration. The recorded divine knowledge could be about others/other things or about the writer himself. In this process of inspired recording what is paramount importance to us now? The persons who were inspired? Or The material they used to write down the scriptures? Or the material on which the scriptures were recorded? Or the symbols that were used for the scripture recording? None of them, because all of them are subject to disintegration. The message of the scriptures is what was given to us from our creator. That’s what the paramount importance to us when it comes to the process of inspiration. Inspiration terminates at the original recording. The materials of the original records were not ‘immortals.’ Although they were inspired they were subjected to disintegration and destruction. As a result the original records that were written thousands of years ago needed copies and later translations. Both copyists and translators were not ‘inspired’ as the writers of the originals were. However, what continues in the translations and copies of the originals is the inspired message that comprises of the divine law and truth. The Bible is God’s word because its original records were inspired by God’s Spirit and its message is the original message given by God.
Words spoken by Satan were recorded in the Bible, words spoken by false prophets, words spoken by the enemies of Christ, words spoken by liars were also recorded in the Bible and yet they are God’s words, not in the sense that He uttered them, but that He caused them to be recorded for our instruction through His inspiration.
Those who understand the biblical inspiration properly don’t get foolish questions. You asked a number of questions that show the lack of your understanding of the biblical inspiration. Get your understanding of the biblical inspiration straight first then you will understand how foolish the questions you raised above.
(b) Quranic inspiration
According to your own Muslim sources particularly the Hadiths the following is what we understand about the Quran, Muhammad and inspiration.
Muhammad was born and brought up in a pagan family, practices and environment. When he turned 40 he was visited by a terrifying spirit (originally Muhammad thought that it was the devil, but later he was convinced by his wife and wife’s relative as the angel Gabriel) first in a cave and later in different places in different ways which started to reveal to him Arabic poetry which Muslims consider now as God’s words. Muhammad in turn would recite those poems to his followers and the followers would memorize them and in some instances commit them to writing on different materials. Which were later collected and complied into one book by a man called Zaid during the first Kalifah after Muhammad’s death. It is also reported in Muslim sources that some of the followers of Muhammad had their own versions of Quran which differed from the official version. The first official version also got a revision during the third Kalifah as there had been many other conflicting version of the Quran. Once the second official Quran was officiated the other versions that were present with individual Muslims were collected, some by force, and were committed to flames.
(Readers, please be advised the above information is from Muslim sources.)
In the light of the above information the following are some of the concerns any thinking person could have:
i. Did God really send His angel to Muhammad?
ii. Was the spirit that came to Muhammad really the angel Gabriel?
iii. Doesn’t the way inspiration came upon Muhammad cast doubt on the authenticity of its source?
iv. Since Muhammad was not under inspiration while retelling the revealed poems to his followers, how can one be absolutely certain about its accuracy at all times?
v. Since Muhammad’s followers were not under inspiration how can one be absolutely certain of their faithful transmission of the poems that they heard from Muhammad by memorizing or writing down on materials given the human fallibility and imperfection?
vi. How can Muslims believe that the Quran which got several additions and deletions during its evolution is God’s word?
vii.How can anyone consider the Quran as God’s word when it doesn’t even provide the context, chronology, meaningful transition and cohesive meaning to its text as a whole?
viii.How can a book that heavily dependent on human interpretations and traditions (hadiths) even be considered as God’s word?
Please let us know why you think that Muhammad’s poetry called Quran is God’s word. Try to be precise and straight to the point without beating around the bush and dumping information from Islamic websites. That would be helpful to me and more so to the readers.
(c) Let’s look into your copycat dialoguing. I’ve made more meaningful for your sake.
Muslim: Quran is perfect without changes and errors.
Christian: I have read the Quran and hadiths. As far as I can say, there are changes in the text and errors (grammatical, logical, scientific and historical) in the message of the Quran. This can be ascertained from the text of the Quran itself and also form the hadiths.
Muslim: I think you didn’t read my comment properly. I said ,” Quran is perfect without changes and errors ”. As far as hadith is concerned we have one of the most scientific and logical way, to get the Truth. I think you didn’t read your Bible which is full of rubbishes and contradictions.
Christian: Please don’t get upset because I told you the truth. How do you know there are no errors and changes in the Quran?
Muslims: Show me one error in Quran.
Christian: Mr. Sam has so many of them listed. Like that many others also listed. I have collected quite a number of them.
Muslim: O.K. give me one. If Mr. Sam could not understand, it is not the problem of Quran. And we have to see the context along with other verses of Quran to understand the further details.
Christians: At the end of this dialogue I give you some errors in the Quran for your information. By the way the Quran is devoid of context to see and make some sense out of it. Is it because your Arabian Allah forgot about it or thought that it is not worthy of his inspiration or that’s the specialty of his revelations? I can understand the problem of the most important book of your religion. If others can’t understand what was written in the Arabian Allah’s gobbledygook book it is not the problem of the Arabian Allah, not the problem of MuhamMAD, nor even the problem of the Quran. But it is the problem of the faithful Muslims who desperately try to make some sense out of it. Why did your Arabian Allah forget in the first place to give any context to his saying in his important revelation? In fact, if someone reads just the Quran he will certainly loose his rationality and can’t make out from its text itself who is talking to whom and why and where. I guess that’s why Muslims came up with tons of STUPID stories to give some sense to the gobbledygook Quran. So hadiths give us the real meaning and context of the Quran.
Muslims: Who said so? Hadith helps us in understanding the context and implementation of Quran.
Christian: Sorry, your Muslim scholars say that the hadiths do more than just ‘helping us in understanding the context’ and implementation of the Quran. In fact Muslim scholars assure us that the Hadiths explain, and interpret the Quran (eg. “it is impossible to understand the Quran without reference to the Hadith”—Prof. Shahul Hameed). They even go to the extent of admitting the fact that without Hadiths no way of knowing the whole meaning of the Quran. Isn’t it interesting?! Then hadiths should be more reliable than the Quran although I know you choose to say otherwise in order to sell the Quran.
Muslim: What made you think so? Probably Paul? As for you, wordings of Paul is more important than Jesus, you think same for others. E.g. Jesus got circumcised and Paul stopped it and you follow him. Isn’t it?
Christian: Don’t get emotional. You Muslims already use little commonsense and on top of that if you get emotional you loose the remaining commonsense also. According to Islamic logic what Paul wrote in the Bible is only his words then it follows what Zaid wrote are Zaid’s words! This is very interesting. I thought Quran is just Muhammad’s poetry, but your logic seems to prove that it is Zaid’s book after all. According to your belief the invisible ‘error free’ quality of the Quran is established by the visible ‘error prone’ hadiths. However, the hadiths themselves don’t have that quality. How can anybody buy what the error prone hadiths establish about the Quran?
Muslims: This is your deception. How come you buy error-full bible, while you have problem with error-prone (but verified and filtered) hadiths to support understanding the context and implementation. Humans can do mistake, we accept and verify these mistakes of human but what about your God committing numerous mistakes in Bible. We don’t behave irrationally that if there is chance of mistake in something precious, we will discard them out. Rather we will verify and correct the problem. We want to cut out the tumor not the whole human being.
Einstein gave many theory, some of them wrong and some of them correct. Only because it was error prone, we should not have taken Einstein’s word? Brother, We have to verify and take the correct thing as we did in Einsteins’s case and so in Hadith. To put it simply this is what we Muslims believe: Quran is Allah’s words. For some reason our Allah forgot to make things clear in his book and Although Arabic is his mother tongue he gave his revelation with lots of confusions and contradictions. In order to clear all that mess our faithful Muslims came up with too many stupid stories. That’s why we had to come up with a strategy called ‘hadith science’ to find a solution to help solve our Allah’s mess. Basically what the hadith science does is this, First step–Take for granted that the Quran is from Allah therefore it doesn’t (shouldn’t) contain any errors. Second step—collect all the hadiths and through some irrational system of selection discard all that prove the errors of the Quran and somehow retain only those that seem to be clarifying the errors in the Quran and support Muhammad and other Islamic stuff.
Christian: …..???????! Perhaps this is called Islamic ‘rationality’ and ‘wisdom!’
Muslim : This is called as logic and true rationality and best of Wisdom.
Christian: If Arabian Allah could not save Muhammad from Islamic rationality how can he save faithful Muslims………..?
Some of the scientific Errors in the Quran:
1. Quran 37: 6-8 We have indeed decorated the lower heaven (sky) with beauty (in) the stars, (for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious Satans. So they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side.
2. Quran 36: 40 It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
3. Quran 96: 2 Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood
One of many contradictions in the Quran
1. Quran 02: 256 There is no Compulsion in religion….
Or
1. Quran 9: 29 Fight those who do not profess the true faith(Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.
More to follow…
Adil
In the name of Allah (God of all humanbeing), the Most Gracious and the Most Merciful.
Quran 17:110. Say (O Muhammad ): “Invoke Allâh or invoke the Most Beneficent (Allâh), by whatever name you invoke Him (it is the same), for to Him belong the Best Names. ….111. And say: “ALL THE PRAISES AND THANKS BE TO ALLÂH, Who has not begotten a son (nor an offspring), and Who has no partner in (His) Dominion, nor He is low to have a Walî (helper, protector or supporter). ……
Quran 18:17 ……He whom God, guides is rightly guided; but he whom God leaves to stray,- for him wilt thou find no protector to lead him to the Right Way.
After along time I got a reply from my brother, Adil ( a Trinitarian christian). I had almost lost hope but last night one of my friend called me and informed about this post of frustrations (from you) in the form of abuse and abuse and many illogical (? Common sense) comments on me, the muslim community, my beloved prophet Mohammad pbuh and even to God of all human being. From the very first comment, you have been abusive, but inshallah, still, I won’t do the same. But, will reply to you in the best manner and logical way, as I have been doing. Readers know my language and way of presnting the truth (as well as of yours). It is self evident if anybody go through our debate. May God make me better in my approach. All the goodness is only due to Allah and for all the wrongdoing it is only me who is responsible. May God forgive me for all my sins and don’t sacrifice any other innocent for my sins.
Your very first sentence was contradicting to your comments to follow, because it was no where related to truth and decency. But. Inshallah I promise to keep my comments clear, logical and decent (unless the literal topic is indecent).
As I commented before, your whole comments are around the three ways of getting out of scene .
1. Abuse and abuse .
2. Instead of dealing with the topic, counterquote and bombard. [Where is the answer of my questions posed to you and recollected (few of them) and presented to you again and again? Even two months were not enough? Extremely busy? Isn’t it? You have time to abuse in length (see the above comments nearly equal in length to my comment but you did nothing and Alhamdulillah I cleared everything) and no time to deal with the questions. Brother, I know and challenge that no body WITH THE LOGIC AND COMMON SENSE can answer them. You have to be supernatural and abusive to escape from them. Exactly as you have been.]
3. Playing with words and changing the meaning to just opposite of what it means.
All praise to Allah for selecting me here to expose the falsehood and presenting the Truth in the crystal clear way and making you resort to these frustrating ways of response without any decency and truth in them.
Yes, you offered me for being decent in dialogue. Alhamdulillah I have been decent throughout. Did I ever abuse Jesus (pbuh), or God or even christians as a whole. Yes, at couple of times I did tell about the wrong beliefs of Christians but even for that stupid parallel story, I did not take credit on myself, but supported the Truth in the decent way. Now regarding my response to your offer (which I gave in the last comment), I am pasting few lines to remind you the Truth (from comment 42)
“Alhamdulillah. I never went out of topic, it is you who are responsible for my response, short or lengthy. It is you who have been abusive and even if I said, it was just a counter. CONTROL YOURSELF, EVERYTHING WILL BE CONTROLLED.”
Now this (comment 44&45) is your response of my offer. You want me to silently listen to your lies and abuse. Isn’t it? My offer was straight forward. To repeat. . “CONTROL YOURSELF, EVERYTHING WILL BE CONTROLLED”.
Even after being thoroughly abusive from the first comment, you are presenting yourself to be decent and telling that you are feeling uncomfortable in abusing in this comment. Amazing lie? Brother, it is in your nerves to be abusive and illogical. Still, I don’t say that, it is due to christianity, rather you are like this. Why should I punish others for your sin. No religion teaches to be indecent even though in perverted form. All the religion is the same religion of God of Jesus and other prophets including Mohammad (pbut). And that is beautifully called in arabic as Islam (the religion of submission to only one TRUE God). According to this, the way of salvation is same for all human being whether came early or late in ths world. And the God, is of all human being. There is no concept of greek God or Arabian God or Vedic God or Biblical God in Islam. It is your misconception.
You said about me- “too tedious, unintelligible, beating-around-the-bush type and make little sense in the end”. I challenge you, to point out one of my comment which falls in any of these category. Keep in mind there are many peoples reading our comments and propbably most of them with comprehension. Tell me the point which you feel illogical and also Why? I assure you to give the readers the satisfactory explanation (Inshallah), if it is still not. Brother, you can’t lie (and allege) and escape like this.
One more point, you alleged me of deriding prophets. If you have the guts and even scarce of Truthfulness in you, show me where I insulted prophets. Rather, it opposite MOST of the time, when I am mentioning the names of prophets, I am sending God’s blessing on them (in the form of pbuh or pbut i.e. peace be upon him or them; I asked for God’s forgiveness if I missed in some instances ). Yes, I have mentioned that Bible has insulted many prophets not me. I should not be held responsible for the sins of the authors of Bible. E.g.
i. Regarding prophet Noah: Genesis 9:21And he drank of the wine, and was DRUNKEN; and he was UNCOVERED within his tent.
ii. Regarding Prophet David:2 Samuel 6:20Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who UNCOVERED HIMSELF TO DAY IN THE EYES OF THE HANDMAIDS OF HIS SERVANTS, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!
iii. Regarding Prophet Isiah Isiah 20:3And the LORD said, Like as my servant ISAIAH HATH WALKED NAKED and barefoot three years [for] a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia; 4So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, NAKED and barefoot, even WITH [THEIR] BUTTOCKS UNCOVERED, to the shame of Egypt.
iv. Regarding Prophet Lot : Genesis 19:33And they made their father drink wine that night: and THE FIRSTBORN WENT IN, AND LAY WITH HER FATHER; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 34And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, [and] lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 35And THEY MADE THEIR FATHER DRINK WINE THAT NIGHT ALSO: AND THE YOUNGER AROSE, AND LAY WITH HIM; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
v. Regarding Prophet Israel: Genesis 35:22And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben WENT AND LAY WITH Bilhah his father’s concubine: and Israel heard [it]. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:
vi. Regarding Prophet Judah: Genesis 38: 15When Judah saw her, he thought her [to be] an harlot; because she had covered her face. 16And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, LET ME COME IN UNTO THEE; (for he knew not that she [was] his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me? 17And he said, I will send [thee] a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give [me] a pledge, till thou send [it]? 18And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that [is] in thine hand. And he gave [it] her, and CAME IN UNTO HER, and she conceived by him.
And many more.
May God bless all of his prophets . Do you think, these rubbishes suit Prophets. Even, regarding the language of Jesus like calling his disciples and mother with offending titles can’t be acceptable. How would you justify such rubbishes in this word of God.
Now regarding your allegations:
A. Regarding STUPID story:
Brother Fais brought a stupid story and I supported that this story is stupid and any story parallel to this can be only stupid. Here it goes: “…All the bad people of this city stood before the judge and claimed “oh just judge, we know we are bad people and we have done bad things, but please! do not punish us let us go! because there is one among us in our city who has never done anything bad in his whole life. infact, he has always told us to stay away from bad things, but we never listened, so please punish this man instead!!!” And so, upon hearing this the judge had this goodly man quite immediately arrested and and put infront of a firing squad and given a gruesome penalty of death. The bad bad people were let go in return, and the bad people returned to their bad ways. THE END! : oh, did I mention the good man was the son of the judge?”
Now the parallel story which Muslims (and all others with logic) consider stupid as well. Here it goes.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave his only BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” KJV
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life”. RSV
Do you know that this is the most famous verse of Bible and has been translated in almost all the languages known to Christians on Earth? One amazing thing, you see the the comment in RSV (latest version), here word BEGOTTEN doesnot exist any more. Amazing, these christian scholars took the “begotten claim” of the God (or John) from the word of God (Bible). Jesus is no more begotten.
I think it is clear. If you need to have more detailed story of God punishing his only son for the sins of peoples you read the verses from arrest to the grave i.e. crucifixion (or, crucifiction) in the different Gospels in detail. If you need my help tell me I’ll quote you to them.
B. God is infinite
i. Brother we have commonsense not supernatural sense. Give the logic in common terms not supernaturally. I have been telling you repeatedly. And how many times will you assume us to have commonsense (?supernatural) and forget. We don’t have your type of common sense. Don’t forget again.
You gave the logic of integer and multiplication and I just tried to explain them logically. It is your problem . Never in your life give these logic of integer again to any innocent souls. If it comes in your mind just remember my logical explanation & stop this illogical propaganda.
ii. So, according to you, concept of infinity doesnot set to any created thing but to God only (uncreated). Isn’t it? So, tell the physicist and mathematician to avoid this term infinity for created materials of this world and universe.
iii. So, according to you “God is infinite & it means God is without limits”. So, logically, Jesus could not be a God as he had many limitations e.g. of knowledge, of number, of time etc. Or, God was fooling people when such limitations were attributed to Jesus in Bible.
iv. Echad or composite one: See these few verses where Echad can be the “numeral unity”.
Genesis 2:21 And LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one (echad) of his ribs.
HOW MANY RIBS? MAYBE GOD TOOK A SINGLE RACK OF RIBS (AS YOU WOULD RECEIVE A RACK OF BARBECUE RIBS IN A RESTARAUNT).
Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one (echad)of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
HOW MANY MOUNTAINS DID ABRAHAM GO TO?
Exodus 25:19 And make one (echad) cherub on the one (different word) end and the other cherub on the other end.
HOW MANY CHERUBS ON ONE SIDE?
Leviticus 16:5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for sin offering, and one (echad) ram for a burnt offering.
HOW MANY RAMS? MAYBE GOD MEANT A “WHOLE HERD”? HE SAID ONE; TRINITARIANS CLAIM THAT ONE IS SUPPOSED TO MEAN A GROUP.
Numbers 10:4 And if they blow but with one (echad) trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee.
WERE THEY SUPPOSED TO BLOW WITH AN ORCHESTRA OF TRUMPETS IN UNISON?
Details of your false claim has been exposed by many Christians (non-Trinitarians). Here is the link to the website from where I took the above quotations.
http://www.whoisjesus.com/echad.html
v. So, according to you Jesus had no beginning. So what about Mary giving birth to Jesus. (?lie or disguise). What about these verses :
Hebrews 2: 17 Therefore he had to be MADE LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN EVERY RESPECT, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people.
Acts 2: 22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN ATTESTED TO YOU by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—
How can he be made, when he was already there. Whole old testament doesnot have a single verse directly telling about Jesus to be present at that time.
God incarnate: you said-“ According to biblical incarnation God remains God and at the same time took on human form and nature alongside of His divinity. Again this is only possible for the Almighty, but not to the false gods like ‘moon god.’”
So, in other words they were one and same. Isn’t it? So, according to you when your Jesus died God also died for 3 days and 3 nights as they were one and the same. Isn’t it? Who was controlling the universe at that time? Yes, it can be possible for Almighty to do anything but certainly not cheating. We don’t think God can do this (cheating).
C. Muhammad’s (pbuh) fly advice:
I think I replied to each and every point of yours. Be specific and ask me if you couldnot understand anything. Re-read them for better understanding and be aware in future, before you misquote them to innocent souls.
Few points:
i. Is “disease” not a “curse” or “healing” a “blessing”? Why can’t you accept this while you have no problem in accepting an illogical thing like: “Word”(logos or plan) to be “flesh” (literally “meat” instead of gettng materialized or accomplishment of plan). Amazing prejudices?
ii. YOUR ILLOGICAL version of hadith :
“If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should THROW the drink completely out for one of its wings has a disease and the OTHER HAS THE CURE FOR THE DISEASE”
What is the use of the words “OTHER HAS THE CURE FOR THE DISEASE” in your supernatural version of this hadith? I have already explained the details and beauty and commandments of this hadith. Please re-read them.
“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man is he who listens to counsel.” (Holy Bible: Proverbs 12:15)
D. Biblical inspiration:
In the last comments, I gave you few of the logical proofs, why present day Bible is not word of God. I am pasting my comment from comment 42- “Do, you still consider this book to be word of God or as we muslims believe, that this book was of God but has been corrupted by peoples.”
You pasted all my quotations and gave your reasoning regarding your bible.
You said:
“For Christians the Bible is God’s word.”
“The Bible is God’s word because its original sources/records were ‘inspired’ by God’s Sprit (cf. 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 2:21). ”
“The materials of the original records WERE NOT ‘IMMORTALS.’ Although they were inspired they were SUBJECTED TO DISINTEGRATION AND DESTRUCTION.”
“The Bible is God’s word because its ORIGINAL records were inspired by God’s Spirit and its message is the ORIGINAL message given by God. ”
Don’t you bahave like muslim here, that the original was of God but later it was corrupted and probably the present day Bible is no more the God’s word. Or, the Word of God but corrupted (nauzbillah) . Alhamdulillah. May God guide you further to the Truth.
If you don’t agree, explain me your state and give me the logical (not the supernatural) reply of my few questions on contradictions in Bible.
E. Quranic inspiration:
Don’t beat around the bushes. Quote me the references and it’s twisted interpretation. Inshallah, your misconception will be cleared once and forever (or atleast you will be exposed). Islamic concept has been very clear and even I have given you a glimpse of that. If you have any problem in understanding them, ask me, don’t give the misinterpretation of Mr. Sam or like peoples to me. Quote me the authentic sources and get your facts cleared ( inshallah). I don’t like this type of illogical presentation. Talk logically with proofs otherwise keep quiet .
F. Copycat dialoguing:
Muslim: Quran is perfect without changes and errors.
Christian: I have read the Quran and hadiths. As far as I can say, there are changes in the text and errors (grammatical, logical, scientific and historical) in the message of the Quran. This can be ascertained from the text of the Quran itself and also form the hadiths.
Muslim: I think you didn’t read my comment properly. I said ,” Quran is perfect without changes and errors ”. As far as hadith is concerned we have one of the most scientific and logical way, to get the Truth. I think you didn’t read your Bible which is full of rubbishes and contradictions.
Christian: Please don’t get upset because I told you the truth. How do you know there are no errors and changes in the Quran?
Muslims: Show me one error in Quran.
Christian: Mr. Sam has so many of them listed. Like that many others also listed. I have collected quite a number of them.
Muslim: O.K. give me one. If Mr. Sam could not understand, it is not the problem of Quran. And we have to see the context along with other verses of Quran to understand the further details.
Christians: At the end of this dialogue I give you some errors in the Quran for your information. By the way the Quran is devoid of context to see and make some sense out of it. Is it because your Arabian Allah forgot about it or thought that it is not worthy of his inspiration or that’s the specialty of his revelations? I can understand the problem of the most important book of your religion. If others can’t understand what was written in the Arabian Allah’s gobbledygook book it is not the problem of the Arabian Allah, not the problem of MuhamMAD, nor even the problem of the Quran. But it is the problem of the faithful Muslims who desperately try to make some sense out of it. Why did your Arabian Allah forget in the first place to give any context to his saying in his important revelation? In fact, if someone reads just the Quran he will certainly loose his rationality and can’t make out from its text itself who is talking to whom and why and where. I guess that’s why Muslims came up with tons of STUPID stories to give some sense to the gobbledygook Quran. So hadiths give us the real meaning and context of the Quran.
Muslims: Regarding Quran and it’s context and other beauty I already explained to you in detail in comment 43 -1 . I suspect you are suffering from dyslexia (reading disability). I even gave demonstration, quotationwise. If you have any problem, ask me. Don’t behave like this, as if you have not seen them. Read them properly and ask me for your doubt and never misquote them again to any innocent soul. Regarding Allah, I already told, He is God of all human being, there is no question of Arabian or Greek Allah in Islam. If you have such misconception, Islam doesn’t support this. If you have any references with twisted interpretation, tell me, I will straighten them, inshallah. Regarding hadith, Who said it gives REAL MEANING to Quran? Hadith helps us in understanding the context and implementation of Quran. Yes, it is difficult to understand few topics where it needs context and it’s implementation by our prophet (pbuh). But majority of them are very clear and few of them needs explanation and contextual study and Quran informs us that those who have deviation in their heart , follow them , misquote them and try to create fitna, as you are trying here. You have quoted few of them from Mr. Sam. Inshallah, I will clear your misconception. This is not my saying rather Quran itself says so-
Quran 3:6 “It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad) the Book (this Qur’ân). In it are Verses that are ENTIRELY CLEAR, they are the foundations of the Book; and OTHERS NOT ENTIRELY CLEAR. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allâh. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord.” And none receive admonition except men of understanding.”
It is also advised in Quran to ask for help if you don’t know.
Quran 16:43 … So ask of those who know the Scripture, if you know not.
Christian: Sorry, your Muslim scholars say that the hadiths do more than just ‘helping us in understanding the context’ and implementation of the Quran. In fact Muslim scholars assure us that the Hadiths explain, and interpret the Quran (eg. “it is impossible to understand the Quran without reference to the Hadith”—Prof. Shahul Hameed). They even go to the extent of admitting the fact that without Hadiths no way of knowing the whole meaning of the Quran. Isn’t it interesting?! Then hadiths should be more reliable than the Quran although I know you choose to say otherwise in order to sell the Quran.
Muslim: I also said so, hadith explains the quran (through the proper knowledge of context) and interpret the Quran (by seeing the implementation of Quran by our Prophet, pbuh). And if some body says “that without Hadiths no way of knowing the WHOLE meaning of the Quran”, it is also true, because WHOLE quran includes both clear and contextual verses. But, saying that hadiths give REAL MEANING to Quran, is not correct. Don’t create fitna by misquoting. And Alhamdulillah we have scientific way to filter out the hadiths which you lack even for your Bible.
What made you think so? Probably Paul? As for you, wordings of Paul is more important than Jesus, you think same for others. E.g. Jesus got circumcised and Paul stopped it and you follow him. Isn’t it?
Christian: Don’t get emotional. You Muslims already use little commonsense and on top of that if you get emotional you loose the remaining commonsense also. According to Islamic logic what Paul wrote in the Bible is only his words then it follows what Zaid wrote are Zaid’s words! This is very interesting. I thought Quran is just Muhammad’s poetry, but your logic seems to prove that it is Zaid’s book after all. According to your belief the invisible ‘error free’ quality of the Quran is established by the visible ‘error prone’ hadiths. However, the hadiths themselves don’t have that quality. How can anybody buy what the error prone hadiths establish about the Quran?
Muslims: Who is getting emotional? This is your deception. Don’t beat around the bushes. I have already told regarding Quran and it’s preservation and given you a link where I debated on this issue. If you believe in Mr. Paul or Mr. Sam more than Jesus then you are bound to have problems. You will follow Paul and forget Jesus (as I mentioned above) and for knowning the Islam you believe in the satanic inspiration of your mentor Mr. Sam that Zaid wrote the Quran by himself. Brother we have hadiths where it is mentioned prophet used to dictate to the scribes for writing the Quran and will crosscheck and position the verses in Quran. And Zaid was only a scribe. And after the departure of prophet (pbuh) when Caliph Abubakar collected the Quran on paper he made him (Zaid) incharge of scribes and he collected, as it was on stones, leaves, papers, bones etc, but most importantly from memorization. If Mr. Sam gets such inspiration, it is his problem. Next time if you say, don’t beat around bushes and bring the the references from authentic hadiths not from inspiration of Mr. Sam.
As I mentioned above, we have filtered hadiths to know the facts . By the way how come you buy error-full bible, while you have problem with error-prone (but verified and filtered) hadiths to support understanding the context and implementation. Humans can do mistake, we accept and verify these mistakes of human but what about your God committing numerous mistakes in Bible. We don’t behave irrationally that if there is chance of mistake in something precious, we will discard them out. Rather we will verify and correct the problem. We want to cut out the tumor not the whole human being.
Einstein gave many theory, some of them wrong and some of them correct. Only because it was error prone, we should not have taken Einstein’s word? Brother, We have to verify and take the correct thing as we did in Einsteins’s case and so in Hadith . I think you need a lecture on science of hadith, Inshallah. (first of all let me have your backlog cleared, then we will see this also)
Christian: …..???????! Perhaps this is called Islamic ‘rationality’ and ‘wisdom!’
Muslim : This is called as logic and true rationality and best of Wisdom.
Christian: If Arabian Allah could not save Muhammad from Islamic rationality how can he save faithful Muslims………..?
Muslim: I already told you, we don’t believe in, Allah as arabian or greek. Neither in any human God or son God or moon God or monkey God, It is your misconception. Don’t try to impose them on us.To repeat, don’t beat around the bushes, you can’t simply say about Muhammad (pbuh) or anybody to be irrational (as you have been doing till now) and go away. If you say so blindly, I have no hezitation in calling you an irration, illogical and perverted liar. But at the same time I pray God to guide you to the Truth.
G. Supposed scientific errors in the Quran:
i. Let me quote from Mohsin Khan
Quran 37:
6. Verily! We have adorned the near heaven with the stars (for beauty).
7. And to guard against every rebellious devil.
8. They cannot listen to the higher group (angels) for they are pelted from every side.
My response:
What is the scientific error here? Till now, if science couldn’t understand devils or angels, it doesn’t mean it is scientific error. So, “devil carrying Jesus from mountain to mountain and tempting” is a scientific error of Bible?
ii. Quran 36: 40 It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
My response: Here it is being said about Sun and Moon to be rotating in their own axis, while night and coming after each other due to them. And it is repeated that sun and moon are rotating in their own orbit, as have been repeated in many verses of Quran. The verses below are self explanatory e.g.
Quran 31:29. See you not (O Muhammad Sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe Wa Sallam) that Allâh merges the night into the day (i.e. the decrease in the hours of the night are added in the hours of the day), and merges the day into the night (i.e. the decrease in the hours of day are added in the hours of night), and has subjected the sun and the moon, each running its course for a term appointed; and that Allâh is AllAware of what you do.
Quran 55:5 The sun and the moon run on their fixed courses (exactly) calculated with measured out stages for each (for reckoning, etc.)
Quran 13:2… He has subjected the sun and the moon (to continue going round)! Each running (its course) for a term appointed….
Can you show one versein Quran (to support this), where it is written day and night is rotating on it’s own axis as I have quoted for Sun and Moon. It is your lack of understanding , not the sientific error.
iii. Quran 96: 2 Has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood).
My response: Here, the arabic word is “alaqa” which means clotted blood, something which sticks or leech like substance. It sets well to all the meaning, physiologically it (zygote or early fetus) is a leech like substance sucking maternal blood and morphologically, it looks as if something has stuck to the wall of uterus and and of the look of something like clot of blood. And when it is aborted it looks nothing more than clot of blood. Ask the female who had abortion, to clear your fact.
Where is the scientific error?
iv. One of many contradictions in the Quran :
Quran 02: 256 There is no Compulsion in religion….
Or
Quran 9: 29 Fight those who do not profess the true faith(Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.
My response: In Muslim ruled state, compulsory taxes are known by two names “Zakat” and “Jizyah”. “Zakat” is for believer and “Jizyah” is for disbeliever, untill he believes in Islam. For collecting that, force is advised. I think even now it is the same. Government can arrest even the likes of minister for the same. And Caliph Abubakar (after the deathof Prophet pbuh, had waged war against muslims who were not giving zakat). So, to use force against disbelievers for the tax doesn’t have any contradiction with compulsion on belief. Yes it may sound little fishy because of the word disbeliever, Jizyah and force. And the moment he accepts Islam he will not have to give Jizyah but Zakat and should be punished by th authority for the same.
Where is the scientific error or contradiction?
As I told you before, I repeat again that Quran is a book, which is free from contradictions. Even if it is named in hundreds on Mr. Sam’s website, it is not the contradiction rather quotation out of context or lack of understanding of Mr. Sam (unintentional or intentional), as you have seen in these examples.
I want to repeat, I have cleared almost all your objections, why don’t you start answering my questions. I have suggestion for making good use of time. If you abuse once, I think it will do, why wasting so much time and space for repeating the same in every other paragraph. Better use these time to clarify your stand. Because, I have given logical interrogation to almost all the aspect of Christianity from the corruption of Bible, to humanity of Jesus (pbuh) in my previous comments. Not answering them and escaping swiftly may give a negative impression of yours to the readers esp. when the subject is a preacher. You already know my common sense (logical type) so next time don’t expect me to understand your level of commonsense (supernatural type). And please don’t forget it. Because it is you who will forget, but I will get the abusing.
May God guide you and me to the Truth.
Well said “COMFORTER”…
Truth prevails and none is hurt…
TO the christian brothers..Bible clearly mentions as “Seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.”
[The Bible, Matthew 13:13]
To those who blindly follows the preaching churches not the bible..
My dear friend Muslim Comforter,
In your response instead of going straight to issues at hand you made a detour and came up with quite a number of claims and complaints. Let’s see how far they are legitimate and acceptable. Here are some of them…
Your wrote:
“I want to repeat, I have cleared almost all your objections, why don’t you start answering my questions.”
My answer:
Fantastic! (Readers, I hope you can understand why he is still a Muslim. He thinks he cleared all the objections). Sure friend, I will start answering as if you couldn’t see some of the answers I have already posted. But first let us see if you have really cleared ‘almost all the objections’ and questions I raised. You made a bold statement and let the readers see whether you measure up to your own statement. Be patient…
You wrote:
“…this post of frustrations (from you) in the form of abuse and abuse and many illogical (? Common sense) comments on me, the muslim community, my beloved prophet Mohammad pbuh and even to God of all human being. From the very first comment, you have been abusive…I have been decent throughout…Did I ever abuse Jesus (pbuh), or God or even Christians as a whole”
My answer:
“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man is he who listens to counsel.” (Holy Bible: Proverbs 12:15)
Just by blaming others ‘abusive and illogical’ and ‘abusive and illogical’ again and again will not justify your own abusive comments and illogical beliefs and answers. By this cheap trick you can’t mislead the readers to accept your repeated ‘abuses’ and ‘illogical’ convictions. Please face the reality. Don’t try to hide your face by throwing mud at others. By the way, readers are wise enough to understand who is frustrated here and for what reasons.
If you think writing comments such as “it is in your nerves to be abusive and illogical,” “the present day Bible is no more the God’s word,” “This is your deception,” “you believe in the satanic inspiration of your mentor Mr. Sam” “Bible is rubbish” etc. is not abusive language then may I ask you whether it is the Islamic mannered language?
You believe that Muhammad is a prophet of God. I don’t. If I address Muhammad other than what you believe that is abuse for you. I agree! In the same way, I believe Jesus is God’s incarnation. You don’t. If you address him other than what I believe that is abuse for me. Accept this or correct your comments. This is simple logic. You have been complaining pathetically about logic. If you can’t understand this, then, what is the definition of your ‘logic’?
According to your ‘logic’ and ‘commonsense’ writing about others like, “your lies and lies”, “every deception of yours”, “you did your hard work to save your skin” and many others is not abuse! Right?
You abused God’s word (the Bible) by saying it is ‘rubbish’
You abused Lord Jesus Christ as only a man but not God
You abused Apostle Paul by ridiculing the scripture he brought from God.
You abused Christians by accusing them of believing false teachings.
You abused Bro. Sam Shamoun by many different name calling.
You abused me with many accusations, but for all that I forgive you before my God.
Yet in your Islamic sincerity you claim ‘I have been decent throughout.’ (Readers, please note that this is the truthfulness of this faithful Muslim! This is how Muslims deceive themselves and other gullible people. At best we can conclude this is what the Muslim decency means!)
In response to what you did, all that I did was to stoop down to your level and called your prophet ‘MuhamMAD,’ although it was not my personal opinion. We see this fact in Muhammad’s life as well as in his own words about himself. (Readers, please read this yourself and see how this Muslims-believed-prophet was at least for some time behaved like a crazy person under the influence of Satan. (1) Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 400 (2) “There was no one of God’s creation more hateful to me than a poet or a madman; I (Muhammad) could not bear to look at either of them. I said to myself, “Your humble servant (meaning himself) is either a poet or a madman, but Quraysh shall never say this of me. I shall take myself to a mountain crag, hurl myself down from it, kill myself, and find relief in that way” The History of al-Tabari, Volume VI, Muhammad at Mecca, translated and annotated by W. Montgomery Watt and M.V. McDonald [State University of New York Press, Albany, 1988, p. 71); I called the Quran as ‘gobbledygook.’ Again it’s only stating the fact as ugly as it is. (Just to confirm what I say here, let any person take the Quran in any language in the world, including Arabic, and give it to a non Muslim, who’s thinking is not influenced by Islamic teachings, and ask him to read it and then take the opinion of that person about Quran! Readers, if you read the Quran in a language you can understand please read it with neutral attitude and see yourself what I am saying)
I offered a better way of dialoguing, but you declined and now started to complain! Don’t be childish. Be wise. If you want a meaningful, honest and scholarly dialogue then don’t attack the Bible, the Lord Jesus Christ, Apostel Paul and believing Christians. If you do you will get a fitting response. That’s all I can assure you. Decision is up to you. In your last post you wrote something appreciable: “May God make me better in my approach.” Amen! Friend. That’s what I wish for you.
You complained:
“Playing with words and changing the meaning to just opposite of what it means.” “I will expose your lies and supernatural language where a “superlative” degree is not superlative rather “comparative”, all doesn’t mean all, “death ” doesn’t mean death rather growing and all and all.”
My response:
Quran says Allah is the best of deceivers (Allahu khayru al-makireena)– S. 3:54; cf. 8:30
Quran says Allah cheats (wahuwa khadiaauhum)—Sura 4:142
Quran says Allah made many Jinns and men for hell—Sura 7:179
When you came up with unconvincing explanations about the Quranic Allah’s character as portrayed in the above verses and tried desperately to make the readers to believe that the meaning of the above verses is exactly the opposite of what they say I should accept all that crap, right(?), As if you are engaged in an intelligent exercise. But if I tried to explain in a similar manner the meanings of the Biblical verses you whine and complain! Talk about double standard.
[Readers, please go through some of his previous posting and see how Mr. M Comforter argues vainly and tortuously to prove that Allah is not the best of deceivers (exactly the opposite of what the Quran says) and Allah does not cheat (again exactly opposite of what the Quran says) and Allah has not made men for hell (which is exactly the opposite of what the Quran says). You decide who is “playing with words and changing the meaning to just opposite to what it means.” He complained that I did this while he himself fits in his description very well. Please you decide who the hypocrite is here.]
You wrote:
“One more point, you alleged me of deriding prophets. If you have the guts and even scarce of Truthfulness in you, show me where I insulted prophets. Rather, it opposite MOST of the time, when I am mentioning the names of prophets, I am sending God’s blessing on them (in the form of pbuh or pbut i.e. peace be upon him or them; I asked for God’s forgiveness if I missed in some instances ). Yes, I have mentioned that Bible has insulted many prophets not me. I should not be held responsible for the sins of the authors of Bible. E.g.
i. Regarding prophet Noah: Genesis 9:21And he drank of the wine, and was DRUNKEN; and he was UNCOVERED within his tent.
ii. Regarding Prophet David:2 Samuel 6:20Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who UNCOVERED HIMSELF TO DAY IN THE EYES OF THE HANDMAIDS OF HIS SERVANTS, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!
iii. Regarding Prophet Isiah Isiah 20:3And the LORD said, Like as my servant ISAIAH HATH WALKED NAKED and barefoot three years [for] a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia; 4So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, NAKED and barefoot, even WITH [THEIR] BUTTOCKS UNCOVERED, to the shame of Egypt.
iv. Regarding Prophet Lot : Genesis 19:33And they made their father drink wine that night: and THE FIRSTBORN WENT IN, AND LAY WITH HER FATHER; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 34And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, [and] lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 35And THEY MADE THEIR FATHER DRINK WINE THAT NIGHT ALSO: AND THE YOUNGER AROSE, AND LAY WITH HIM; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
v. Regarding Prophet Israel: Genesis 35:22And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben WENT AND LAY WITH Bilhah his father’s concubine: and Israel heard [it]. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:
vi. Regarding Prophet Judah: Genesis 38: 15When Judah saw her, he thought her [to be] an harlot; because she had covered her face. 16And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, LET ME COME IN UNTO THEE; (for he knew not that she [was] his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me? 17And he said, I will send [thee] a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give [me] a pledge, till thou send [it]? 18And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that [is] in thine hand. And he gave [it] her, and CAME IN UNTO HER, and she conceived by him.
And many more.
May God bless all of his prophets . Do you think, these rubbishes suit Prophets. Even, regarding the language of Jesus like calling his disciples and mother with offending titles can’t be acceptable. How would you justify such rubbishes in this word of God.”
My response:
Apart from the fact that your above quotations and comments show perfectly your understanding and reasoning power, let me show you how pathetically you are trying to show that God’s word i.e the Bible, is not God’s word, but Muhammad’s poetry is God’s word. I’ll address each one by quoting your words and followed by my answer to expose your unsuccessful wicked attempt to malign God’s word.
i. “Regarding prophet Noah: Genesis 9:21And he drank of the wine, and was DRUNKEN; and he was UNCOVERD within his tent.”
What’s the problem you have if God revealed the actual status of Noah when he had drunk wine, that too in his tent? By the way, this happened more than five thousand years ago. It is commonsensical to think that in those days people used to dress differently than now, particularly when people were inside their tents. It is in this context we should understand that Noah had drunk wine and become unconscious. When was ‘alcohol’ forbidden even according to your Islam? Your own hadiths reveal your best-example-prophet Muhammad drank alcohol sometimes before finally he prohibited it in the name of Allah (Muslim-Drinks-3753: ”We were with the Prophet of Allah, and He was thirsty, and a man said: O prophet of Allah, Do you want to drink wine? Prophet of Allah said: Yes. The Man went to get the wine. The Prophet of Allah said: Make it Intoxicated. And He (Muhammad) Drank”). Maybe you don’t like to read such information because you get hurt in your feelings and try to convince yourself saying it is ‘unacceptable’ or some such silly excuse! That is understandable for us. If Muhammad had done it, that is ok for you. But if somebody three thousand years prior to Muhammad did it and became uncovered in his tent and then if it was quoted in the Bible you got a big problem! Amazing!! Thanks for your power of understanding the Bible. Is it not hypocrisy?!
ii. “Regarding Prophet David:2 Samuel 6:20Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who UNCOVERED HIMSELF TO DAY IN THE EYES OF THE HANDMAIDS OF HIS SERVANTS, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!”
Again you show your reading skills! Who said the above quote in 2 Samuel 6:20? His disgruntled and arrogant wife ‘Michal’ said that. She said these words to put him down for what he did before the Lord. In her wickedness she exaggerated the way King David celebrated before the ark of the Lord. The Bible records David’s response to this allegation, “So David said to Michal, ‘It was before the Lord, who chose me above your father and above all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the Lord, over Israel’ therefore I will celebrate before the Lord. And I will be more lightly esteemed than this and will be humble in my own eyes, but with the maids of whom you have spoken, with them I will be distinguished.’ And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death.” (2 Samuel 6:21-23).
How about your Muhammad? Look at your own Quran’s record of what has been said of him: “And they say: “O you (Muhammad) to whom the Dhikr (the Qur’an) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man. Why do you not bring angels to us if you are of the truthful ones?” S. 15:6 Hilali-Khan. The so-called Allah’s word records that Muhammad was declared by others as a MAD man. If you see a similar thing (Michal’s saying about David) you ‘think’ it’s unacceptable for God’s word to contain that. In the same breath you try to convince yourself and other Muslims that there is no problem to have something like that in the Quran! Amazing logic and hypocrisy!!
iii. “Regarding Prophet Isiah: (Isiah 20:3) And the LORD said, Like as my servant ISAIAH HATH WALKED NAKED and barefoot three years [for] a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia; 4So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, NAKED and barefoot, even WITH [THEIR] BUTTOCKS UNCOVERED, to the shame of Egypt.”
In the Bible many times God used his prophets to proclaim His message by words as well as by their actions as the illustration of the prediction that would follow. Here God spoke to Isaiah and told him to become a living illustration of His coming judgment on the Egyptians by walking naked and barefoot. Here the sackcloth (Heb saq, hairy mantle) refers to a coarse outer garment that would go over an undergarment, or tunic. The prophet went about barefoot and naked (in his undergarment) as a shocking means of gaining the attention of the people to the severity of his prediction. Looks like Mr. M Comforter has some objections if God orders His prophets to do what He wanted them to do, but it is ok for him if Satan does something like that in Muhammad’s Quran (Sura 7:27–“O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their SHAME: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.” Isn’t it amazing and hypocritical?
iv. “Regarding Prophet Lot : Genesis 19:33And they made their father drink wine that night: and THE FIRSTBORN WENT IN, AND LAY WITH HER FATHER; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 34And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, [and] lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 35And THEY MADE THEIR FATHER DRINK WINE THAT NIGHT ALSO: AND THE YOUNGER AROSE, AND LAY WITH HIM; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.”
Maybe to Muslims Lot was a prophet because Muhammad’s poems say so. But that is only one of the many misunderstandings of poet Muhammad. In reality Lot was not a prophet in God’s word i.e. the Bible. The above incident that happened to Lot has been mentioned in the Bible, not to endorse the action, but to expose the sin of Lot’s daughters. By the way, incest is prohibited in the Bible. The prohibition is clearly mentioned in the ‘Law of Moses.’ The Law of Moses came nearly five hundred years after this incident! Use some reasoning skills while reading.
v. “Regarding Prophet Israel: Genesis 35:22And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben WENT AND LAY WITH Bilhah his father’s concubine: and Israel heard [it]. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:”
Read properly. The above sin/incest was not committed by prophet Israel. It was committed by his son Ruben. The sin of Ruben has been exposed in the Bible. As a result of this sin Ruben lost his position to Levi in God’s blessings. Again although incest of this type has been forbidden in the ‘Law of Moses,’ which came five hundred years after this incident, the Bible is not endorsing it but exposing it. I can’t expect a person like you with such reading skills to understand the difference between endorsing and exposing.
vi. “Regarding Prophet Judah: Genesis 38: 15When Judah saw her, he thought her [to be] an harlot; because she had covered her face. 16And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, LET ME COME IN UNTO THEE; (for he knew not that she [was] his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me? 17And he said, I will send [thee] a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give [me] a pledge, till thou send [it]? 18And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that [is] in thine hand. And he gave [it] her, and CAME IN UNTO HER, and she conceived by him.”
Here Judah, who is not a prophet, committed the above act five hundred years prior to the Law of Moses that prohibited incest. Tamar was legally entitled to remarry anyone apart from her blood relatives since her husband had died. In that way her desire to get remarried was not wrong and the sexual union between her and Judah was not even incest. Moreover Judah did that unknowingly. You have a problem to read this incident in the Bible, but you don’t have any problems to read in the Quran how Muhammad lusted after his daughter-in-law and married her while his son was still alive (Quran Sura 33:37). Instead of exposing such wretchedness in Muhammad, Quranic Allah condoned and approved it according to Muhammad’s own poems! Isn’t it amazing to know how Muhammad brings Allah’s revelations that suit Muhammad’s lust and perversion!! Muslims think this man is the best example in the world! For people like you the sins that were exposed in the Bible appears like ‘rubbish!’ But the crap that you see in the Quran condoning and approving Muhammad’s self interests is Allah’s words written on golden plates in heaven for you!! I feel sorry for you guys. By the way you asked, “Do you think, these rubbishes suit Prophets?” No, I don’t think. They neither suit prophets nor should be condoned and approved by true God.
You wrote:
“Now regarding your allegations:
A. Regarding STUPID story: Brother Fais brought a stupid story and I supported that this story is stupid and any story parallel to this can be only stupid… Now the parallel story which Muslims (and all others with logic) consider stupid as well. Here it goes. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave his only BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” KJV
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life”. RSV Do you know that this is the most famous verse of Bible and has been translated in almost all the languages known to Christians on Earth? One amazing thing, you see the the comment in RSV (latest version), here word BEGOTTEN doesnot exist any more. Amazing, these christian scholars took the “begotten claim” of the God (or John) from the word of God (Bible). Jesus is no more begotten. I think it is clear. If you need to have more detailed story of God punishing his only son for the sins of peoples you read the verses from arrest to the grave i.e. crucifixion (or, crucifiction) in the different Gospels in detail. If you need my help tell me I’ll quote you to them.”
My response:
My point is you brought a STUPID story in collusion with Fais, but who wrote it? The answer is ‘STUPIDS.’ By the way, Christians did not write this story and we don’t believe this story! (This will let the readers understand once more who the STUPIDS are even if M Comforter comes back with his usual beating around the bush type of comments!)
You think what is written in John 3:16 is the parallel story to the above! This should tell the readers how good your reading skills are. Let’s see what is written and what it means.
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His ‘monogenes’ (one and only, unique, only one of his kind) Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)
The Greek word ‘monogenes’ has been translated differently as begotten, only, unique etc. It is hard for the corrupted minds to digest the fact that the English word ‘begotten’ has several meanings. ‘Born out of sexual union’ is only one of the meanings. Begotten also means dearly or only. But the nuances of the English word ‘begotten’ is not the main point here. In order to get the proper understanding we should look to the original Greek word. ‘Monogenes’ is the Greek word that is used in verse John 3:16. It is derived from Greek words ‘monos’ (one, only, alone) and ‘genos’ (species, race, family, offspring, kind). Its meaning is ‘only’ ‘alone’ ‘unique’ or ‘only one of its kind.’ With this in mind we can see clearly that Jesus is the only/unique Son of God. If the choice of translators’ words makes Muslims like M Comforter to think that God’s word i.e. the Bible, is changed then readers can understand how serious is Muslim’s objections to the Bible’s integrity and authenticity. Many well known Muslim thinkers came up with thousands of errors in the Bible counting on different words different translators used. Such is the wisdom of Muslim apologists! If that is the way to count the corruption of an ancient book then we end up with thousands of supposed errors even in the Quran!!
What’s more, even Muslim scholars who translated the Quran (the so-called unchangeable words of Allah) into English fall under the same condemnation of Mr. M Comforter’s illogical and childish objection. The 1946 English edition of Yusuf Ali’s Quran has this verse, “(God) will say: “Thus Dist thou, when Our Signs came unto thee, disregarded Them: so wilt thou, This day, be disregarded” (Sura 20:126). This same verse is written in the 1990 revised English edition of Yusuf Ali’s Quran printed in Saudi Arabia, “(Allah) will say: Thus Dist thou, when Our Signs Came unto thee, forgot Them: so wilt thou, This day, be forgotten.” Over the years ‘disregarded Them’ changed into ‘forgot Them’ and ‘be disregarded’ changed into ‘be forgotten.’ Yet, M Comforter is very comfortable with this kind of double standard in his illogical whining to the change of the ‘begotten Son’ to ‘only Son’ in different versions of the English Bible (Readers please take note of this type of hypocrisy that is prevalent very much in the objections of some dishonest Muslim zealots to the integrity of God’s word the Bible. Unfortunately these Muslims display their hypocrisy without limits. Their sole aim is to malign God’s word the Bible).
a. Just by quoting John 3:16 Mr. M. Comforter feels that he showed the readers a parallel to Fais’ STUPID story. This attempt itself is a witness to M Comforter’s wisdom which has been groomed under Islamic influence.
b. Since Mr. M. Comforter could not find any substantial problem with the above verse in his desperate attempt to prove the Bible wrong he complains about the English word choice by the translators for Greek ‘monogenous.’ Even Muslim translators did this type of change for the latest Quranic English translations as I have showed above. How about that? Maybe the zealous Muslim Comforter is so blind to see such things in the so-called final religion Islam (which I showed you above with examples from Yusuf Alis’ Quran) simply because it is supposedly the perfect religion and all the unreasoning minds would obey and accept!
c. Here Mr. M. Comforter conveniently forgot to mention the Islamic STUPID story that rivals Fais’ story. Let me quote all three of them for the sake of the readers. Readers, please read all the three quotes—Fais STUPID story, Hadith collector Muslim’s story and the Bible verse. You can decide which of the three are similar. Don’t look to my comments or M Comforter’s beat-around-the-bush comments in the past about the Stupid hadith story. Just use your reading skills you can see the truth yourself…
(1) Fais STUPID story : “…All the bad people of this city stood before the judge and claimed “oh just judge, we know we are bad people and we have done bad things, but please! do not punish us let us go! because there is one among us in our city who has never done anything bad in his whole life. infact, he has always told us to stay away from bad things, but we never listened, so please punish this man instead!!!” And so, upon hearing this the judge had this goodly man quite immediately arrested and and put infront of a firing squad and given a gruesome penalty of death. The bad bad people were let go in return, and the bad people returned to their bad ways. THE END! : oh, did I mention the good man was the son of the judge?”
(2) Sahih Muslim’s story: “Abu Burda reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to ‘Umar b. ‘Abd al-‘Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6668)
(3) Bible verse: “For God so loved the world, that He gave His ‘monogenous’ (unique, only one of his kind) Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)
Let me try in a last attempt to explain to you the Biblical salvation, which I already did a couple of times in different ways in the past hoping that you would understand it. If you don’t want to accept it and get God’s salvation benefit out of it that’s ok with me. But if you say I don’t understand, it is stupid, it should not be that way etc. then I can’t help you for the word of God says, “For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18). I don’t want to repeat my explanations again and again. This is mainly because my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ has warned me in the Bible, “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces” (Matthew 7:6). At some point I need to follow this Jesus’ command.
Here is my explanation of the biblical salvation in simple points:
God created human beings (Adam and Eve) and gave them a command.
Adam and Eve disobeyed God’s command and fell into sin and thus lost fellowship with God and acquired ‘fallen nature.’
All the descendants of Adam and Eve inherited the ‘fallen nature’ from the first couple.
God gave the ‘law’ to know what sin is and how a person could come back to God. There are a number of dos and don’ts in the law. It consists of moral, ceremonial, legal, social, dietary and administrative parts.
God instituted in the law some symbolic sacrifices to atone human sins. The principle of substitution has been made a part of the law.
There are two ways of salvation (forgiveness of sins and admission into heaven) according to the law.
(1) If the law, particularly the moral part, is observed perfectly 100% then a person can attain salvation. If the whole law is fulfilled but one command is broken then it is unacceptable before the holy God. By this standard no human being can attain salvation.
(2) Salvation is given to those who come to God by having faith in His substitution/atonement provision.
According to God’s word all have sinned in the light of the law and have been separated from God.
Everyone in the world is a failure by the standard of the law. But those who came to God, before Jesus and after Jesus, by faith in what God does, but not trusting in their own religious or righteous deeds, were made righteous. The basis of this justification right from Adam and Eve’s time is the ‘substitution/atonement principle.’
According to ‘substitution/atonement principle’ one human being is worth saving only one more human being. However, no person is in a position to save another person, because everyone got into sin and thereby needs to be saved. In other words every one in this world needs a ‘Saviour.’
According to the law in order to save all mankind (many billions) only someone who is worth all the mankind needs to become substitution/atonement for all. No created man or angel is of that worth. Therefore, God whose worth is much more than that came forward in His love to offer Himself as the substitution/atonement for all. Although God is infinite, His word (the logos), which is a part of Him, took on human form and nature and born as Jesus Christ in this world. All this had been written in the Bible as prophecy much before Jesus’ birth, life, suffering, death and resurrection on this earth.
God’s final and perfect ‘substitution/atonement’ was Jesus Christ the ‘lamb of God.’ Jesus Christ who took on human form and nature has always been part of God as ‘the Logos’ (God’s Word). In Hebrew language ‘son of’ connotes ‘in the order of.’ Therefore, Jesus is the Son of God in the sense that he is in the order of God. The title ‘Son of God’ has been conferred to him even before his birth as human baby to Mary. He is both fully human and fully divine. His body was created and had a beginning, but the one who lived in that body had no beginning because He was not created. Willingly Jesus Christ offered Himself for the sins of the world. (Johan 1:1-2, 14; Philippians 2:5-8; John 3:16; Matthew 20:28; Hebrews ch.9). This he did as had been prophesied long before by the prophets of God (Isaiah 53:1-12; Acts 3:17-26).
“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.” (1 Timothy 2:3-6)
“Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus; who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession.” (Titus 2:13-14)
You wrote:
“Brother we have commonsense not supernatural sense. Give the logic in common terms not supernaturally. I have been telling you repeatedly. And how many times will you assume us to have commonsense (?supernatural) and forget. We don’t have your type of common sense. Don’t forget again. You gave the logic of integer and multiplication and I just tried to explain them logically. It is your problem . Never in your life give these logic of integer again to any innocent souls. If it comes in your mind just remember my logical explanation & stop this illogical propaganda.”
My response:
My friend, I wish you had needed commonsense, let alone supernatural sense. You want to count, measure and evaluate the Creator with mathematics! That it self is a clear indication of how much needed commonsense you actually have. 1+1+1+1=3; 1x1x1=1 are mathematical truths. What do these mathematical formulas that can be used to count and measure created things have to do with the Creator? You know what, I will definitely try to follow your advice, “never in your life give these logic of integer again to any innocent souls.” How can I give these things to any ‘innocent/ignorant’ soul that thinks God can be added and multiplied the way we do the created things?! I will not.
You wrote:
“So, according to you, concept of infinity doesnot set to any created thing but to God only (uncreated). Isn’t it? So, tell the physicist and mathematician to avoid this term infinity for created materials of this world and universe.”
My response:
Let me repeat it again ‘there is no actual infinite physical being in the universe.’ If you can understand what I am postulating here but believe otherwise then you can go to any friend of yours who is claiming to be the physicist and mathematician and ask him to show you one such being. If you get at least one then you can write about it in your next posting. We can talk about it more at least for the entertainment of our readers.
You wrote:
“So, according to you “God is infinite & it means God is without limits”. So, logically, Jesus could not be a God as he had many limitations e.g. of knowledge, of number, of time etc. Or, God was fooling people when such limitations were attributed to Jesus in Bible.”
My response:
First correction—Jesus is not ‘a God’;
Second correction—Jesus is ‘incarnated God.’ He is both fully human being and fully God. Not just one of these two, but both. Yes, as man Jesus had many limitations. But as God has no limitations;
Third correction—God was not fooling people, however, even after the above explanation only fools find it hard to understand why Jesus had many limitations. Sorry for being so blunt.
More to follow…
Adil.
Peace be upon you.
I was waiting for “more to follow” from you, because many a question you may escape if I start commenting, as you have been doing in past. Now I realized, your “more to follow”, may be a trick to delay my response. So, I’m giving my response. But you should continue your remaining response of last comment before switching to a new comment. You should not escape as you did in past. It was almost three weeks you last wrote, I think remaining part deserves just one sitting. Don’t give excuse of lack of time. You were very prompt in the beginning but the moment, things became difficult, you started escaping the scene.
It is really unfortunate that you again started your response with a lie and continued till the end. It is not just claim rather a matter self evident. I am sure that nobody can give any logical reasoning to the problems in present day Bible and dogma of Christianity.
Your first claim: I detoured and was not straight to my topic even though I came up with some claims.
My response: It is a self evident lie. With the mild introduction and mostly exposing your nature of frustration, I specifically dealt your comments, and if I went in little detail over something, it is only to deal the topic or associated quotations. Anybody can read them and verify my claim.
Next claim: My statement that, I have cleared all your objection, is a false claim.
My response: I challenge you to give me one evidence since the first comment that I escaped a topic without clearing the objection. Inshallah, I would love to answer them. And contrary to it, you have been escaping thoroughly with slight here a little and there a little. I already gave you ten evidences with comment numbers, where you did that and many more yet to be exposed (which I will present to you once you give the reply to them). If you have certain objections in my last response I will clear them now, inshallah.
Next claim: I was abusive:
Your evidence and my answer in CAPITALS:
Few sentences I used was abusive as following,
I said:
i. “it is in your nerves to be abusive and illogical,”: A TRUTH.
THIS IS YOUR LANGUAGE, WHICH NO READER CAN DENY IF HE HAS READ YOUR COMMENTS. SO, IF SOMEONE IS ABUSIVE AND YOU TELL WITH THE PPROOF THAT HE IS ABUSIVE, IS IT WRONG? IF SOMEBODY HAS KILLED SOMEBODY (PROVED) AND WAS CALLED A KILLER BY PEOPLE, IS IT ABUSE? BROTHER? IT IS THE TRUTH. MEND YOUR WAYS IF YOU FEEL BAD, INSTEAD OF STOPPING OTHERS FROM EXPOSING YOU.
ii. “the present day Bible is no more the God’s word,” : A TRUTH.
I HAVE PROVED, EVEN YOU ACCEPTED THAT PRESENT DAY BIBLE HAS PROBLEM IN IT. SO, HOW COME IT IS STILL A GOD’S WORD AS A WHOLE.
SEE YOUR COMMENT AGAIN : In Comment 45
You said:
“For Christians the Bible is God’s word.”
“The Bible is God’s word because its original sources/records were ‘inspired’ by God’s Sprit (cf. 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 2:21). ”
“The materials of the original records WERE NOT ‘IMMORTALS.’ Although they were inspired they were SUBJECTED TO DISINTEGRATION AND DESTRUCTION.”
“The Bible is God’s word because its ORIGINAL records were inspired by God’s Spirit and its message is the ORIGINAL message given by God. ”
iii. “This is your deception,”
IF I EXPOSE YOUR DECEPTION AND SAY THAT IT IS YOUR DECEPTION, IS IT ABUSE? AMAZING!
E.G. YOU ARE COMING UP WITH CERTAIN CLAIM (COPIED FROM MR. SAM) AND WITHOUT GIVING PROOF ESTABLISHING IT. IS IT NOT DECEPTION? READ MY LAST COMMENT WHERE I USED THIS SENTECE IN THE COPYCAT DIALOGUING SECTION.
iv. “you believe in the satanic inspiration of your mentor Mr. Sam” A TRUTH
SEE THE WEBSITE OF MR. SAM AND YOUR PRESENTATION OF THE SAME IN THIS DEBATE AND WITH MY PROOF AGAINST THEM SINCE THE FIRST COMMENT. ANYBODY CAN SEE HOW WRONG AND MISINSPIRED (SATANIC?) YOU ARE? AND I HAVE PROVED THEM. IF YOU NEED PROOF JUST START REREADING OUR DEBATE FROM FIRST COMMENT.
v. “Bible is rubbish” A TRUTH, IF YOU SEE PRESENT DAY BIBLE WITH ALL IT’S INSINUATUION AND ALTERATION IN IT. I HAVE LISTED FEW OF THEM FOR WHICH YOU HAVE NO LOGICAL REPLY. AND IN ONE INSTANCE EVEN YOU ACCEPTED WHEN I GAVE FEW EVIDENCES HOW IT CAN’T BE GOD’S WORD. (SEE COOMMENT 42 OF YOURS)
“The materials of the original records WERE NOT ‘IMMORTALS.’ Although they were inspired they were SUBJECTED TO DISINTEGRATION AND DESTRUCTION.”
“The Bible is God’s word because its ORIGINAL records were inspired by God’s Spirit and its message is the ORIGINAL message given by God. ”
SO, I REPEAT THE PRESENT DAY BIBLE HAS MANY RUBBISHES IN IT AND IT IS NO MORE A GOD’S WORD. YES WE MUSLIMS ALSO BELIEVE THAT ORIGINAL GOSPEL WAS HOLY AND WAS GOD’S WORD. BUT WHERE IS IT? i.e. GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS. DO YOU KNOW ANY SUCH GOSPEL, I KNOW GOSPEL ACCORDING TO MATTHEW, MARK LUKE, JOHN, BARNABASS ETC.
vi. “Lord Jesus Christ as only a man but not God” A TRUTH ACCORDING TO YOUR BIBLE
Hebrews 2: 17 Therefore he had to be made LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN EVERY RESPECT, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people.
CAN YOU READ, THAT JESUS WAS MADE LIKE MAN (BRETHREN) IN EVERY RESPECT? IT IS NOT SAID HE WAS MADE PART GOD AND PART HUMAN OR FULL GOD AND FULL HUMAN.
Acts 2: 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which GOD DID BY HIM in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know.
CAN YOU READ, ACCORDING TO PETER JESUS WAS NOT A ‘GOD AS MAN’ BUT ‘MAN APPROVED BY GOD (PROPHET)’.
vii. “I abused Apostle Paul by ridiculing the scripture he brought from God.” ANOTHER TRUTH ABOUT APOSTLE PAUL.
I HAVE ALREADY PROVED HOW HE SETS PERFECTLY INTO THE CRITERIA FOR JUDGING THE FALSE PROPHET (IN BIBLE). SEE COMMENT 22 point 13.
NOW, I WILL SHOW YOU AN EVIDENCE FROM YOUR BIBLE WHERE APOSTLE PAUL LIED WITH THE CIRCUMSTANCES. HERE IS THE WORDINGS OF PAUL OF THE SAME STORY IN TWO DIFFERENT PLACES.
Acts9: 3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, HEARING A VOICE, BUT SEEING NO MAN.
Acts 22 6And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9And they that were with me SAW INDEED THE LIGHT, and were afraid; but THEY HEARD NOT THE VOICE of him that spake to me. 10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
IN FIRST INSTANCE, HE IS SAYING THAT MEN WITH HIM HEARD THE VOICE BUT DID NOT SEE. AND IN SECOND INSTANCE, HE IS SAYING THE OPPOSITE THAT MEN WITH HIM DID NOT HEAR THE VOICE BUT SAW THE LIGHT.
WHO IS RIDICULING THE SCRIPTURE, ME OR MR. PAUL?
viii. “I abused Christians by accusing them of believing false teachings”
I AM PROVING AND GIVING THE LOGICAL INTERROGATION AND TELLING THEM TO FOLLOW JESUS INSTEAD OF FOLLOWING PAUL. AND TRYING TO BRING OUT THEIR MISTAKES AND FALSE BELIEF AND PROVING THEM WITH THEIR BIBLE AND LOGIC. IS IT ABUSE? I WOULD LOVE TO BE SUCH ABUSIVE. WHO KNOWS SOME OF THE INNOCENT SOULS SEE THE TRUTH AND GOD GET THEM GUIDED.
Even with these minor, not so very good words, there is enough reason to say I was decent throughout if seen in the context.
I never said such comments for Christians as you have been using thoroughly to defame Muslim e.g. “You Muslims already use little commonsense”.
I never used any bad word from my mouth for Jesus(pbuh) as you have been doing for Muhammad (pbuh)e.g. mad etc.
I never used the bad word for God as you have been doing like Arabic god etc.
Now regarding your further objections:
1. Your lie on prophet Muhammad (pbuh) with rubbishes like mad man or crazy man.
Before starting I must say few things regarding your quotations. Never quote me from the books of historian, even if he happens to be Muslim. Try to quote me from the authentic sources only as you have been doing in the past. Don’t change your track if you could not materialize with authentic sources. History Books like Al- Tabari has many weakness in them and many times even writer has accepted in the book itself and many things writer has written from non-reliable historical sources (other than Quran and Sunnah).
I want to repeat Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was a human being with it’s limitation. There are instances when he was wounded, sick etc. it has nothing to do with prophet hood. If in his life in certain situation (under satanic influence), he was forgetful for a very short period in his personal life, it has nothing to do with his prophet hood which according to hadiths was safe from his human limitation. Revelation was through God. It is another proof of Quran to be God’s word. And infact he cured this ailment through his prophethood.
Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 4.490 Narrated by Aisha, “Magic was worked on the Prophet so that he began to imagine that he was doing a thing which he was not actually doing. One day he invoked (Allah) for a long period and then said, “I feel that Allah has inspired me as how to cure myself. ……..”
And in the beginning of revelation he had certain abnormal feeling, which he expressed in common language of people. All of a sudden a human being is seeing the angels and started getting revelation which he never faced before, ought to create certain discomfort. If I say last month in a very noisy crowd I had a severe headache or feeling as if I became mad, does it mean I am a mad or mad for even certain period. It is called as deception. This is your misquotation and mispresentation.
Does it mean that if anybody occasionally forgets certain action or thing, he is mad? Or, if somebody feels discomfort in certain conditions and expresses as above, he becomes mad?
Few points regarding Quran: Give this book to any person (translated in his language) and give Bible to the same person (beware the person should be adult or chapters like Ezekial 23 should be removed before giving) and ask him which book looks as if it is written by human (with evident human touch in it ) and which book sounds like perfect guidance book in a very unique style (far from human touch). No prize for guessing.
You offered good way of dialoguing but failed to listen to my suggestion on good way of dialoguing. Very unfortunate! May God guide you towards logical reasoning. May God make me still better in approach so that the hardness of the heart can be melted in much easier way. Amen.
I never attacked Bible or anybody. It is your bible which is contradicting and attacking you and your belief of Christianity, Jesus or Paul.
You make me wait a lot on pretext of being busy. Brother, I have a very hectic schedule still I make use of time and give prompt reply. One of the thing which I really love is your comment. Because, it gives me opportunity to present the fact and expose deception. The moment I see your comment on Sakshi, I feel an inner joy and at the earliest opportunity sit to write. I would have really appreciated if you would have given any fitting or logical response. But contrary to this, it contains abuse, misquotation and mispresentation to hide the face. May God give you courage to face the Truth. Amen.
2. Regarding “Playing with words and changing the meaning to just opposite of what it means.” Me or You?
Brother, there are two ways of explaining the truth i.e. style of Muslim Comforter and style of Christian Adil. Let’s see the difference:
There is a dark red paper. Mr. Comforter is saying it is dark red while Mr. Christian Adil is saying, it is black. Then it was asked to prove it. Mr. Christian Adil did it very easily, he just turned off the light, the dark red colour started looking black. Very logical. Isn’t it? Now, Mr. Comforter was asked to prove that, he went one step further and took the paper and turned the light source on and exposed the lie of his brother. Then he cut his own finger with sharp knife and showed the oozing blood of the similar and established dark red color, then he matched the paper color and blood color and said are they not same i.e. dark red color. Mr. Adil’s mouth was shut and he escaped the scene.
But after few months when he came back again and during a talk, dark red paper matter was started then he again said it was black not dark red I have already proved to you and he says something similar as below:
[Readers, please go through some of his previous posting and see how Mr. M Comforter argues vainly and tortuously to prove that the paper was DARK RED (my simulation). You decide who is “playing with words and changing the meaning to just opposite to what it means.” He complained that I did this while he himself fits in his description very well. Please you decide who the hypocrite is here.]
I ask, what do you call this? Stubbornness or shrewdness, Probably, both.
Any reader who has been following since the first comment would say it is something like a synopsis of all these dialogues.
Now I will give you an example also.
Mr. Christian Adil, said death means growing (by turning the light off). I said and exposed him. See the following.
In comment 39, there was a verse regarding scientific error of Bible:
John 12:24 “I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and DIES, it remains only a single seed. But if it DIES, it produces many seeds.”
And you replied (tried to turn off the light),
a. Where did Jesus say, “The dead seed produce new seeds”? This is what the corrupt mind of Osama fabricated.
b. What is Jesus trying to convey to his hearers here? If only a wheat-seed falls to the ground and does not remain as it is (a single seed), but looses itself as the single seed (dies) in the process of producing life then we can see a new plant.
c. One can see a plant growing out of the ground after a few days of planting a seed in the ground. After the plant comes out, does the original seed still remain intact? No not at all. It is gone or lost its original state that is what the ‘death of a seed’ referring to here!
d. The ‘death of a seed’ here does not mean as Osama (or M Comforter) would have us believed. When Jesus said that the seed ‘dies’ (in the process) it does not necessarily mean the soul or spirit of the seed leaves its body and goes to one of its places (according to hadith one place in heaven and one place in hell!).
e. To understand the above verse one needs to look into the context and relevance. I don’t mean you have to go to some STUPID stories collected by some STUPIDS. Look into the book itself.
f. According to Jesus the ‘death of the seed’ occurs during the process of producing the new plant, but not prior to it.
So, where is the so-called ‘scientific false?’ Perhaps in the minds of ‘wise’ Muslims! And I exposed you (just turned the light on),
My response in comment 42 (just turned the light on, everything was evident),
i. You wrote: Where did Jesus say, “The dead seed produce new seeds”? …
My response: Can’t you read? Let me write it again for you , “But if it DIES, it produces many seeds.”
ii, iii, & iv. So, you mean death doesn’t mean death rather growing.
My response:
Something like fetus growing from zygote to a baby. You mean Zygote died in this process. Keep your intelligence with you. Brother, zygote or seed grows to become baby or plant. They don’t die. Don’t teach us your supernatural English.
v. Regarding context:
My response: Control your aggression. I’ll give you the context. If you read the context of this parable it is related to ‘death’ only not ‘growing’. And Jesus was preparing his team for mission i.e. Jihad. He was removing fear of death by quoting these parables that if you die you will be successful. Read the next few verses to get perfect context
i.e. “25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.”
vi. You said: According to Jesus the ‘death of the seed’ occurs during the process of producing the new plant, but not prior to it.
My response: Can’t you read? Let me write it again for you , “But if it DIES, it produces many seeds.” Can you see here it is written clearly that prior to producing seed it dies i.e. if it dies, it produces many seeds.
Then you said: So, where is the so-called ‘scientific false?’ Perhaps in the minds of ‘wise’ Muslims!
My response: writer of Bible is saying that if one seed (kernel of wheat) DIES (scientifically means ceasing from being alive, i.e. they can no longer perform any metabolic function, it never means transforming or growing), it produces many seeds.
So, if it ceases from being alive, it can never produce further seeds. This statement ( i.e. a single dead seed after it dies produce many seeds) is scientifically a false statement. I think even a WISE Christian will not accept that ( through his comprehension), he also needs some supernatural power to understand this.
Likewise many more. Readers can read the debate from first comment.
Now regarding Mr. Adil’s objection:
A) Quran says Allah is the best of deceivers (Allahu khayru al-makireena)– S. 3:54; cf. 8:30
Quran says Allah cheats (wahuwa khadiaauhum)—Sura 4:142
My response:
First of all see page2 comment -18 (point 6-iv & 7) you wrote similar thing (I’m just taking the quotation, which quoted)
“And (the unbelievers) SCHEMED and PLANNED, and Allah SCHEMED (makr=deceitfulness or dishonesty) also, and the BEST OF SCHEMERS is Allah. (S. 3:54)
“The hypocrites—they seek to deceive Allah. But it is Allah who deceive them.” (Sura 4:142)
Now let me quote,
FROM MOHSIN KHAN
3: 54. And they (disbelievers) PLOTTED [to kill ‘Iesa (Jesus)], and Allâh PLANNED too. And Allâh is the BEST OF THE PLANNERS.
8: 30. And (remember) when the disbelievers PLOTTED against you (O Muhammad ) to imprison you, or to kill you, or to get you out (from your home, i.e. Makkah); they were plotting and Allâh too was PLANNING, and Allâh is the BEST OF THE PLANNERS.
FROM YUSUF ALI
3:54 And (the unbelievers) PLOTTED and PLANNED, and God too PLANNED, and the BEST OF PLANNERS is God.
8:30 Remember how the Unbelievers PLOTTED against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and GOD TOO PLANS; BUT THE BEST OF PLANNERS IS GOD.
Now, you would have understood why I quoted all these. But for innocent readers, I want to explain. Nowhere in Quran, God has written He is THE BEST OF DECEIVER (superlative degree) as Mr. Christian Adil deceitfully pointed above i.e.
“Quran says Allah is the best of deceivers (Allahu khayru al-makireena)– S. 3:54; cf. 8:30”
Even in past Mr.Christian Adil, quoted rightly, but today intentionally he misquoted. You can see above, in major translations, it is translated as “the best of planner” not “the best of deceiver”. Yes, the word planner (makr-) is usually used in negative sense. But, it is written about bad people’s planning (of course in bad way) to damage good people or prophet of God. And, God is a best of planner (of course badly for bad peoples) to dissolve their strategy and save his good people.
Now regarding Quran 4:142
FROM MOHSIN KHAN
Verily, the hypocrites seek to DECEIVE Allâh, but it is He Who DECEIVES them. And when they stand up for As-Salât (the prayer), they stand with laziness and to be seen of men, and they do not remember Allâh but little.
FROM YUSUF ALI
The Hypocrites – they think they are OVER-REACHING God, but He will OVER- REACH them: When they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen of men, but little do they hold God in remembrance;
I think translation of Yusuf Ali is enough to make you understand the meaning of “ to deceive” here, i.e. to over-reach (even though in the bad way to counter the bad peoples). Let me give an example: there is a criminal gang planning to deceive the patrolling police inspector and kill him. But the intelligent inspector sensed the plot and he planned and deceived them and foiled their plan and caught them. Do you think the police inspector was a deceiver only because he deceived bad peoples from committing crime?
Don’t play with words. You can’t misquote and escape.
I challenge you to quote one verse from Quran where God USED THE WORD “ makr-” (planner or schemer or plotter) or “khada-” (deceive or cheat), for good peoples. I know you can never do this. What you can do is to quote few stories (from Mr. Sam), in which God SEEMS TO misguide or deceive people. Yes, I want my God to be bad against such enemy of muslims or bad peoples. Isn’t it the same Jesus wanted, when he preached and people did not follow him after all his effort (according to you).
Mark 4: 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND [THEIR] SINS SHOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM.
I repeat my challenge, quote me one verse from Quran where God USED THE WORD “ makr-” (planner or schemer or plotter) or “khada-” (deceive or cheat), for good peoples.
In the comments, to follow your allegation (i.e. (page 2 comment 19 point 6-iv & 7)), I had briefly explained regarding these words, but you and the whole orientalist world seems to be obsessed with “Makr” and “Khada-”. May God give you vision to understand and face the truth. Amen.
B) Quran says Allah made many Jinns and men for hell—Sura 7:179
See page2 comment -17 (point 5-i) of mine, followed by counter question and it’s answer till I satisfied you (i.e. you could not ask further question), for detail and later comments. There, readers can find, that he could not go far on his claim (proved logically by matching the color). To repeat, I paste from there.
“..Now regarding Quran, which again came under your misinterpretation. There are many places in Quran where God said that He sealed the heart of peoples or created them for hell. First of all you read this verse of “Quran 63:3 That is because they believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed, so they understand not.”
It is something as teacher says to his student (when student is not following the instruction properly),” I ‘ll give you in written that you will not pass the exam. It doesn’t mean teacher wanted that student to fail or if student really failed, does it mean that, it is teacher who is responsible for his failure (only because he warned so in this style). Teacher told this out of his experience. So, what about God, who is All-knowing, who knows everything whether past, or present or future? And if God says that, He made him for hell or sealed heart, it never means He made him for Hell but declaring that this particular person who is also a God’s creation will go to hell or he will not respond to the call of God (i.e. heart is sealed).
Now , you decide that this Quranic God, who is predicting regarding bad people and warning them, is good, or the Biblical God, who showed all miracles and gave the best teaching(of the time) and when they (people like scribes and others) rejected Him, He started playing tricks to push them to the Hell. It is up to you decide.”
Objections and following clarification, readers can themselves see in comments to follow.
So, I cleared the doubt and still you are reiterating the same. It shows you suffer from forget fullness (in this case you must be cautious in the future) or you are a stubborn as I mentioned above in your style of presentation.
And even in my above explanation I never made the meaning opposite of what it sounds rather I gave the appropriate meaning. Like for “Allah planned”, I never said it means “Allah did not plan” or for “Allah overreached or deceived bad peoples” I never said “Allah did not or over reach bad peoples”. Don’t misquote me. I never gave the opposite meaning or entirely different meaning (unlike you). For you, one means three, death means growing, all means not all but few. And with your supernatural logic (switching off the light.. remember!) you are trying to prove them. And I am not doing anything but just enlightening it. Everything is evident.
Quran 17:81And say: “Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish.
3. I challenged last time,
“One more point, you alleged me of deriding prophets. If you have the guts and even scarce of Truthfulness in you, show me where I insulted prophets….”.
Where is the answer to my this challenge? So, I accept you lied at THAT time.
You swiftly escaped it. Only thing you did is to (rather tried to cover up) answer my NEXT QUESTION on quotations from Bible where your Bible is deriding the prophets.
4. Regarding prophets:
i. Regarding prophet Noah: So, if prophet of God drinks inside the tent, it is not a problem. No matter if in the process he becomes naked. Isn’t it? Amazing! Brother, We don’t believe prophet of God will do this, even if it is 5000 yrs back. He was the model to society. This shows your sickness. You peoples are deriding prophets with such beliefs. Neither Noah, nor Jesus, nor Mohammad (pubt) had ever had alcoholic drink.
Now regarding, your quotation on Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). This is nothing but lie.
THE HADITH YOU QUOTED IS A LIE. I have checked my hadith book. No such hadith exists. I am giving two online links to cross check the hadith. You said it is mentioned in Muslim – Drinks-3753. Readers can check themselves. Book of drinks start from hadith no.4879 so it is not possible that this hadith can be there..
Hadith no. 3753 is related to book of transaction and this is entirely a different hadith on different topic i.e. on transaction. So, this hadith is a lie. What should we call a person who lies? Readers will reply inshallah.
http://www.sahihmuslim.com
(go to contents then book of drinks)
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/023.smt.html
(book of drink start here)
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/010.smt.html
(hadith no. 3753 is here)
Now I will give you one of the hadiths which is a truth. From same ‘Muslim’ and book of Drink, hadith no. 4957.
“’A’isha reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) was asked about it, whereupon he said that EVERYTHING THAT CAUSES INTOXICATION IS FORBIDDEN.”
May God gives you courage to face the truth.
ii. Regarding prophet David:
2 Samuel 6: 20Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! 21And David said unto Michal, [It was] before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD. 22And I WILL YET BE MORE VILE than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour. 23Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death. KJV
Anybody can read the story and understand the truth which you tried to cover. Here Michal is saying what she saw, not telling the lie. Reason?
King David did not deny the allegation rather he did not like Michal pointing out his acts with his maids on the celebration day. Neither did the writer of this book deny this claim of Michal. Can you show me a verse where King David denied it as a lie. Rather it is opposite. King David justified his act, that he was made king, so he had right to celebrate and he overreacted and said that he would be even more vile than this in future and to the maid servants with whom she objected will no more be just a playgirl rather he will honor them (probably marry) and poor Michal was completely neglected for the rest of the life ( so she could not have any child unto the day of her death).
Readers can judge the reading skill of Mr. christian Adil. Is it the way Prophet behaves (according to Bible)?
There is another absurd story (version) related to Prophet David in Bible.
He commits adultery with Bath-sheba the wife of Uriah:
2 SAMUEL 11:4 “And David sent messengers, and took her (Bathsheba); and she came in unto him, and he LAY (had intercourse) with her. . .
Then David wickedly caused the death of Uriah, the husband of Bath-sheba.
See. 2 SAMUEL 11:6-25
Now Quran comes to rescue Prophet David. According to Islam prophets were human with all human feelings and limitations but under strict guidance and inspiration of God as they were model for the society.
Quran 38 21. And has the news of the litigants reached you? When they climbed over the wall into (his) Mihrâb (a praying place or a private room,). 22. When they entered in upon Dâwûd (David), he was terrified of them, they said: “Fear not! (We are) two litigants, one of whom has wronged the other, therefore judge between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, and guide us to the Right Way.23. Verily, this my brother (in religion) has ninety nine ewes, while I have (only) one ewe, and he says: “Hand it over to me, and he overpowered me in speech.” 24. [Dâwûd (David)] said (immediately without listening to the opponent): “He has wronged you in demanding your ewe in addition to his ewes. And, verily, many partners oppress one another, except those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and they are few.” And Dâwûd (David) guessed that We have tried him and he sought Forgiveness of his Lord, and he fell down prostrate and turned (to Allâh) in repentance. 25. So We forgave him that, and verily, for him is a near access to Us, and a good place of (final) return (Paradise).
The actual event as one clearly understands from the aforesaid verses of the Quran was – David had expressed his desire to Uriah (or whatever be the name of the man) that he should divorce his wife as David wanted her for himself. And because David was a king, his request put Uriah in a helpless situation feeling compelled to yield. At this time, before Uriah could act as David had desired, two righteous men of the nation suddenly appeared in the presence of David and presented their problem which (in terms of violation of justice) was similar to the story of David and Uriah. On hearing it, David gave his decision as king, asserting that the man with “99 ewes” had wronged the other man who with one ewe. Soon after, his conscience made him realize his violation when he became aware that this incident was a reminder to him of his own act of injustice (As David already had many wives and he wanted to add one more to them). David immediately repented, fell down prostrate before God Almighty and reversed his decision. On the basis of his sincere repentance, David was granted forgiveness by the Divine Power and his status remained unaffected. On accepting his repentance, Quran 38:26 is also a warning to Prophet David from God Almighty along with giving him the good news of exalting his rank, being evidence of the fact that David never again stumbled into similar temptations or errors arising from personal desires.
So, David, a human (and prophet) got a wrong desire but God protected and guided him. He remained righteous, but Bible made him a rapist and deceiver.
Who is deriding prophets, Bible or Quran?
Now regarding your another lie:
You wrote,
“How about your Muhammad? Look at your own Quran’s record of what has been said of him: “And they say: “O you (Muhammad) to whom the Dhikr (the Qur’an) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man. Why do you not bring angels to us if you are of the truthful ones?” S. 15:6 Hilali-Khan. The so-called Allah’s word records that Muhammad was declared by others as a MAD man.”
My response: This is another incident where you tried to prove your point by “turning off the light”. Now I will turn the lights on. Bad peoples usually declare good people as mad man, it does not make the man, mad. It is not similar to David’s story where Michal is pointing out his shameful act. Because, he himself never denied neither did the author deny, instead he over reacted and proved her point to be correct (as we saw above). In these verses of Quran, prophet was called mad man by people, but in the verses to follow, it is cleared that it was false allegation rather a type of mock by the peoples to their prophet.
Quran 15:11 And never came a Messenger to them but they did mock him.
Brother you can’t misquote and escape. Readers can see your deception, once the light is on.
iii. Regarding prophet Isiah:
You said “…The prophet went about barefoot and naked (in his undergarment) as a shocking means of gaining the attention of the people to the severity of his prediction….”.
Brother, last week I saw a group of some Apologists walking on road naked with their buttocks uncovered and barefoot. Don’t be angry, I probably mean they were naked under their garments. Even though I gave the beautiful reasoning that they were naked under their garments, still it sound offensive. How could God use such offensive language (if not in literal sense) for his prophets in His holy book? But, it was more than the use of language and it did mean naked only, not naked in his undergarment. Reason:
a. God forgot to say that Isiah was naked in his under garment which was inspired to you people. No where it is mentioned so.
b. Why did the Lord used word ‘SHAME’ for such act when He himself ordered his prophet to do so and predicted the same for the king of Assyria doing to his captives.
Isiah 20:3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant ISAIAH HATH WALKED NAKED and barefoot three years [for] a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia; 4So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, NAKED and barefoot, even WITH [THEIR] BUTTOCKS UNCOVERED, to the SHAME of Egypt.
Your reading ability is seriously doubtful. Now you tried another covering up by “turning the light off”. You quoted from Quran and tried to prove it to be similar to the above act. But actually it is opposite. You quoted about Adam and Eve when they ate from the prohibited tree , their test got finished and were made ready to be sent to earth and made as spouse for one another and their sexual desire was set started which in the language of Quran “ their raiment was stripped” . Is it the same as one getting naked in public to get attention? It is no where written that they were made naked with buttocks uncovered (language of Bible). Even if taken in literal sense (which is not the case even according to Bible for Adam and Eve in this scenario), it is not a shameful act as they were spouse (first spouse on the Earth) and was private in their act, as there was no body to see them. You mean all the spouses in their privacy, if get naked, it is a shameful act and it is similar to naked females rallying on road of America for certain demands such as wild life conservation (to get attention probably inspired from Bible, as we saw above ).
Isn’t it amazing and hypocritical? I think this much light was enough to expose your deception. Our intelligent readers can judge the lie and deception.
iv. v. & vi : With such quality attributed to prophets they are bound to get rid of their prophet hood and I am sure at least in the case of Prophet Lot (as Quran saved him and we believe he was free from such lie). In one place, I said that it was regarding prophet Israel (Genesis 35:22), I never said prophet Israel committed that sin/ incest. Yes, it was his elder son who committed incest with his mother (father’s wife or concubine – in the language of Bible wife and concubine can be same e.g. see GENESIS 25:1 and I CHRONICLES 1:32). You gave a good reasoning that at that time it was not prohibited to have incest with mother, the law came much later. We don’t believe so. We can’t expect such act from any human leave the prophet and his family, to be a non sinful act, at any time whether before thousand years or more. I think even Bible agrees with me and even you too partially, because you said “The SIN of Ruben has been exposed in the Bible. As a result of this sin Ruben lost his position to Levi in God’s blessings.” Why he lost the position, if it was still not the sinful act? Similarly how could Prophet Lot (nauzbillah) perform incest with his daughters much before the appearance of law of Moses when it was still considered sin (as we saw above). Similarly how could Judah (father in law thinking going to whore) and Tamar (taking sweet revenge) commit such sinful acts. For what purpose Bible presents such story & what moral lesson is there? Probably a theme for x- graded movies or story books, certainly not of holy book of God.
Brother you can’t keep covering up by turning the light off, I will enlighten the topic and make thing crystal clear. You can’t fool people and escape like this.
Now you again tried to cover the sins of Bible by accusing innocents. You quoted from Quran:
Quran 33:37 And (remember) when you said to him (Zaid bin Hârithah the freedslave of the Prophet Sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe Wa Sallam) on whom Allâh has bestowed Grace (by guiding him to Islâm) and you (O Muhammad Sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe Wa Sallam too) have done favour (by manumitting him) “Keep your wife to yourself, and fear Allâh.” But you did hide in yourself (i.e. what Allâh has already made known to you that He will give her to you in marriage) that which Allâh will make manifest, you did fear the people (i.e., Muhammad Sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe Wa Sallam married the divorced wife of his manumitted slave) whereas Allâh had a better right that you should fear Him. So when Zaid had accomplished his desire from her (i.e. divorced her), We gave her to you in marriage, so that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the believers in respect of (the marriage of) the wives of their adopted sons when the latter have no desire to keep them (i.e. they have divorced them). And Allâh’s Command must be fulfilled.
Now, my first question which satan (probably Sam) inspired you that Zaid bin Harithah was prophet’s son? Do you know full name of Zaid, it is Zaid bin Harithah (Zaid the son of harithah) not Zaid bin Mohammad. Prophet Mohammad’s (pbuh) all son died in early childhood. He didn’t have any son. Zaid was not his son. Then, who was Zaid bin Harithah? He was a slave of prophet whom prophet freed. Still he stayed with prophet and prophet loved him a lot, something like adopted son. But in Islam even adopted son or daughter can never have certain rights of actual son. They cannot change their father’s name attached to them. Here he was Zaid b. Harithah (not Zaid bin Mohammad). He/She can’t have share of property. He/She would not have any legal restriction of marriage to his mentor or adoptive father and his family members as it is in the case of actual father (etc). In this verse, the wisdom is given that why prophet married to divorced wife of Zaid bin Harithah, so that believers in future don’t have any problem in such marriages. The problem comes from a lie fabricated by a liar called as “Waqidi” on name of prophet pbuh, which was proved as lie without doubt. And Tabari a historian has quoted Waqidi in his The History of Al-Tabari: The Victory of Islam, translated by Michael Fishbein [State University of New York Press, Albany, 1997], Volume VIII, pp. 2-3. Orientalists love this story even though it is well known as a false fabricated story. I have already said I don’t believe, the book of historians to be source of or proof of Islamic matters. And Tabari is one among them having many weak traditions quoted from unreliable sources.
Prophet pbuh himself materialized the marriage of his cousin Zainab to Zaid. And when they could not live together and separated, prophet pbuh married her and supported her. It was commonsense that if prophet was struck with her beauty, he could have married her earlier, as he has been seeing her since childhood (as she was his cousin). Why would have he married her to Zaid bin Harithah then all this? And Quran explains the wisdom behind such marriage.
So your statement : “..how Muhammad lusted after his daughter-in-law and married her while his son was still alive (Quran Sura 33:37)….” is a BIG LIE because neither Zainab was his daughter in law nor Zaid was his son, nor Prophet pbuh ever lusted after her. I challenge you, to produce one evidence to support your claim from Quran and Sunnah (authentic). Verses of the Quran is self evident. Never again misquote this to any innocent soul as a sign of your hypocrisy.
5. Regarding stupid story and salvation of Christianity:
i. Let me correct your Greek language gymnastic first, regarding Monogenes.
You, with play of words, made the meaning of Monogenes to be “only one of it’s kind” instead of simple and obvious meaning “only son”. Why don’t you use the same translation of Monogenes when it is used in other place for others and there it is translated as “only son”. Let me give you proof from the story of city of Nain .
Luke 7:12 Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the ONLY SON of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her.
Do you know the word translated here as “the only son” in Greek is written as Monogenes. So, according to you the man who died was “only one of it’s kind” rather than “the only son” to his mother. Brother you can’t escape with such gymnastic. Here (John 31:6) it only means “the only son” as in other instances and even the literal stress in the form of the only BEGOTTEN son was not appropriate and bible scholars found it that Monogenes in other place is translated as “only son”, so the word begotten is not correct and it is just an insinuation (addition of extra word) in the process of translation. If you want to know another instance of insinuation in your Malayalam translation of bible, in the process of translation, tell me I will show it how and where it happened in your Malayalam bible, with proof. It is more than just choice of word rather putting of some extra word. And again you tried to cover it with a misquotation from Quran. Brother, in Quran it is just choice of words in different translation not the addition of extra word. You said in Yusuf Ali translation of 1946, in Quran 20:126, the word used was “ be disregarded” and in 1990 it is changed to “be forgotten”. Brother, both of these words can be used with the same meaning. See the whole verse you will be able to see the equality. By the way for your information, same publisher in the year 1994, when published translation by Muhsin Khan and Hilali, the word kept there is “be disregarded”.
Mohsin Khan (1994) Quran 20:126
(Allâh) will say: “Like this, Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) came unto you, but you DISREGARDED them (i.e. you left them, did not think deeply in them, and you turned away from them), and so this Day, you will be neglected (in the Hell-fire, away from Allâh’s Mercy).”
It also says other possible alternative but similar meaning (in bracket) of the same word i.e. be left, be turned away. You are trying to compare this choice of word by different authors to addition of or deletion of words, verses and even chapters as we can see in the Bible. Tell me I will give you a list where one edition has few verses more than others (to remind you it is not just translation problem but literal loss or addition of many verses from word of God). Brother, I think this much light was enough to expose the matter which you tried to cover.
By the way brother we have original Arabic with us and any moment it can be verified, but you seriously lack the original word of God in language of Jesus (Aramaic or Hebrew), you can’t even verify. Only thing you have, are thousands of greek manuscript of new testament and amazingly no two are duplicate to each other. May God give you vision to see the truth.
ii. The stupid story and trying to cover up the face by misquoting hadith to justify their mistake. You said “Mr. M. Comforter conveniently forgot to mention the Islamic STUPID story that rivals Fais’ story”.
My response: I think it is you who conveniently rather deliberately forgot the details of this so called Islamic stupid story. Because I already, cleared each and every question related to this hadith in past and you are misquoting it again. Anybody with conscience will never do. But you are repeatedly doing that. Either you are stubborn, suffering from forgetfulness or hypocrite. Readers can read the comment19 (onwards), for the detail of this hadith. For those who don’t have time and joined us lately, I would explain it in brief.
Sahih Muslim Book 037, Number 6668 : “Abu Burda reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to ‘Umar b. ‘Abd al-‘Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes.”
It is explained (in Sharah an Nawwi), that this hadith is circumstantial, it is related to those sin which is being instigated by Christians and Jews (known fact that they are master in inventing sins as well), and Muslims following them. But if Muslim asks for forgiveness then they will be forgiven . (There is high chance muslims will ask for forgiveness. Because, Muslims are always fearful from sin even if they commit, they know they have to ask for forgiveness to get rid of them, instead of their Christian brothers who believe somebody has already died for his sin and jews who think they are the God’s personal creation and will not be punished ). But the Christians and Jews will get the hell for their misdeeds (instigating sins and not asking for forgiveness) which initially seemed to be occupied by Muslim. And Quran supports this
Quran 17:15 “Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: NO BEARER OF BURDENS CAN BEAR THE BURDEN OF ANOTHER: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning).”
Quran 2: 62. Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .
So, Having the label of Jew and Christian is not enough for getting hell, you have to invent and propagate sins and forget the God and his forgiveness to get it (According to Islam). It is your problem. You believe, as you said, the way of salvation according to law,
“There are two ways of salvation (forgiveness of sins and admission into heaven) according to the law.
(1) If the law, particularly the moral part, is observed perfectly 100% then a person can attain salvation. If the whole law is fulfilled but one command is broken then it is unacceptable before the holy God. By this standard no human being can attain salvation.
(2) Salvation is given to those who come to God by having faith in His substitution/atonement provision.”
So, according to first point we know nobody can be 100% perfect. So, only way of salvation, according to law remains, is that everyone has to believe, “God killed his son, sorry, God committed suicide to atone us from our sins”. What about those follower of law before Jesus who never had such belief and those before law? Surely all will make it to hell. Isn’t it? Don’t you think it is little too barbaric on the part of God of New Testament than the God of Old Testament who killed 50,070 men for a mere crime of seeing the ark of God.
1 Samuel 6:19 And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, BECAUSE THEY HAD LOOKED INTO THE ARK OF THE LORD, even HE SMOTE OF THE PEOPLE FIFTY THOUSAND AND THREESCORE AND TEN MEN: and the people lamented, because THE LORD HAD SMITTEN [MANY] OF THE PEOPLE WITH A GREAT SLAUGHTER.
By the way brother, did Jesus say that your salvation is on the belief of my death? I challenge you to show one verse where Jesus in his life said so. How the God (?Jesus)as a prophet forgot the most important thing of his mission to teach the people of revised way of salvation. Isn’t it injustice and blaming Jesus of neglectful of his duty? Why Paul had to tell all these and that also in contradicting way to Jesus. See what Jesus said on salvation:
Matthew 5: 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your RIGHTEOUSNESS shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Brother I explained you till you could not answer on this topic before. Yes, you tried to present them before but you could not answer my counter questions. See them, and try to answer them logically with proof (you know of our logical limit, it is limited to commonsense, we don’t have that supernatural logic, so, try to be on our level).
iii. If somebody has done sin I don’t think by any logic it is acceptable that it will be inherited to his sons and daughters. It is injustice. Suppose, If my grandfather did sin e.g. lied on any occasion, should I be punished for his sins years later. It is nothing but rubbish. We don’t believe that we came to earth for the sins of Adam and Eve. I have already explained to you before. That was only a test before coming here and after they failed they were forgiven. And then sent to earth as per plan.
Quran 2:30 And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: “Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth.”…………………
then starts the test and then forgiveness …then later sent to earth.
iv. You said, “In Hebrew language ‘son of’ connotes ‘in the order of.’ Therefore, Jesus is the Son of God in the sense that he is in the order of God. The title ‘Son of God’ has been conferred to him even before his birth as human baby to Mary. He is both fully human and fully divine. His body was created and had a beginning, but the one who lived in that body had no beginning because He was not created.”
My response:
a. Another gymnastic, this time with Hebrew language. Whole New Testament is in Greek, the original Hebrew is not even known. How come you say the word in Hebrew was ‘son of’, because actual word is not even traceable? Suppose for argument sake I agree with you that in Hebrew language “son of God” means “in the order of God”. Then there are many others also “in order of God” (many from the Old Testament as well, which is there in Hebrew itself).
e.g.1John3: 2Beloved, now are we THE SONS OF GOD, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Roman8:14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are THE SONS OF GOD.
Deutronomy 14: 1Ye [are] THE CHILDREN OF THE LORD YOUR GOD: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
Exodus 4:22 22And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, THUS SAITH THE LORD, ISRAEL [IS] MY SON, [even] my firstborn:
So, in bible, God has sons by tons. Isn’t it? So, if these sons actually mean “in order of God”, then how many are there in order of God.
b. Jesus was fully human and fully God:
Did Jesus inform you? Where is it written in Bible that Jesus was fully human and fully God? Yes, Jesus was fully human like us. Even your Bible says so,
See Hebrews 2: 17 Therefore he had to be MADE LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN EVERY RESPECT, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people.
Can’t you see it is written “in every respect” he was made Human. So he can’t be God because then he would not be in every respect like human and another point, he was made human (created being). And we know he got birth from Mary’s womb. Can’t you read? Truly speaking you read something but understand something else.
c. You said, “I don’t want to repeat my explanations again and again. This is mainly because my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ has warned me in the Bible, “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces” (Matthew 7:6). At some point I need to follow this Jesus’ command.”
My response: But brother you disobeyed your savior again at this point and started repeating same old explanation (forgetting my reply for them). By the way, according to your Bible not only me, even you, rather all non-jews (gentiles) are dogs.
Matthew 15:24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and TO CAST [IT] TO DOGS.
So, according to Jesus, he was meant for lost sheep of Israel (jews) only, and all others were dogs. Amazing savior of humanity with such concept within him! I don’t think a prophet of God that also of the status of Jesus pbuh can use such language. This is another rubbish in your book defaming my beloved prophet Jesus (pbuh).
d. So, according to you, in brief & simple straight forward language Salvation is:
We are sinful because our first parent did certain sin and also because we are involved in many sinful deeds by not obeying the commandments of God. So, in short we are bad peoples. God wanted to forgive us, so God sent his son to teach us the commandments but still we are bad, so God had no other way but to atone (gruesome penalty) somebody for our sins and for that who could be better than God’s own son or in the language of Hebrew, God himself. And God did the suicide to save us.
Isn’t it? Now see the similarity of such stupidity in the modified Fais’ story:
“…All the bad people of this city stood before the judge and claimed “oh just judge, we know we are bad people and we have done bad things, but please! do not punish us let us go! because there is one among us in our city who has never done anything bad in his whole life. infact, he has always told us to stay away from bad things, but we never listened, so please punish this man instead!!!” And so, upon hearing this, the judge had this goodly man (PROBABLY HIMSELF) quite immediately arrested and and put infront of a firing squad and given a gruesome penalty of death. The bad people were let go in return, and the bad people returned to their bad ways. THE END! : oh, did I mention the good man was THE JUDGE HIMSELF (or, the son of the judge in Hebrew language)?” …………….Modification in capitals and brackets, are mine.
Any foolish can read these two stupid stories and find out how stupid and similar (with just certain change of character and scenario) are they. But you can’t see it because you belong to such people regarding whom Jesus said:
Matthew 13:13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they SEEING SEE NOT; AND HEARING THEY HEAR NOT, NEITHER DO THEY UNDERSTAND.
Brother, Islamic salvation is very simple (I already explained to you in detail). Believe in Him and his creation and ask for sincere forgiveness. He will forgive. For god everything is easy. He needs only the wish “be” and “it is”. He doesn’t need to do all these dramas (because actually He can’t be killed) of committing suicide to forgive his creation.
e. Regarding giving the example of integer and used it for counting and measuring God:
You said: “How can I give these things to any ‘innocent/ignorant’ soul that thinks God can be added and multiplied the way we do the created things?! I will not.”
Inshallah, You will not, and probably the writer of this article and similarly inspired people will not use integer tricks to prove God as 3 but 1.
(Yes, you did try to multiply God in past, see comment 39 of yours. I’m pasting that thing here:
“ I agree, you (Muslims) can only understand 1+1+1=3, but cannot understand 1x1x1=1.”)
f. I think you need a lesson on use of infinity in mathematics and physics. Have you heard about “black hole”? Details you can take from this site and other referenced site which has also given certain religious concept related to that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity
g. Your correction and my response:
First correction- Jesus is not “a God” :
My response: Certainly, he was not “a God” rather he was “a prophet” (sent from god to us ).
Second correction—Jesus is ‘incarnated God.’ He is both fully human being and fully God. Not just one of these two, but both. Yes, as man Jesus had many limitations. But as God has no limitations;
My response: Did Jesus say he was incarnated god or forgot this also? Where in bible it is written he was fully human and fully god, contrary to it, it is written that, he was like human in every respect (it is not said except that he is god also, see Hebrews 2:17). In every walk of life, Jesus had many limitations never found to be without limitation. From where, comes the question of Jesus without limitation?
Third correction—God was not fooling people, however, even after the above explanation only fools find it hard to understand why Jesus had many limitations.
My response: What was God doing there? He is God. He can’t be killed. He can’t be tortured. Still he is showing people that he was being tortured and killed. What do you call this? Was god not fooling people? Brother you failed miserably to explain. REPEATING A POINT IS NOT AN EXPLANATION. Give the proof and logic instead of accusing others with lack of understanding (?supernatural). Truly speaking you can never give it because the religion of Jesus was to submit to his father (God) and his father was also our father (God).
Matthew 5:48 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as YOUR FATHER which is in heaven is perfect.
See Jesus is calling God as our father also.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but THE WILL OF THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME.
Here, Jesus is clear that he is one who submits his will to God (Muslim) and also he was just a sent man (prophet) from God. Why did he not say, that it is he who can do everything and he was God only in incarnated form? Wanted to fool people or probably he was fearing Jews?
Brother I am sorry if my words hurt you or any Christian brother. I had to give the logical reply with the proof.
May God guide you and me to the only Truth of only one true God.
Dear M Comforter,
To be honest, writing responses to your postings is indeed leaving me with mixed feelings. On one hand, it is exciting because this way I can expose the tireless wicked onslaughts of Islamic hypocrisy, irrationality and lies against God’s truth, the Bible. On the other hand, it is also becoming a concern to me and at times I wonder whether I am wasting my valuable time and energy in trying to get the truth into someone who is blind, biased and closed!
You wrote:
“I was waiting for “more to follow” from you, because many a question you may escape if I start commenting, as you have been doing in past. Now I realized, your “more to follow”, may be a trick to delay my response. So, I’m giving my response. But you should continue your remaining response of last comment before switching to a new comment. You should not escape as you did in past. It was almost three weeks you last wrote, I think remaining part deserves just one sitting. Don’t give excuse of lack of time. You were very prompt in the beginning but the moment, things became difficult, you started escaping the scene.”
My response:
Thanks for displaying your frustration and childish conclusions along the same lines of your previous whining and complains! If I write an immediate reply whenever time permits me then you get enraged and vent your frustration saying, “You did hard work to save your skin but only to expose yourself.” If I write a late reply due to my busy schedule (this time I had three conferences to organize and oversee) then you conclude that it may be a trick to delay your response. Even if you can’t see the truth readers do. Let me go ahead analyzing your responses to my posting 48 instead of wasting my time on your silly reasoning and childish whining.
You wrote:
“It is really unfortunate that you again started your response with a lie and continued till the end”
My response:
What else I can expect from a persistent liar other than this….? Fortunately your truthfulness that is based on the majority hadith stories which had been built up over the centuries is so evident to the readers.
You wrote:
“Next claim: My statement that, I have cleared all your objection, is a false claim.
My response: I challenge you to give me one evidence since the first comment that I escaped a topic without clearing the objection. Inshallah, I would love to answer them.”
My response:
Please give me one, just one convincing argument to my objections so far. I don’t mind even if you repost one of your previous supposed answers. Don’t throw Islamic web pages’ garbage that use Islamic logic and expect me and the readers to accept as the convincing answers to my objections. Below I am going to show you how shallow and irrational your arguments and answers are.
You wrote:
“Next claim: I was abusive:
Your evidence and my answer in CAPITALS:
Few sentences I used was abusive as following,
I said:
i. “it is in your nerves to be abusive and illogical,”: A TRUTH.
THIS IS YOUR LANGUAGE, WHICH NO READER CAN DENY IF HE HAS READ YOUR COMMENTS. SO, IF SOMEONE IS ABUSIVE AND YOU TELL WITH THE PPROOF THAT HE IS ABUSIVE, IS IT WRONG? IF SOMEBODY HAS KILLED SOMEBODY (PROVED) AND WAS CALLED A KILLER BY PEOPLE, IS IT ABUSE? BROTHER? IT IS THE TRUTH. MEND YOUR WAYS IF YOU FEEL BAD, INSTEAD OF STOPPING OTHERS FROM EXPOSING YOU.”
My response:
According to your above illustration if a somebody has ‘killed’ another somebody and that’s why the second somebody calls the first somebody a ‘killer.’ And it’s not abusive. But my point is the second somebody had almost killed the first somebody in the beginning and that’s why the first somebody did a tit for tat and killed the second somebody. Since both somebodys have committed violence to each other, why should the second somebody whine and cry like a losing child about what the first somebody has done? Maybe the second somebody is endowed with Islamic reasoning and that’s why he thinks he has a right to whine and cry. The others who are like him will definitely feel pity for this Muslim somebody and think that whatever the second somebody says now is correct and logical. Excellent example!
You wrote:
“ii. “the present day Bible is no more the God’s word,” : A TRUTH.
I HAVE PROVED, EVEN YOU ACCEPTED THAT PRESENT DAY BIBLE HAS PROBLEM IN IT. SO, HOW COME IT IS STILL A GOD’S WORD AS A WHOLE.
SEE YOUR COMMENT AGAIN : In Comment 45
You wrote:
“For Christians the Bible is God’s word.”
“The Bible is God’s word because its original sources/records were ‘inspired’ by God’s Sprit (cf. 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 2:21). ”
“The materials of the original records WERE NOT ‘IMMORTALS.’ Although they were inspired they were SUBJECTED TO DISINTEGRATION AND DESTRUCTION.”
“The Bible is God’s word because its ORIGINAL records were inspired by God’s Spirit and its message is the ORIGINAL message given by God.”
My response:
If my above statement, “The materials of the original records WERE NOT ‘IMMORTALS.’ Although they were inspired they were SUBJECTED TO DISINTEGRATION AND DESTRUCTION” is a proof to assume that the present day Bible is no more God’s word to you then the readers can understand how sound is the Islamic logic in the endJ Thanks for confirming my comments on Islamic logic. Think straight. Materials and message are two different things! My comments are on the materials, but not on the message.
(Readers, let us think about Quran in the same way. Since M Comforter is living in Islamic dream world, can he or any other Muslim say that the materials of Zaid’s Quran were ‘immortals’ and they were not subjected to disintegration and destruction? Do they convince themselves foolishly that the bones, leaves and other materials on which Muhammad’s poems were originally recorded are still in existence?! This is beyond stupidity and self-insulting to Muslim community. By the way, in order to argue foolishly they can go to any extent. Here is the Islamic testimony to the fact how a goat had eaten the so-called the oldest Quran’s material (Ibn Maja, Nikah, 36.1944, Ibn Hanbal, 5.131,132,183, 6.269)
You wrote:
“iii. “This is your deception,”
IF I EXPOSE YOUR DECEPTION AND SAY THAT IT IS YOUR DECEPTION, IS IT ABUSE? AMAZING!
E.G. YOU ARE COMING UP WITH CERTAIN CLAIM (COPIED FROM MR. SAM) AND WITHOUT GIVING PROOF ESTABLISHING IT. IS IT NOT DECEPTION? READ MY LAST COMMENT WHERE I USED THIS SENTECE IN THE COPYCAT DIALOGUING SECTION.”
My response:
While falsely assuming that you were ‘exposing’ my deception you displayed time and again your Islamic deception and yet failed to realize it. It’s a pity. In my research I use different websites that expose Islamic foolishness and hatred against the Bible. Sometimes I use their information in my posting. You just try deal with my posting if you can. Instead you resort to attacking on Bro. Sam Shamoun and his website every now and then. For your information I do my research on many websites including Muslim websites that spew hatred and lies against God’s truth. If you have any personal frustration or struggle in dealing with what Bro Sam writes on his website you may write to him directly. I don’t care. That’s between you and Sam, but why do you bring him in between in our discussions? Why do you show your hatred towards him and his excellent material on his website that exposes Islam with me? This is not only foolishness but also childish on your part. Did I ever say anything about your role model hero Dr. Zakir Naik even though you said you admire him and his crap against Christian truth? I could easily write about Zakir as a coward, fool and Satan’s magician so and so forth after reading about him in this Sakhi website itself and other Islamic websites as well. By the way, there are a number of ‘fatwas’ against this Muslim by other Muslims denouncing his poor knowledge of your religion! But that is exactly what I did not do. Don’t play diversion tricks here. If you stick to the points and our discussions that would be very helpful for both of us as well as to the readers.
You wrote:
“iv. “you believe in the satanic inspiration of your mentor Mr. Sam” A TRUTH
SEE THE WEBSITE OF MR. SAM AND YOUR PRESENTATION OF THE SAME IN THIS DEBATE AND WITH MY PROOF AGAINST THEM SINCE THE FIRST COMMENT. ANYBODY CAN SEE HOW WRONG AND MISINSPIRED (SATANIC?) YOU ARE? AND I HAVE PROVED THEM. IF YOU NEED PROOF JUST START REREADING OUR DEBATE FROM FIRST COMMENT.”
My response:
Thanks for displaying your Islamic logic again here. What else I can expect from someone who thinks of a ‘terrifying spirit’ encounter as the inspiration from God?! In addition to that you gratify yourself that you answered my objections as well as Bro Sam’s objections on his website to your Islamic faith. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you want to crack jokes like this you can do that with some other people, but not with me. By the way, take my advice and don’t play diversion tricks by pulling Bro Sam into this.
You wrote:
“v. “Bible is rubbish” A TRUTH, IF YOU SEE PRESENT DAY BIBLE WITH ALL IT’S INSINUATUION AND ALTERATION IN IT. I HAVE LISTED FEW OF THEM FOR WHICH YOU HAVE NO LOGICAL REPLY. AND IN ONE INSTANCE EVEN YOU ACCEPTED WHEN I GAVE FEW EVIDENCES HOW IT CAN’T BE GOD’S WORD. (SEE COOMMENT 42 OF YOURS)
“The materials of the original records WERE NOT ‘IMMORTALS.’ Although they were inspired they were SUBJECTED TO DISINTEGRATION AND DESTRUCTION.”
“The Bible is God’s word because its ORIGINAL records were inspired by God’s Spirit and its message is the ORIGINAL message given by God. ”
SO, I REPEAT THE PRESENT DAY BIBLE HAS MANY RUBBISHES IN IT AND IT IS NO MORE A GOD’S WORD. YES WE MUSLIMS ALSO BELIEVE THAT ORIGINAL GOSPEL WAS HOLY AND WAS GOD’S WORD. BUT WHERE IS IT? i.e. GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS. DO YOU KNOW ANY SUCH GOSPEL, I KNOW GOSPEL ACCORDING TO MATTHEW, MARK LUKE, JOHN, BARNABASS ETC.”
My response:
Well, the same old Islamic logic and foolishness. God Almighty is the one who gave us the Torah, Zabur and Injil. God Almighty is not like the Arabian deities who cannot even protect their books from being eaten by animals. He not only completed His revelation in these books but also preserved them. That’s why He is asking us to follow in the light of His revelations. (Readers, I have already exposed this Muslim’s silly reasoning above. I don’t have to repeat it again here and bombard you with more information about M Comforter’s self evident imbecility in accusing God’s books as false. May the true God deal with him)
You wrote:
“vi. “Lord Jesus Christ as only a man but not God” A TRUTH ACCORDING TO YOUR BIBLE
Hebrews 2: 17 Therefore he had to be made LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN EVERY RESPECT, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people.
CAN YOU READ, THAT JESUS WAS MADE LIKE MAN (BRETHREN) IN EVERY RESPECT? IT IS NOT SAID HE WAS MADE PART GOD AND PART HUMAN OR FULL GOD AND FULL HUMAN.
Acts 2: 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which GOD DID BY HIM in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know.
CAN YOU READ, ACCORDING TO PETER JESUS WAS NOT A ‘GOD AS MAN’ BUT ‘MAN APPROVED BY GOD (PROPHET)’.”
My response:
You wrote that Lord Jesus Christ is only man but not God according to the Bible. Please don’t read the Bible as you read Muhammad’s poems. Can you show me one verse in the Bible that says Jesus is NOT God? Again please don’t use Islamic logic to prove your point. The Bible does say that Jesus is man. If the Bible says Jesus is fully man it doesn’t automatically mean that he is NOT God. For your sake let me give you a simple example here. If I show you a glass full of water from a distance and you call it a glass of water that’s correct. But that does not automatically exclude other possible invisible dissolved elements in the glass such as sugar or salt along with the water. Humanity and deity are not mutually exclusive natures in Jesus Christ.
You wrote:
“vii. “I abused Apostle Paul by ridiculing the scripture he brought from God.” ANOTHER TRUTH ABOUT APOSTLE PAUL.
I HAVE ALREADY PROVED HOW HE SETS PERFECTLY INTO THE CRITERIA FOR JUDGING THE FALSE PROPHET (IN BIBLE). SEE COMMENT 22 point 13.
NOW, I WILL SHOW YOU AN EVIDENCE FROM YOUR BIBLE WHERE APOSTLE PAUL LIED WITH THE CIRCUMSTANCES. HERE IS THE WORDINGS OF PAUL OF THE SAME STORY IN TWO DIFFERENT PLACES.
Acts9: 3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, HEARING A VOICE, BUT SEEING NO MAN.
Acts 22 6And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9And they that were with me SAW INDEED THE LIGHT, and were afraid; but THEY HEARD NOT THE VOICE of him that spake to me. 10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
IN FIRST INSTANCE, HE IS SAYING THAT MEN WITH HIM HEARD THE VOICE BUT DID NOT SEE. AND IN SECOND INSTANCE, HE IS SAYING THE OPPOSITE THAT MEN WITH HIM DID NOT HEAR THE VOICE BUT SAW THE LIGHT.
WHO IS RIDICULING THE SCRIPTURE, ME OR MR. PAUL?”
My response:
Here you are proving your deception once
again. Based on English translation limitations you think to yourself that you proved a contradiction in Paul’s account of what happened when he had met Jesus first time.
Let me quote the same verses from the NASB translation.
“And the men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice, but seeing no one.” (Acts 9:7)
“And those who were with me beheld the light, to be sure, but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me.” (Acts 22:9)
Where is the contradiction? Obviously in the mind that is spoilt by false belief system. Based on the above clarification ‘who is ridiculing the scripture?’ The persistent liar, but not Paul.
You wrote:
“viii. “I abused Christians by accusing them of believing false teachings”
I AM PROVING AND GIVING THE LOGICAL INTERROGATION AND TELLING THEM TO FOLLOW JESUS INSTEAD OF FOLLOWING PAUL. AND TRYING TO BRING OUT THEIR MISTAKES AND FALSE BELIEF AND PROVING THEM WITH THEIR BIBLE AND LOGIC. IS IT ABUSE? I WOULD LOVE TO BE SUCH ABUSIVE. WHO KNOWS SOME OF THE INNOCENT SOULS SEE THE TRUTH AND GOD GET THEM GUIDED.
Even with these minor, not so very good words, there is enough reason to say I was decent throughout if seen in the context.
I never said such comments for Christians as you have been using thoroughly to defame Muslim e.g. “You Muslims already use little commonsense”.
I never used any bad word from my mouth for Jesus(pbuh) as you have been doing for Muhammad (pbuh)e.g. mad etc.
I never used the bad word for God as you have been doing like Arabic god etc.”
My responses:
1. No matter how many times you write “I have proved” your writings themselves display the Islamic logic and foolish conclusions. If you love this type of abuse then all that I can do is to pity your lostness.
2. Your lie is so evident in your own comment, “Even with these minor, not so very good words, there is enough reason to say I was decent throughout if seen in the context.”
3. According to your Islamic logic if the prophets of the Bible bring clarity on different doctrines and issues progressively in the Bible that is hard for you to digest. But if Muhammad says something and later changes it and then brings another revelation contradicting himself and former revelations you think that is not stupidity, deception or outrageous but Allha’s unchanging word!
4. You think you are doing a favor by not using bad words for Jesus as I have been using (I think you mean the descriptions about Muhammad that I got from your hadiths). This is another deception of yours! Why can’t you say anything bad about Jesus? Not because you are decent or willing to do a productive and meaningful dialogue as I suggested, but because Jesus is mentioned in your Quran as a prophet. Since Paul is not mentioned in the Quran you think you can make an exception to him. Yet you portray yourself that you are very decent person for not saying anything bad about Jesus. Amazing hypocrisy suitable for your faith!
My friend, please don’t mistake me when I wrote, ‘Arabic god.’ God Almighty is One and He is God of all. However, when I referred to ‘Arabic god’ I didn’t mean the God Almighty. I just mean the being that Arabic people have been venerating from even before Islam’s birth in Arabia. That’s all.
You wrote:
“Now regarding your further objections:
1. Your lie on prophet Muhammad (pbuh) with rubbishes like mad man or crazy man…
Never quote me from the books of historian, even if he happens to be Muslim. Try to quote me from the authentic sources only as you have been doing in the past. Don’t change your track if you could not materialize with authentic sources. History Books like Al- Tabari has many weakness in them and many times even writer has accepted in the book itself and many things writer has written from non-reliable historical sources (other than Quran and Sunnah). I want to repeat Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was a human being with it’s limitation. There are instances when he was wounded, sick etc. it has nothing to do with prophet hood. If in his life in certain situation (under satanic influence), he was forgetful for a very short period in his personal life, it has nothing to do with his prophet hood which according to hadiths was safe from his human limitation. Revelation was through God. It is another proof of Quran to be God’s word. And infact he cured this ailment through his prophethood…And in the beginning of revelation he had certain abnormal feeling, which he expressed in common language of people. All of a sudden a human being is seeing the angels and started getting revelation which he never faced before, ought to create certain discomfort. If I say last month in a very noisy crowd I had a severe headache or feeling as if I became mad, does it mean I am a mad or mad for even certain period. It is called as deception. This is your misquotation and mispresentation.
Does it mean that if anybody occasionally forgets certain action or thing, he is mad? Or, if somebody feels discomfort in certain conditions and expresses as above, he becomes mad?
Few points regarding Quran: Give this book to any person (translated in his language) and give Bible to the same person (beware the person should be adult or chapters like Ezekial 23 should be removed before giving) and ask him which book looks as if it is written by human (with evident human touch in it ) and which book sounds like perfect guidance book in a very unique style (far from human touch). No prize for guessing. You offered good way of dialoguing but failed to listen to my suggestion on good way of dialoguing. Very unfortunate! May God guide you towards logical reasoning. May God make me still better in approach so that the hardness of the heart can be melted in much easier way. Amen.
I never attacked Bible or anybody. It is your bible which is contradicting and attacking you and your belief of Christianity, Jesus or Paul. You make me wait a lot on pretext of being busy. Brother, I have a very hectic schedule still I make use of time and give prompt reply. One of the thing which I really love is your comment. Because, it gives me opportunity to present the fact and expose deception. The moment I see your comment on Sakshi, I feel an inner joy and at the earliest opportunity sit to write. I would have really appreciated if you would have given any fitting or logical response. But contrary to this, it contains abuse, misquotation and mispresentation to hide the face. May God give you courage to face the Truth. Amen.”
My responses:
You touched upon some important issues here. Let me try to focus on some of them as precisely as I can.
1. “Your lie on prophet Muhammad (pbuh) with rubbishes like mad man or crazy man”
I couldn’t help but feel sorry for you. I showed you clearly why I described Muhammad as mad or crazy man according to your own Muslim sources. But, as is often the case, you get hurt and throw the blame on me. I suspected of this reaction from you long ago and that’s why I suggested a decent way of dialoguing but you declined to accept it. Therefore, you will continue to bear with this unmasked exposure of Muhammad and Islam in their true colors because that’s what you have opted for. However, as readers can see themselves these supposed bad things about Muhammad have been drawn from Islamic sources!
2. “Never quote me from the books of historian, even if he happens to be Muslim. Try to quote me from the authentic sources only as you have been doing in the past… History Books like Al- Tabari has many weakness in them and many times even writer has accepted in the book itself and many things writer has written from non-reliable historical sources (other than Quran and Sunnah).”
The so-called Allah’s book, the final revelation to Muslims, the perfect book, the Quran some how failed miserably to give the world the details of the so-called Muslims’ last prophet Muhammad. In order to find the true Muhammad or the true colors of Muhammad one needs to go to the earliest sources, but not to the latest stories or commentaries or glorified accounts of modern day Muslim apologists’ websites that are doctored to improve his image in this modern world. Some of the earliest sources of Islam are ‘Sira’ by ibn Ishaq (750AD) edited and abridged by ibn Hisham (830AD), ‘hadiths’ by Bukhari (850AD), Muslim etc., ‘Tariq’ and ‘Tafsir’ by Al-Tabari (900AD). If you choose to ignore the harsh facts about Muhammad’s true nature in the Muslim historians’ books because they are so repulsive then that’s not others’ problem, it is Islam’s problem, it is Muhammad’s problem and it is your problem! Your reaction to these harsh realities of your faith bears witness to the fact that you are narrow and closed to objective and honest research into your faith. You are under the illusion that the Quran is God’s word, but I am not. You discredit the worst history of Muhammad because it hurts you, but I don’t.
3. “I want to repeat Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was a human being with it’s limitation. There are instances when he was wounded, sick etc. it has nothing to do with prophet hood. If in his life in certain situation (under satanic influence), he was forgetful for a very short period in his personal life, it has nothing to do with his prophet hood which according to hadiths was safe from his human limitation.”
Here you think satanic influences have happened to Muhammad only in certain situations, but those who read his biography and other early Islamic sources understand that it was most of the time, if not all the time. Again you think it has nothing to do with his prophethood. That’s your opinion. Later we will see how it matters a lot to honest researcher of Islam.
4. “All of a sudden a human being is seeing the angels and started getting revelation which he never faced before, ought to create certain discomfort.”
Yes all of a sudden if a human being is seeing the angels he will be shocked but would come back to normalcy with that angel’s comforting message if that angel was a genuine angel of God. However, if that angel is a masquerading angel of Satan then the encounter with such a spirit would leave that person not in just some ‘discomfort’ rather in fear, confusion, doubts and suicidal thoughts.
5. “If I say last month in a very noisy crowd I had a severe headache or feeling as if I became mad, does it mean I am a mad or mad for even certain period. It is called as deception. This is your misquotation and mispresentation. Does it mean that if anybody occasionally forgets certain action or thing, he is mad? Or, if somebody feels discomfort in certain conditions and expresses as above, he becomes mad?”
My friend, if someone says, ‘I had severe headache in a very noisy crowd’ then we won’t conclude that he was a mad person. However, if someone says, ‘I feel I am becoming mad or loosing my mind’ you got to take it seriously. If a person is ‘bewitched’ and as a result of it if he behaves abnormally then people around that person call him a crazy person even if a Muslim like you prefer to call him a prophet. In our city a young man fell in love with a high caste girl. When the family of the girl came to know about this affair they got enraged and with the help of a magician they managed to cast a spell on him. The young man became bewitched by an evil spirit and began to behave abnormally which made people to start calling him a madman. Whether it is for a short period or long period, whether it is a natural madness or forced madness still it is madness or craziness whether you like it or not.
6. “Few points regarding Quran: Give this book to any person (translated in his language) and give Bible to the same person (beware the person should be adult or chapters like Ezekial 23 should be removed before giving) and ask him which book looks as if it is written by human (with evident human touch in it ) and which book sounds like perfect guidance book in a very unique style (far from human touch).”
Well said, here we go. (1) A former Muslim who used to read Quran and memorized parts of it happened to read the New Testament (The Injil) in his language. That very first time he was touched by its message and began to weep with joy for he could understand its message to be so personal and later gave his life to Jesus Christ and became a follower of the Lord Jesus and now bringing other Muslims to the truth. I had the privilege of teaching him the Biblical lessons for sometime in the past. In his words and experience the Quran killed him with the fear of the hellfire and the Bible gave him new life and joy through the Saviour that was sent by God Almighty. His comments were to the effect that the Quran can’t even be the production of a sane person let alone God. But unfortunately Muslims like you think that that is its specialty and continue to admire it and try to emulate Muhammad who supposed to produced it with the help of a ‘terrifying spirit.’ (2) Sometime ago a Muslim young man offered me to study both the Quran and the Bible. I agreed to that and we studied them together for several weeks. One day he lifted both the books and dropped the Quran to the floor right in front of his feet! He told me that that book could not be God’s book. Sorry, no offense. These were not my words, but a Muslim’s. Later he studied the Bible carefully and found forgiveness and salvation in the Bible. Now he is living not in fear of deceptive Quranic Allah’s final decision, but in the blessed hope of the future in God’s presence.
7. “I never attacked Bible or anybody. It is your bible which is contradicting and attacking you and your belief of Christianity, Jesus or Paul. You make me wait a lot on pretext of being busy. Brother, I have a very hectic schedule still I make use of time and give prompt reply. One of the thing which I really love is your comment.”
What a blatant lie! It fits your faith. By the way, I am very happy to know that you love my comment and look forward to it. Let me assure you that I won’t disappoint you in this. Keep waiting…even if it is delayed sometimes.
8. “I would have really appreciated if you would have given any fitting or logical response.”
My sincere advice to you is first try to understand what a fitting and logical response means. It does not mean Islamic way of reasoning! As long as you don’t understand this you will continue in your blissful ignorance.
Dear Mr. M Comforter,
You wrote:
“2. Regarding “Playing with words and changing the meaning to just opposite of what it means.” Me or You?
Brother, there are two ways of explaining the truth i.e. style of Muslim Comforter and style of Christian Adil. Let’s see the difference:
There is a dark red paper…”
My response:
Great! Readers know who is doing that. Now let us see the style of M Comforter in explaining the truth and how it matches his blood and dark paper.
You wrote:
“Now I will give you an example also.
Mr. Christian Adil, said death means growing (by turning the light off). I said and exposed him. See the following.”
My response:
I feel sorry for your ignorance in equating my explanation as ‘death means growing!’ Well, let’s examine the lines of your argument. By the way, I don’t have to turn the light off to the blind! In reality I tried to switch on but the blind M Comforter heard the noise of the switch and concludes that I tried to turn the light off. That’s sad. Before examining the Islamic wisdom hidden in the lines of your argument let me give the following explanation to our readers.
*Beginning of my explanation to the readers*
Modern day dictionary defines the death as the end of life or the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism. However, in order to understand in what sense the word ‘death/die’ has been used in the Bible we don’t go to the language dictionaries (Readers, please note that Muslims like M Comforter would go to language dictionaries since that’s the typical of Islamic rationality!), but need to go to the Bible itself.
The word ‘death/die’ has been used in the Bible mainly to denote three types states, namely, Physical Death (Genesis 21:16; Exodus 19:12) where body, soul and spirit get separated and subsequently the body itself gets into disintegration; Spiritual Death (Genesis 2:17; Matthew 8:22; Ephesians 2:1) where human spirit gets separated from God’s spirit and loses the fellowship with God; Eternal Death (Revelations 20:14) where human being is eternally separated from God’s presence. In all these the basic meaning is ‘separation’ or ‘disintegration’ or ‘losing original condition.’ The word ‘death’ is also used metaphorically in the Bible (2 Corinthians 4:11).
With the forgoing in mind let us see the verse that M Comforter tried to understand with his rationality:
“I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and DIES, it remains only a single seed. But if it DIES, it produces many seeds.” John 12:24.
The way it could be understood with the help of Islamic rationality: “I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and DIES [scientifically means ceasing from being alive], it remains only a single seed. But if it DIES [scientifically means ceasing from being alive], it produces many seeds.”
The way it is understood with the help of the Biblical exegesis: “I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and DIES [gets separated/disintegrates/looses its original condition], it remains only a single seed. But if it DIES [disintegrates], it produces many seeds.”
*End of my explanation to the readers*
You wrote and my response together:
(Readers, please note that M Comforter’s comments and my original response are in small letters and my latest comments are in CAPITAL letters)
*Beginning of M Comforter comments and my appropriate comments*
“In comment 39, there was a verse regarding scientific error of Bible (ACCORDING TO THE BLIND!)
John 12:24 “I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and DIES, it remains only a single seed. But if it DIES, it produces many seeds.”
And you replied (tried to turn off the light), (SORRY IF YOU HAVE PERCEIVED LIKE THAT IT’S JUST BECAUSE OF YOUR ORIGINAL BLINDNESS. THAT’S NOT MY FAULT!)
a. Where did Jesus say, “The dead seed produce new seeds”? This is what the corrupt mind of Osama fabricated.
b. What is Jesus trying to convey to his hearers here? If only a wheat-seed falls to the ground and does not remain as it is (a single seed), but looses itself as the single seed (dies) in the process of producing life then we can see a new plant.
c. One can see a plant growing out of the ground after a few days of planting a seed in the ground. After the plant comes out, does the original seed still remain intact? No not at all. It is gone or lost its original state that is what the ‘death of a seed’ referring to here!
d. The ‘death of a seed’ here does not mean as Osama (or M Comforter) would have us believed. When Jesus said that the seed ‘dies’ (in the process) it does not necessarily mean the soul or spirit of the seed leaves its body and goes to one of its places (according to hadith one place in heaven and one place in hell!).
e. To understand the above verse one needs to look into the context and relevance. I don’t mean you have to go to some STUPID stories collected by some STUPIDS. Look into the book itself.
f. According to Jesus the ‘death of the seed’ occurs during the process of producing the new plant, but not prior to it.
So, where is the so-called ‘scientific false?’ Perhaps in the minds of ‘wise’ Muslims! And I exposed you (just turned the light on) (PERHAPS IN YOUR DREAM WORLD),
My response in comment 42 (just turned the light on, everything was evident), (LET’S SEE WHETHER YOU TURNED THE LIGHT ON IN YOUR DREAMS OR IN THE ROOM…)
i. You wrote: Where did Jesus say, “The dead seed produce new seeds”? …(I PITY YOU! YOU CAN’T EVEN SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SENTENCES ‘THE DEAD SEED PRODUCES NEW SEEDS’ AND ‘A SEED CAN PRODUCE NEWS SEED IF IT DIES.’ THE FIRST ONE IS NOT WHAT JESUS SAID, BUT THE SECOND ONE IS.)
My response: Can’t you read? Let me write it again for you , “But if it DIES, it produces many seeds.”(THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT I AM DRIVING AT. JESUS IS NOT POINTING TO A ‘DEAD’ SEED LYING THERE, BUT TO A SEED THAT IS HEALTHY AND SAYS ‘IF IT DIES’ IMPLYING IN THE PROCESS OF PRODUCING SPROUT IT LOSSES ITS ORIGINAL CONDITION)
ii, iii, & iv. So, you mean death doesn’t mean death rather growing. (WELL, AS A TRUE MUSLIM YOU ARE JUMPING INTO ISLAMIC LOGICAL CONCLUSIONS. BUT AN HONEST PERSON WHO WANTS TO KNOW THE TRUTH WON’T. WHY? TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE FOLLOWING EXPLANATION IF YOU CAN…
IN THE BIBLICAL SENSE THE DEATH MEANS ‘SEPERATION’ OR ‘DISINTEGRATION’ OR ‘LOSING ORIGINAL CONDITION.’ IN GENESIS ADAM AND EVE WERE WARNED NOT TO EAT A CERTAIN TREE’S FRUIT. IF THEY EAT THAT FRUIT THAT SAME DAY THEY WOULD ‘DIE.’ THEY IGNORED GOD’S WARNNING AND ATE THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT. AS A RESULT THEY DID DIE THE SAME DAY, THAT IS TO SAY SPIRITUALLY BUT NOT PHYSICALLY. THEY WERE SEPERATED FROM GOD AND LOST THEIR ORIGINAL CONDITION IN WHICH THEY HAD A UNIQUE FELLOWSHIP WITH THEIR CREATOR. THE SAME CAN BE UNDERSTOOD IN “WHILE YOU WERE DEAD IN YOUR TRESPASES AND SINS…” (EPHESIANS 2:1). FOR THE SAME REASON JESUS SAID, “FOLLOW ME, LET THE DEAD BURY THEIR DEAD.” (MATTHEW 8:22) ONLY MUSLIMS LIKE YOU WOULD JUMP TO SOME FOOLISH CONCLUSIONS WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING THE WIDER MEANING OF THE WORD ‘DEATH’ IN THE BIBLE.)
My response:
Something like fetus growing from zygote to a baby. You mean Zygote died in this process. Keep your intelligence with you. Brother, zygote or seed grows to become baby or plant. They don’t die. Don’t teach us your supernatural English. (IF YOU KEEP CONFUSING FETUS, ZYGOTE AND BABY WITH SEEDS AND PLANTS I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT YOU WILL CONTINUE IN YOUR IGNORANCE FOREVER. BY THE WAY, HOW CAN I TEACH ANYTHING TO SOMEONE WHO IS SO STUBBORN AND LACKS EVEN PROPER READING SKILLS? HERE I AM NOT TRYING TO TEACH YOU ANY SUPERNATURAL ENGLISH, BUT SIMPLE EXEGESIS. UNFORTUNATELY YOU ARE DESTINED TO CONTINUE IN YOUR ISLAMIC ENGLISH AND RATIONALITY! BEST OF LUCK!!)
vi. You said: According to Jesus the ‘death of the seed’ occurs during the process of producing the new plant, but not prior to it.
My response: Can’t you read? Let me write it again for you , “But if it DIES, it produces many seeds.” Can you see here it is written clearly that prior to producing seed it dies i.e. if it dies, it produces many seeds.
(OK, LET ME GIVE YOU A LAST TRY TO SEE IF IT GETS INTO YOUR BRAIN. “BUT IF IT DIES [GETS SEPERATED/DISINTEGRATES/LOSES ITS ORIGINAL CONDITION], IT PRODUCES MANY SEEDS.” ‘IF IT DIES’ DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN ‘AFTER IT IS DEAD.’ IN GENERAL A SEED INCLUDES THREE MAJOR PARTS—SEED COAT, AN EMBRYO, NUTRIENTS. IN THE PROCESS OF GERMINATION FIRST THE EMBRYO TAKES WATER IN AND SWEELS. AS A RESULT THE SEED COAT GETS SEPERATED. THE EMBRYO OF THE SEED GROWS BY UTILIZING THE NUETRIENTS THAT ARE AVAILABLE IN THE SEED. ONCE THE ROOTS AND LEAVES ARE DEVELOPED ENOUGH FROM THE EMBRYO AND THE NEUTRIENTS ARE EXHAUSTED THE PARTS OF THE SEED THAT CONTAIN THE NEUTRIENTS WOULD FALL OFF OR DISINTEGRATE. BETWEEN THE TIME THE SEED IS PLANTED IN THE SOIL AND THE EMERGENCE OF A SEEDLING THE PROCESS OF SEPERATION/DISINTEGRATION/LOSING THE ORIGINAL CONDITION TAKES PLACE. LATER IT PRODUCES MANY SEEDS NOT IMMEDIATELY AFTER ITS GERMINATION. IF YOU CAN’T SEE AND UNDERSTAND ALL THIS WE KNOW THE REASON WHY YOU CAN’T. IT’S BECAUSE OF YOUR BLINDNESS! EVEN IF THERE IS A THOUSAN WATTS BULB GLOWING IN THE ROOM YOU CANNOT SEE. SORRY NO ONE CAN HELP YOU MY FRIEND!)
Then you said: So, where is the so-called ‘scientific false?’ Perhaps in the minds of ‘wise’ Muslims! (EXACTLY!)
My response: writer of Bible is saying that if one seed (kernel of wheat) DIES (scientifically means ceasing from being alive, i.e. they can no longer perform any metabolic function, it never means transforming or growing), it produces many seeds. (SO ACCORDING TO YOUR ISLAMIC REASONING THE WORD ‘DIES’ IN THE BIBLE SHOULD BE DEFINED SCIENTIFICALLY BUT NOT IN ITS BIBLICAL SENSE?! THAT’S WHY I WROTE MUSLIMS HAVE LITTLE COMMONSENSE AND HERE YOU BEING A MUSLIM PROVING MY POINT SPECTACULARLY!!)
So, if it ceases from being alive (ACCORDING TO YOU, BUT NOT ACCORDING TO JESUS), it can never produce further seeds. This statement ( i.e. a single dead seed after it dies produce many seeds) is scientifically a false statement (ACCORDING TO ISLAMIC REASONING AND LOGIC!). I think even a WISE Christian will not accept that (through his comprehension), he also needs some supernatural power to understand this. Likewise many more. Readers can read the debate from first comment. (READERS, THIS KIND OF ARGUMENTS ‘WISE’ MUSLIMS HAVE TO OFFER TO PROVE GOD’S WORD AS CORRUPTED! MAY THE LORD DEAL APPROPRIATELY WITH THIS MUSLIM AT THE EARLIEST)
John 12:24 “I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and DIES [DISINTEGRATES], it remains only a single seed. But if it DIES [DISINTEGRATES], it produces many seeds.”
*End M Comforter comments and my appropriate comments*
Isn’t it amazing now M Comforter continues to believe that he showed the blood and the paper are of the same color! Who can make him understand that he was actually looking at the dark paper with his blind eyes and later imagines in his mind (like Muhammad when he was bewitched) that he was switching on the light in the room?! Funny, isn’t it?
What’s more, M Comforter’s definition of ‘death’ proves his Quran wrong because it contained the scientific blunder he mistakenly attributed to the Bible. Here it is…
“And God sends down rain from the skies, and gives therewith life to the earth after its DEATH (scientifically means ceasing from being alive, i.e. they can no longer perform any metabolic function, it never means transforming or growing): verily in this is a Sign for those who listen.” (Sura 16:65)
M Comforter’s definition of ‘death’ proves beyond any shadow of doubt that the Quran is clearly wrong here because it contains a glaring scientific blunder! According to the Quran before rains come down (everything would be gray and dry during summer) the earth is DEAD, no life! Both scientifically and commonsensically it is undisputable that even the dry grass or roots or the seeds that lay dormant on the ground until rain causes them to sprout have life! But the supposedly all knowing Quranic Allah failed to know this simple truth and calls the earth DEAD and Muslims believe that. Muslims believe that the Quran is from God while it was a production of mere human being, Muhammad.
You wrote:
“Now regarding Mr. Adil’s objection:
A) Quran says Allah is the best of deceivers (Allahu khayru al-makireena)– S. 3:54; cf. 8:30
Quran says Allah cheats (wahuwa khadiaauhum)—Sura 4:142
My response:
First of all see page2 comment -18 (point 6-iv & 7) you wrote similar thing (I’m just taking the quotation, which quoted)
“And (the unbelievers) SCHEMED and PLANNED, and Allah SCHEMED (makr=deceitfulness or dishonesty) also, and the BEST OF SCHEMERS is Allah. (S. 3:54)
“The hypocrites—they seek to deceive Allah. But it is Allah who deceive them.” (Sura 4:142)
Now let me quote,
FROM MOHSIN KHAN
3: 54. And they (disbelievers) PLOTTED [to kill ‘Iesa (Jesus)], and Allâh PLANNED too. And Allâh is the BEST OF THE PLANNERS.
8: 30. And (remember) when the disbelievers PLOTTED against you (O Muhammad ) to imprison you, or to kill you, or to get you out (from your home, i.e. Makkah); they were plotting and Allâh too was PLANNING, and Allâh is the BEST OF THE PLANNERS.
FROM YUSUF ALI
3:54 And (the unbelievers) PLOTTED and PLANNED, and God too PLANNED, and the BEST OF PLANNERS is God.
8:30 Remember how the Unbelievers PLOTTED against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and GOD TOO PLANS; BUT THE BEST OF PLANNERS IS GOD.
Now, you would have understood why I quoted all these. But for innocent readers, I want to explain. Nowhere in Quran, God has written He is THE BEST OF DECEIVER (superlative degree) as Mr. Christian Adil deceitfully pointed above i.e.
“Quran says Allah is the best of deceivers (Allahu khayru al-makireena)– S. 3:54; cf. 8:30”
Even in past Mr.Christian Adil, quoted rightly, but today intentionally he misquoted. You can see above, in major translations, it is translated as “the best of planner” not “the best of deceiver”. Yes, the word planner (makr-) is usually used in negative sense. But, it is written about bad people’s planning (of course in bad way) to damage good people or prophet of God. And, God is a best of planner (of course badly for bad peoples) to dissolve their strategy and save his good people.”
My response:
Fantastic! Your unsuccessful translation gymnastics can’t fool honest readers. Here are the reasons why…
1. The word ‘makr’ (m-k-r) in Arabic means according to Arabic Dictionary Al-Mawrid: to deceive, delude, cheat, double-cross, dupe, and cunning, craftiness, slyness, wiliness, double-dealing, deception, deceit, artifice, and guile.
2. In the same verses and in the same given contexts the same Arabic word ‘m-k-r’ (makr) has been employed to refer to the unbelievers/hypocrites as well as Allah (Sura 3:54; 8:30) with a clear comparative relationship. But faithful Muslims wanting to save the Quranic Allah from unpleasant qualities translated the same word ‘m-k-r’ in two different ways in the same verse, Sura 3:54–“And they (disbelievers) PLOTTED/MAKR [to kill Iesa (Jesus)], and Allah PLANNED/MAKR too. And Allah is the Best of the PLANNERS/MAKR” (translation by Al-Hilali & Khan). Here Muslim apologists and translators display their deception in order to hide Quranic Allah’s deception. It’s a very good service to the Arabic god from his faithful followers.
3. You boasted, “Nowhere in Quran, God has written He is THE BEST OF DECEIVER.” But the fact is it is right there in the Quran for the whole world to see except Muslims. If you choose to close your eyes to that fact you may, but the readers don’t. The word ‘makr’ (m-k-r) that is in 3:54 is clearly deceiving. Just because the pious Muslim translators translated it deceitfully it doesn’t change the fact. (Readers, please check the meaning of this word [LL, V7, p: 256] as ‘to practice deceit’ for yourself at: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/14_MIIM.htm). By the way, in the next section unwittingly you wrote, ““ makr-” (planner or schemer or plotter) or “khada-” (deceive or cheat). So even if you use the word ‘schemer’ for ‘makr’ it still proves the same thing. ‘Makr’ does not mean a planner like an Engineer planning in a positive sense. If you are ok with schemer, the meaning of schemer is the one who makes dishonest or bad plans. That’s what ‘deceiver’ does! Can’t you see the same problem haunting you even with ‘schemer’? So the Quran does unmistakably say that Allah is the best of DECEIVER/SCHEMER! (Sura 3:54)
4. The Arabic word ‘m-k-r’ (makr) means deception and that’s exactly what Allah did according to the Quran in Sura 4:157:
“And because of their saying (in boast), “We killed Messiah ‘Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah,”-but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of ‘Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. ‘Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]”
5. A Muslim enquirer raised some important questions on a Muslim blog regarding Allah’s deception. According to this Muslim enquirer the first Caliph reportedly said, “Abu Bakr (ra) said, I would not feel safe from the plotting (makr) of Allah even if I put my foot in Jannah.” (you can see both the questions and the Islamic answers at http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/quran-hadith-prophet-muhammad/deception-allah-3187). The information of this hadith is given in the book by Khalid Muhammad Khalid, Successors of the Messenger, translated by Muhammad Mahdi al-Sharif [Dar al-Kotob al-Ilmiyah, Beirut Lebanon, 2005], Book One: Abu Bakr Has Come, p. 99.
In essence even the best friend of Muhammad who was supposedly given the assurance of entry into Islamic heaven understood the implications of the Quranic Allah’s deception (makr)! How much more today’s Muslims should be worried about this particular aspect of Quranic Allah’s character?
Far be such a description from the Almighty. The above quality is not God Almighty’s, but of the devil. In short the description of God in the Quran is an evil plot of the devil the liar against the truth of God Almighty!
You wrote:
“Now regarding Quran 4:142
FROM MOHSIN KHAN
Verily, the hypocrites seek to DECEIVE Allâh, but it is He Who DECEIVES them. And when they stand up for As-Salât (the prayer), they stand with laziness and to be seen of men, and they do not remember Allâh but little.
FROM YUSUF ALI
The Hypocrites – they think they are OVER-REACHING God, but He will OVER- REACH them: When they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen of men, but little do they hold God in remembrance;
I think translation of Yusuf Ali is enough to make you understand the meaning of “ to deceive” here, i.e. to over-reach (even though in the bad way to counter the bad peoples). Let me give an example: there is a criminal gang planning to deceive the patrolling police inspector and kill him. But the intelligent inspector sensed the plot and he planned and deceived them and foiled their plan and caught them. Do you think the police inspector was a deceiver only because he deceived bad peoples from committing crime?
Don’t play with words. You can’t misquote and escape.
I challenge you to quote one verse from Quran where God USED THE WORD “ makr-” (planner or schemer or plotter) or “khada-” (deceive or cheat), for good peoples. I know you can never do this. What you can do is to quote few stories (from Mr. Sam), in which God SEEMS TO misguide or deceive people. Yes, I want my God to be bad against such enemy of muslims or bad peoples. Isn’t it the same Jesus wanted, when he preached and people did not follow him after all his effort (according to you).
Mark 4: 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND [THEIR] SINS SHOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM.
I repeat my challenge, quote me one verse from Quran where God USED THE WORD “ makr-” (planner or schemer or plotter) or “khada-” (deceive or cheat), for good peoples.”
My response:
1. Before issuing a challenge you better think through it first! The Quran doesn’t use the words ‘makr’ and ‘khada’ in reference to good people. If it had been using them in reference to good people then there seems to be far less problem to have these words associated with Allah. Since they are not used for good people I am showing you how foolishly the Quran has used these words in reference to bad people as well as Allah implying some similarities between them.
The words ‘makr’ (deceiver) or ‘khada-’ (to deceive or cheat) have been used to refer to unbelievers, hypocrites and liars because that’s what they are and that’s what they deserve to be called. Now, please try to understand the problem here, the question you need to address is why in the world the so-called Allah’s word puts Allah in the same category of bad people by describing Allah with the same descriptive words ‘makr’ and ‘khada-’ that should only be used for bad people.
What did you do with all your quotations above? You only confirmed what I contend. Thanks for that. (Readers, Mr. M Comforter did my job and proved that Muhammad’s Quran has degraded God by describing him with the descriptions that are appropriate for bad people and more so the devil).
2. You gave an interesting example to justify Quranic Allah’s deception and as if that’s not enough you even asked some questions. First let’s examine your example and later we can see whether your questions are worth considering. Here it is, “there is a criminal gang planning to deceive the patrolling police inspector and kill him. But the intelligent inspector sensed the plot and he planned and deceived them and foiled their plan and caught them. Do you think the police inspector was a deceiver only because he deceived bad peoples from committing crime?”
I agree that the people involved in criminal gangs are ‘deceivers (makr and khada),’ illegals , work for themselves and thereby they do things that characterize them. Whereas the police are recruited, trained and paid to work with the authority of the state to stand for the truth and justice. However, both the groups are fallen into sin and are therefore imperfect. Sometime ago I was cheated by some police in two different occasions in two different Muslim dominated countries in Asia! I am sure even in India this can be true. Whether it is a police or a criminal if he lies it is lying, if he cheats it is cheating, if he deceives it is deceiving. Since both groups are imperfect and have lots of limitations in dealing with situation like what you described in your example we understand on a pragmatic level that it’s alright to some extent. But if the same patrolling police inspector were endowed with ‘all-power,’ ‘all-wisdom,’ ‘all-presence,’ ‘all-perfect’ qualities and yet resorts to do the same exact thing what you described then there will be a big problem. No normal person would accept the action of that police inspector because if he were an all-perfect and all-powerful being he could find a solution to deal with that situation without resorting to the same ‘deception’ (makr) the criminal gang was employing. God is the perfect, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-present being. He doesn’t stoop down to the level of criminal gang in order to deal with them. If evil people plot or use deception against God then the Almighty God is able to expose that and thwart it and punish them, but does not necessarily have to resort to a similar thing that of the evil people are accused of i.e deception. (Readers, please form your own answers now to the questions that I am not bothering to answer here, mainly to save space! By the way, M Comforter gave me an advice, “Don’t play with words. You can’t misquote and escape.” I hope I did not escape from anything here and showed you all clearly who is playing with words.)
3. Later you went to the extent of saying, “Yes, I want my God to be bad against such enemy of muslims or bad peoples. Isn’t it the same Jesus wanted, when he preached and people did not follow him after all his effort (according to you).”
This kind of misplaced fanatic belief in a false deity cannot make that deity a true deity. By the way, this is not what Jesus wanted as you had understood it.
4. You used Mark 4:11 in an effort to justify the Quranic Allah’s deception. Let me give the Biblical quotes and Quranic quotes so that the readers themselves can make out the meaning rather than you or I giving the meaning…
BIBLICAL QUOTES:
“Behold, I have found only this, that God MADE MEN (PEOPLE) UPRIGHT, but they have sought out many devices.” (Ecclesiastes 7:29)
“I will declare your righteousness and your deeds, but they will not profit you.” (Isaiah 57:12)
“For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment.” (Isaiah 64:6)
“Behold my servant (Jesus)…who has believed our message?…surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken. Smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him. And by His scourging we are healed…the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.” (Isaiah 52:13-53:6)
“Just as the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:28)
“For He (Jesus Christ) will be delivered to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon, and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him, and the third day He will rise again.” (Luke 18:32-33)
“For not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.” (Romans 2:13)
“For whosoever keeps the whole Law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” (James 2:10)
“Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.” (Romans 3:20)
“For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” (Romans 10:4)
“But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fal short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 3:21-24)
“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL MEN (PEOPLE) TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.” (1Timothy 2:3-6)
“That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.” (Romans 10:9)
“If WE CONFESS OUR SINS, He (God) is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all the unrighteousness.” (1John 1:9)
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)
“Then in the fourth generation they (Abraham’s descendants) shall return here (Palestine), for the iniquity of the Amorites is NOT YET COMPLETE.” (Genesis 15:16)
“But the Pharisees and the lawyers REJECTED GOD’S PURPOSE FOR THEMSELVES, not having been baptized by John.” (Luke 7:30)
“Then he explained to them, “You have been permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others have not. To those who are open to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But to those who are not listening, even what they have will be taken away from them. That is why I tell these stories, because people see what I do, but they don’t really see. They hear what I say, but they don’t really hear, and they don’t understand. This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: ‘You will hear my words, but you will not understand; you will see what I do, but you will not perceive its meaning. For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes— so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them.’” (Matthew 13:11-15)
QURANIC QUOTES:
“He whom Allah leadeth, he indeed is led aright, while he whom Allah sendeth astray—they indeed are losers. And surely, We have created many of the jinns and mankind for Hell. They have hearts wherewith they understand not, they have eyes wherewith they see not, and they have ears wherewith they hear not (the truth). They are like cattle, nay even more astray; those! They are the heedless ones. (Quran 7:178-179)
“That is because they believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed, so they understand not.” (Quran 63:3)
“Allah leads astray those whom He pleases, and guides whom He pleases. He is the Mighty, the Wise.” (Quran 14:4)
“Had Allah willed He could have made you (all) one nation, but He sendeth whom He will astray and guideth whom He will, and ye will indeed be asked of what ye used to do.” (Quran16:93)
“Of the men He hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth and He punishes whom He pleaseth.” (Quran 5:20)
“If We [i.e. Allah] had so willed, we could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance; but the word from me will come true, ‘I will fill hell with Jinns and men all together’.” (Quran 32:13)
“What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him” (Quran 4:88)
“And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.” (Quran 17:16)
“Say: ‘Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector’: and on Allah let the Believers put their trust.” (Quran 9:51)
Hadith Quotes in support of the above Quranic quotes:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. ‘O Adam! You are our father who disappointed us and turned us out of Paradise.’ Then Adam said to him, ‘O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action which Allah had written in my fate forty years before my creation?’ So Adam confuted Moses, Adam confuted Moses,” the Prophet added, repeating the Statement three times. (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 78, Number 685)
Abu al-Aswad reported that ‘Imran b Husain asked him: What is your view, what the people do today in the world, and strive for, is it something decreed for them or preordained for themor will their fate in the Hereafter be determined by the fact that their Prophets brought them teaching which they did not act upon? I said: Of course, it is something which is predetermined for them and preordained for them. He (further) said: Then, would it not be an injustice (to punish them)? I felt greatly disturbed because of that, and said: Everything is created by Allah and lies in His Power. He would not be questioned as to what He does, but they would be questioned; thereupon he said to me: May Allah have mercy upon you, I did not mean to ask you but for testing your intelligence. Two men of the tribe of Muzaina came to Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah’s Messenger, what is your opinion that the people do in the world and strive for, is something decreed for them; something preordained for them and will their fate in the Hereafter be determined by the fact that their Prophets brought them teachings which they did not act upon. And thus they became deserving of punishment? Thereupon, he said: Of course, it happens as it is decreed by Destiny and preordained for them, and this view is confirmed by this verse of the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious: “Consider the soul and Him Who made it perfect, then breathed into it its sin and its piety” (xci. 8). (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6406)
Narrated ‘Imran:
I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Why should a doer (people) try to do good deeds?” The Prophet said, “Everybody will find easy to do such deeds as will lead him TO HIS DESTINED PLACE FOR WHICH HE HAS BEEN CREATED.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 641)
“Narrated ‘Abdullah:
Allah’s Apostle, the truthful and truly-inspired, said, “Each one of you collected in the womb of his mother for forty days, and then turns into a clot for an equal period (of forty days) and turns into a piece of flesh for a similar period (of forty days) and then Allah sends an angel and orders him to write four things, i.e., his provision, his age, and whether he will be of the wretched or the blessed (in the Hereafter). Then the soul is breathed into him. And by Allah, a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an arm-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which Allah has ordered the angel to write) precedes, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing precedes and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number 593)
“‘A’isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah’s Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: ‘A’isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father’s loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father’s loins.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6436)
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Apostle as saying:
“Verily Allah has fixed the very portion of adultery which a man will indulge in, and which he of necessity must commit (or there would be no escape from it).” (Sahih Muslim Book 033, Number 6421, 6422)
Adil
Response to 49 (Part-3)
You wrote:
“B) Quran says Allah made many Jinns and men for hell—Sura 7:179
See page2 comment -17 (point 5-i) of mine, followed by counter question and it’s answer till I satisfied you (i.e. you could not ask further question), for detail and later comments. There, readers can find, that he could not go far on his claim (proved logically by matching the color). To repeat, I paste from there.
“..Now regarding Quran, which again came under your misinterpretation. There are many places in Quran where God said that He sealed the heart of peoples or created them for hell. First of all you read this verse of “Quran 63:3 That is because they believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed, so they understand not.”
It is something as teacher says to his student (when student is not following the instruction properly),” I ‘ll give you in written that you will not pass the exam. It doesn’t mean teacher wanted that student to fail or if student really failed, does it mean that, it is teacher who is responsible for his failure (only because he warned so in this style). Teacher told this out of his experience. So, what about God, who is All-knowing, who knows everything whether past, or present or future? And if God says that, He made him for hell or sealed heart, it never means He made him for Hell but declaring that this particular person who is also a God’s creation will go to hell or he will not respond to the call of God (i.e. heart is sealed).
Now , you decide that this Quranic God, who is predicting regarding bad people and warning them, is good, or the Biblical God, who showed all miracles and gave the best teaching(of the time) and when they (people like scribes and others) rejected Him, He started playing tricks to push them to the Hell. It is up to you decide.”
Objections and following clarification, readers can themselves see in comments to follow.
So, I cleared the doubt and still you are reiterating the same. It shows you suffer from forget fullness (in this case you must be cautious in the future) or you are a stubborn as I mentioned above in your style of presentation.
And even in my above explanation I never made the meaning opposite of what it sounds rather I gave the appropriate meaning. Like for “Allah planned”, I never said it means “Allah did not plan” or for “Allah overreached or deceived bad peoples” I never said “Allah did not or over reach bad peoples”. Don’t misquote me. I never gave the opposite meaning or entirely different meaning (unlike you). For you, one means three, death means growing, all means not all but few. And with your supernatural logic (switching off the light.. remember!) you are trying to prove them. And I am not doing anything but just enlightening it. Everything is evident.
Quran 17:81And say: “Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish.”
My responses:
1. Just because I did not comment on some of your supposed answers immediately it does not mean that they are flawless and convincing answers. Sometimes I skip some of your responses to get back to them later in order to focus on them with needed concentration. Anyway now I’ll address that. Here we go…
You wrote, “To repeat, I paste from there. “..Now regarding Quran, which again came under your misinterpretation. There are many places in Quran where God said that He sealed the heart of peoples or created them for hell. First of all you read this verse of “Quran 63:3 That is because they believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed, so they understand not.”
According to your Quran, Allah sealed the hearts of people because “first they believed, then disbelieved.” I don’t see how this supports your desperate attempt to save Q Allah, because it is consistent with Quranic Allah’s character and preplan. From other verses in the Quran we see the reason why “first they believed, then disbelieved.” This “first they believed, then disbelieved” happens mainly because Quranic Allah had created them originally for hell (S. 7:179) and therefore he himself mislead them (4:88) to make sure that what he said would be fulfilled when they ultimately enter into hell (S. 32:13). Excellent example of deception!
2. In order to make Quranic Allah’s character rather acceptable to others you came up with this story: “It is something as teacher says to his student (when student is not following the instruction properly),” I ‘ll give you in written that you will not pass the exam. It doesn’t mean teacher wanted that student to fail or if student really failed, does it mean that, it is teacher who is responsible for his failure (only because he warned so in this style). Teacher told this out of his experience.”
Here again you are bringing an imperfect and sinful human being (teacher) and the way he talks to his students out of his experience to compare with God Almighty. As far as the imperfect sinful human being is concerned to some extent we understand and accept what he says about his failing students. But can we take God’s word like that?! Is that the way Muslims equate their so-called Allah’s word with the way sinful people speak? Could this teacher ever say that ‘I have created some of the students to fail and that’s why I lead them to fail in their exams?’ This is what an imperfect and limited human being can’t say, but the perfect and all-powerful being can say with ease, if so wills. If at all the perfect and all-powerful being says this, that’s exactly what He can do! To put this differently, like in your example, the Quranic Allah could say about his students like this: I have decided to see as many students as possible to fail and be punished for that. As a part of this plan, I have created many students mainly to fail and be punished. Even if they pass in the beginning I will lead them astray to make sure in the end they fail so that what I said about the majority of the students would ultimately come to pass.” Muslims may choose to believe in a deity like this if they continue to think that Quran is God’s word, but we don’t!
3. Then you wrote, “So, what about God, who is All-knowing, who knows everything whether past, or present or future? And if God says that, He made him for hell or sealed heart, it never means He made him for Hell but declaring that this particular person who is also a God’s creation will go to hell or he will not respond to the call of God (i.e. heart is sealed).”
So according to you “if God says that He made him for hell, it never means He made him for Hell” (Readers, isn’t it amazing as well as amusing?!). Right in the same para you boasted, “Don’t misquote me. I never gave the opposite meaning or entirely different meaning (unlike you). For you, one means three, death means growing, all means not all but few. And with your supernatural logic (switching off the light.. remember!) you are trying to prove them. And I am not doing anything but just enlightening it. Everything is evident.” (Readers, you decide whether the sentence, “If God says that HE MADE HIM FOR HELL, IT NEVER MEANS HE MADE HIM FOR HELL” conveys two opposite meanings and entirely two different meanings or not! Looks like M Comforter has got the right to interpret Quranic Allah’s words in the opposite direction!!)
The Quranic Allah himself says that he would fill the hell with many men, and says he himself made many men for hell, then says he leads them astray, then says he causes those who first believed to return to their unbelief, and then says he is merciful!!!
(Readers, this is the deity that Islam promotes and Muslims worship and tremble. Isn’t it amazing and amusing? But our friend M Comforter says, “So, I cleared the doubt and still you are reiterating the same. It shows you suffer from forget fullness.” You see the truth in his comment and who is suffering from what!)
That’s why God’s word says about people like you, “Always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (2Timothy 3:7)
You wrote:
“I challenged last time, “One more point, you alleged me of deriding prophets. If you have the guts and even scarce of Truthfulness in you, show me where I insulted prophets….”. Where is the answer to my this challenge? So, I accept you lied at THAT time. You swiftly escaped it. Only thing you did is to (rather tried to cover up) answer my NEXT QUESTION on quotations from Bible where your Bible is deriding the prophets.”
My response:
1. About Jesus you wrote, “Jesus(pbuh) BROKE the law of Moses”
2. About David you wrote, “It is not similar to David’s story where Michal is pointing out HIS SHAMEFUL ACT”
3. About Paul you wrote, “ANOTHER TRUTH ABOUT APOSTLE PAUL.
I HAVE ALREADY PROVED HOW HE SETS PERFECTLY INTO THE CRITERIA FOR JUDGING THE FALSE PROPHET.” (Just in case you say that Paul is not a prophet remember same is applicable to Muhammad from my point of view!)
You wrote:
“Regarding prophets:
i. Regarding prophet Noah: So, if prophet of God drinks inside the tent, it is not a problem. No matter if in the process he becomes naked. Isn’t it? Amazing! Brother, We don’t believe prophet of God will do this, even if it is 5000 yrs back. He was the model to society. This shows your sickness. You peoples are deriding prophets with such beliefs. Neither Noah, nor Jesus, nor Mohammad (pubt) had ever had alcoholic drink.”
My responses:
1. You wrote boastfully, “Brother, We don’t believe prophet of God will do this, even if it is 5000 yrs back. He was the model to society. This shows your sickness. You peoples are deriding prophets with such beliefs.”
Let’s see what you guys made of true prophets of the Bible with the help of the ‘terrifying spirit!’ For example, you made the prophet Abraham to commit shirk, the most serious sin! Yet, you have guts to talk about Noah’s drunkenness!
“When the night covered him over, He (Abraham) saw a star: He said: “This is my Lord.” But when it set, He said: “I love not those that set.” (Quran 6:74)
“When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: “This is my Lord.” But when the moon set, He said: “unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray.” (Quran 6:75)
“When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said: “This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all).” But when the sun set, he said: “O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to God.” (Quran 6”76)
According to the above silly Arabic poems Abraham was made an idolater for some time! How about that time, was he a model for you to commit shirk?! How long will you live in this hypocrisy? (Readers, he will live in this hypocrisy as long as he continues to believe in Islam)
2. God has not prohibited drinking completely without qualification. All the way from Adam and Noah and Moses and Solomon to Jesus it is not prohibited. If you think otherwise please show me where and how. Don’t write some strong words just because you think you need to write them. Instead of showing your emotionalism cool down and used your brain.
3. As far as the drunken status of Noah is concerned that’s what happened to him and that’s what is reported. Here the Bible is not saying whether it is right or wrong, but it is reporting what has happened. Just because you don’t like that account that doesn’t mean God’s word should not contain that account! By the way, prophets are also humans and had limitations and failed at times in their exemplary lives. Reporting of such failures doesn’t make God’s word non-God’s word! Think straight and don’t bring Islamic reasoning here.
4. Even within the 22 years of Muhammad’s so-called prophethood alcohol was not prohibited completely in the beginning itself. According to Islamic scholars the prohibition of alcohol in Islam was gradual and progressive which reflects in the Quran. In the beginning Quran even seems to give a favorable impression of the alcoholic drinks…
a) Quran 16:67–“And of the fruits of the date-palms and the grapes, you obtain ALCOHOLIC drinks and goods. Verily in that is a Sign for a people who use their understanding.”
b) Quran 2:219—“They ask you [Prophet] about INTOXICANTS and gambling: say, “There is great sin in both, and some benefit for people: the sin is greater than the benefit.” They ask you what they should give: say, “Give what you can spare.””
c) Quran 4:43–“O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are INTOXICATED until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath — unless (you are) travelling on the road — until you have washed yourselves;”
Here we see that drinking alcohol was prohibited during prayer leaving open the other times for drinking at lease for sometime.
d) Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 142:
Narrated Jabir:
Some people drank alcoholic beverages in the morning (of the day) of the Uhud battle and on the same day they were killed as martyrs, and that was BEFORE WINE WAS PROHIBITED.
c) Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 144:
Narrated Anas:
The alcoholic drink which was spilled was Al-Fadikh. I used to offer alcoholic drinks to the people at the residence of Abu Talha. Then the order of prohibiting Alcoholic drinks was revealed, and the Prophet ordered somebody to announce that: Abu Talha said to me, “Go out and see what this voice (this announcement) is.” I went out and (on coming back) said, “This is somebody announcing that alcoholic beverages have been prohibited.” Abu Talha said to me, “Go and spill it (i.e. the wine).” Then it (alcoholic drinks) was seen flowing through the streets of Medina. At that time the wine was Al-Fadikh. The people said, “Some people (Muslims) were killed (during the battle of Uhud) while wine was in their stomachs.” So Allah revealed: “On those who believe and do good deeds there is no blame for what they ate (in the past).” (5.93)
Later, according to the Islamic scholars, alcohol was fully prohibited in Islam through the verse that was supposedly revealed to Muhammad during 628-629 A.D.
Quran 5:90 “You who believe, intoxicants and gambling, idolatrous practices, and [divining with] arrows are repugnant acts—Satan’s doing: shun them so that you may prosper. 91 With intoxicants and gambling, Satan seeks only to incite enmity and hatred among you, and to stop you remembering God and prayer. Will you not give them up?”
I hope this is suffice to expose your lie and emotionalism and show the readers contrary to your lie that even according to your own Quran and Muslim scholars drinking has been prohibited gradually within 22 years of Muhammad’s self-prophethood. How can you expect the people and the prophets in the Bible, who preceded hundreds and thousands of years to the birth of Islam, to follow this rule let alone the issue whether the prohibition is from God or not? Maybe because of Islamic logic you think differently and expect differently. Brilliant, this shows the bankruptcy of your reasoning skills as a result of Islamic influence!
You wrote:
“Now regarding, your quotation on Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). This is nothing but lie.
THE HADITH YOU QUOTED IS A LIE. I have checked my hadith book. No such hadith exists. I am giving two online links to cross check the hadith. You said it is mentioned in Muslim – Drinks-3753. Readers can check themselves…”
My response:
1. Here is the hadith I quoted: Muslim-Drinks-3753: ”We were with the Prophet of Allah, and He was thirsty, and a man said: O prophet of Allah, Do you want to drink wine? Prophet of Allah said: Yes. The Man went to get the wine. The Prophet of Allah said: Make it Intoxicated. And He (Muhammad) Drank”
In my last posting I forgot to give you the source details of this hadith. Here they are:
This hadith and its number are in Arabic. It can be found on the Arabic website of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia: Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Endowments, Da‘wah and Guidance
(http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=4824). Since the website doesn’t give the English translation of the hadith, for whatever reasons, I took its English translation from a website called “The Spittoon” (http://www.spittoon.org/archives/7083)
2. By the way, this hadith is not my production. As far as the translation is concerned since I don’t know Arabic I quote others. In this particular quote if the translation is not perfect I apologize to my Muslim friends for that.
3. For argument sake, even if the above hadith is not true it doesn’t matter. Whether Muhammad drank something intoxicating or not, I don’t see any reason for anyone to find fault with him based on that. As a probability he might have had alcoholic drinks before it was prohibited completely according to the Quran. In the final analysis we can’t say whatever Muhammad did is right or whatever Muhammad didn’t do is wrong.
Anyway, may God help you to think logically and contextually.
You wrote:
“Regarding prophet David:
2 Samuel 6: 20Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! 21And David said unto Michal, [It was] before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD. 22And I WILL YET BE MORE VILE than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour. 23Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death. KJV
Anybody can read the story and understand the truth which you tried to cover. Here Michal is saying what she saw, not telling the lie.”
My response:
Before jumping into conclusions typical of Islam you better read the whole chapter. Here I am giving some of the verses that you overlooked…
“And David was dancing before the LORD with all his might, and David was WEARING a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel were bringing up the ark of the LORD with shouting and the sound of the trumpet. Then it happened as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and SAW KING DAVID LEAPING AND DANCING before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.” (2 Samuel 6: 14-16)
Some observations …
David was wearing a linen ephod!
David was leaping and dancing (the Bible did not say David was leaping and dancing nakedly!).
Michal looked out of the window.
Michal saw David leaping and dancing. (NOT Michal saw David leaping and dancing naked)
Michal despised him in her heart. (This is why she spoke of David derogatorily by exaggerating what he had done before the LORD. When David realized that Michal was not participating actively in the celebrations before the LORD he had every reason to deal with her harshly. Moreover she started to comment negatively and accusing him. Here David was not in need of defending or denying his actions before Michal and give her a soothing explanation.)
You wrote:
“Readers can judge the reading skill of Mr. christian Adil. Is it the way Prophet behaves?”
My response:
(Readers, now you judge M Comforter’s reading skills!) If you think that David as a prophet of God should not have done what he had done before the LORD then please write next time what are the acceptable behavioral patterns a prophet should have and why. By the way, if what the Bible recorded here was true then may the LORD deal with you the way HE dealt with Michal.
You wrote:
“There is another absurd story (version) related to Prophet David in Bible.
He commits adultery with Bath-sheba the wife of Uriah:
2 SAMUEL 11:4 “And David sent messengers, and took her (Bathsheba); and she came in unto him, and he LAY (had intercourse) with her. . .
Then David wickedly caused the death of Uriah, the husband of Bath-sheba.
See. 2 SAMUEL 11:6-25
Now Quran comes to rescue Prophet David. According to Islam prophets were human with all human feelings and limitations but under strict guidance and inspiration of God as they were model for the society.
Quran 38 21. And has the news of the litigants reached you? When they climbed over the wall into (his) Mihrâb (a praying place or a private room,). 22. When they entered in upon Dâwûd (David), he was terrified of them, they said: “Fear not! (We are) two litigants, one of whom has wronged the other, therefore judge between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, and guide us to the Right Way.23. Verily, this my brother (in religion) has ninety nine ewes, while I have (only) one ewe, and he says: “Hand it over to me, and he overpowered me in speech.” 24. [Dâwûd (David)] said (immediately without listening to the opponent): “He has wronged you in demanding your ewe in addition to his ewes. And, verily, many partners oppress one another, except those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and they are few.” And Dâwûd (David) guessed that We have tried him and he sought Forgiveness of his Lord, and he fell down prostrate and turned (to Allâh) in repentance. 25. So We forgave him that, and verily, for him is a near access to Us, and a good place of (final) return (Paradise).
The actual event as one clearly understands from the aforesaid verses of the Quran was – David had expressed his desire to Uriah (or whatever be the name of the man) that he should divorce his wife as David wanted her for himself. And because David was a king, his request put Uriah in a helpless situation feeling compelled to yield. At this time, before Uriah could act as David had desired, two righteous men of the nation suddenly appeared in the presence of David and presented their problem which (in terms of violation of justice) was similar to the story of David and Uriah. On hearing it, David gave his decision as king, asserting that the man with “99 ewes” had wronged the other man who with one ewe. Soon after, his conscience made him realize his violation when he became aware that this incident was a reminder to him of his own act of injustice (As David already had many wives and he wanted to add one more to them). David immediately repented, fell down prostrate before God Almighty and reversed his decision. On the basis of his sincere repentance, David was granted forgiveness by the Divine Power and his status remained unaffected. On accepting his repentance, Quran 38:26 is also a warning to Prophet David from God Almighty along with giving him the good news of exalting his rank, being evidence of the fact that David never again stumbled into similar temptations or errors arising from personal desires.
So, David, a human (and prophet) got a wrong desire but God protected and guided him. He remained righteous, but Bible made him a rapist and deceiver.
Who is deriding prophets, Bible or Quran?”
My response:
1. If God chooses to record the sins of the prophets that is objectionable to your brain. The way you made the recording of the sins of David in the Bible equal to “Bible made him a rapist and deceiver” shows us how Islam has corrupted your mind. It’s no wonder only Islam can do that!
2. The one who reads the story of David in the Quran should be left wondering with many questions and confusion.
What was David’s wrong? Why did David have to ask forgiveness? What was it that David repented of?
These are the simple but important questions regarding David in this context. The so-called Allah’s word got no clue to offer. To understand the whole story one needs to go to the Bible. Whether you like it or not David did commit adultery with Bathsheba, he did use deception and murdered Bathsheba’s husband Uriah. The God of the Bible does not approve or hide His prophets’ sins or somehow condone it and say the prophet can do anything. David did pay for this sin in the end. Prophet Nathan came with a parable of many sheep owned by a rich man and one little lamb owned by a poor man. Through this he made David to realize and confess his sin before God. God forgave him along with punishment in this world. The whole story is recorded in the Bible (2 Samuel Chapters 11 and 12). The Quran on the contrary muddies the waters by messing up the details and leaves the reader in the end rather confused. Right here hadiths come to rescue the Quran from its lack of information and thereby confirm its imperfection!
Here I am quoting from the Islamic source Al-Tabari:
“It is mentioned that one day, he [Sam- David] wanted from his Lord the same status as his forefathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and he asked his Lord to test him somewhat as He had tested them and to grant him favor like He had granted them.
Muhammad b. al-Husayn- Ahmad b. al-Mufaddal- Asbat who said: al-Suddi said that David divided his time into three days: one day he would spend with people; one day he would devote to the worship of his Lord; one day he would devote to his wives, of whom he had ninety-nine. In what he read in the books, he found the excellence of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. When he found this in the books he read, he said: “O Lord! It seems to me that my forefathers have taken all goodness. Grant me the same as you have granted them.”
Then God inspired him: “Your forefathers were tried with the misfortunes with which you have not been tried. Abraham was tested with the sacrifice of his son, Isaac with the loss of his sight, and Jacob with grief over his son Joseph. You have not been tried with any of that.” David said, “O Lord! Test me as you have tested them, and grant me what you have given them.”
God inspired him: “You are going to be tested, so be on your guard!” He waited as long as God wished him to wait, whereupon Satan came to him, taking on the shape of a golden dove. It alighted at his feet while he was standing and praying. The narrator continued: He reached out his hand to take hold of it, but it flew away. He followed it, but it distanced itself until it alighted in an aperture. He watched to see where it would alight, so he could go after it.
HE SAW A WOMN BATHING HERSELF ON HER ROOF, ONE OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMEN IN FORM. She happened to turn around, and she saw him. She let down her hair, covering herself with it. THAT ONLY INCREASED HIS DESIRE FOR HER.
HE ASKED ABOUT HER AND WAS TOLD THAT SHE HAD A HUSBAND WHO WAS AT SUCH-AND-SUCH A GARRISON. HE SENT TO THE GARRISON COMMADER AN ORDER TO SEND URIAH [Sam- Arabic, Ahriya/Awriya] AGAINST SUCH-AND-SUCH AN ENEMY. He therefore sent him, and [the enemy] was conquered by him. The commander wrote back to David about the victory, and David wrote to him again, saying, “Send him against such-and-such an enemy, who is even stronger than they.” So he sent him, and they again were conquered by him, and he wrote to David about the second victory. David wrote to him, “Send him to such-and-such an enemy.” SO HE SENT HIM, AND ON THE THIRD TIME, URIAH WAS SLAIN.
DAVID MARRIED URIAH’S WIFE. When she came to him, she had been with him only a short time when God sent two angels, in human form, who requested admission to his presence. But they found that this was his day of worship, and the guards prevented them from entering. So the two scaled the wall of his private apartment to reach him. He was not aware of [their arrival] while he was praying, but suddenly the two were sitting in front of him. He was startled, but they said, “Do not be afraid. We are two litigants, one of whom has wronged the other, therefore judge aright between us; be not unjust”- meaning, do not act wrongfully- “and show us the fair way, to just judgment.” David said, “Tell me your story.” One of them said: “Lo! This brother of mine has ninety-nine ewes while I have one ewe. He wants to take my ewe to round out his to one hundred.”
David then said to the other one, “What do you have to say?” The other replied, “I have ninety-nine ewes, and this brother of mine has one ewe, and I want to take it from him to complete my ewes to one hundred.” David said, “Even though he is unwilling?” He replied, “Even though he is unwilling!” David said, “Then we cannot let you do that!” He replied, “But you are unable to [prevent] that.” David said, “If you try that, then we will hit you on this and that” which Asbat interprets as “the tip of the nose and the forehead.” Then he said, “O David! You deserve more to be hit on this and this, since you have ninety-nine wives while Uriah had only one wife. But you did not stop exposing him to slaughter until he was slain, and you married his wife.”
[David] looked and saw no one. Then he understood what had happened, and how he was being tested, and he fell prostrating himself, and wept. He remained prostrate and weeping for forty days, not raising his head except for some absolute need, after which he would again fall down prostrate and weeping. He prayed until grass began to sprout from his tears.
Then after forty days passed, God inspired him, “O David! Lift up your head, for I have forgiven you.” He said, “O Lord! How will I know that You have forgiven me, when You are a just judge Who shows no favor in judgment? When Uriah comes on the Day of Resurrection, holding his head in his right or left hand, his neck veins gushing blood before Your Throne, he will say, ‘O Lord! Ask this one why he slew me.’” God inspired him: “If that happens, I will call Uriah and ask for you as a gift from him. He will give you to Me, and I will repay him with Paradise.” David said, “O Lord! Now I know that You have forgiven me.” He could not raise his eyes to the heavens, because of his shame before his Lord, until he died.
‘Ali b. Sahl related to me- al-Walid b. Muslim- ‘Abd al-Rahman b. Yazid b. Jabir- ‘Ata al-Khurasani: David engraved his sin on the palm of his hand, lest he should forget it. Whenever he saw it, his hand would tremble and throb. (The History of Al-Tabari, Volume III, The Children of Israel, trans. William M. Brunner [State University of New York Press, Alban 1991], pp. 144-146”
Although this Islamic story misses some of the events in the Bible still it comes very close to the biblical narrative. While reading the Quran, which works as blinking lights, one needs to turn to other hadith stories for light that is woefully lacking in the so-called Allah’s word. Even according to this story David did commit two sins, namely, coveting someone else’s wife and murdering an innocent. So at least for the Islamic scholars it is ok if the prophet commits ‘coveting’ and ‘murder’ as long as he does not commit adultery!
When God exposes instead of condoning even the sins of His prophets the ignorant folks think that it is deriding the prophets! More than that while they themselves making prophet Abraham as someone who committed ‘shirk’ yet hypocritically find fault with God’s true word the Bible for recording David’s sin. This shows the nature of Islamic influence on some folks!
Adil
Response to 49 (Part-4)
You wrote:
“Now regarding your another lie:You wrote,
“How about your Muhammad? Look at your own Quran’s record of what has been said of him: “And they say: “O you (Muhammad) to whom the Dhikr (the Qur’an) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man. Why do you not bring angels to us if you are of the truthful ones?” S. 15:6 Hilali-Khan. The so-called Allah’s word records that Muhammad was declared by others as a MAD man.” My response: This is another incident where you tried to prove your point by “turning off the light”. Now I will turn the lights on. Bad peoples usually declare good people as mad man, it does not make the man, mad.”
My responses:
1. You are right, ‘bad peoples usually declare good people as mad man, it does not make the man, mad.’ However, mad people sometimes think they are mad! If a mad man calls himself ‘mad’ and others call him ‘mad’ too then the friends of the mad man would usually get hurt and try to label those who call their man ‘mad’ as ‘bad’ people. This doesn’t make the madman any better!
2. The opponents of Muhammad did believe and say that he was a madman. Although Muhammad through his alleged inspired verses denied it in the above verses, initially he himself thought that he was a ‘madman’ or going mad. Since he was possessed and bewitched he behaved like a ‘madman.’ A possessed or bewitched man can be a ‘madman’ at least for some periods of his life. The same is being implied in the following hadiths:
“I [Muhammad] said to myself, “Your humble servant (meaning himself [Muhammad]) is either a poet or a MADMAN, but Quraysh [a large Meccan tribe] shall never say this of me. I shall take myself to a mountain crag, hurl myself down from it, kill myself, and find relief in that way.” (Tabari, Muhammad at Mecca, trans. W. Montgomery Watt and M V McDonald, vol. 6, SUNYP, 1988, p. 71, Arabic p. 1150)
“But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, “O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah’s Apostle in truth” whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home.” (Sahi Bukhari V9, B87, N.111)
3. By the way, regarding the quotes from Muslim historian Tabari you expressed some objections, which is typically the character of a whining and loosing child. I suggested a better way of debating without hurting each others religious feelings. You did not accept that and went on your way throwing insults and false accusations on God’s word, the Bible. Now when you realize you are loosing ground you demand that I follow your criterion. You are behaving like a silly fellow. You believe blindly that Quran is Allah’s word, Muhammad is Allah’s prophet and hadiths such as Bukhari, Muslim etc. are authentic. Did I ever agree to that? Or when did I agree to quote only these ones in our postings? I did offer something along these lines, but like a typical Muslim apologist you rejected it and now started to whine, weep, cry and complain! How can you expect me to quote only what you expect me to quote when you have refused to abide by some principles? So far I was quoting from these as they are readily available to me. As I am expanding the study of Islam I am getting access to wider Islamic sources from pious Muslims and that’s why I am quoting even from them wherever appropriate. (Readers, please note that I am not quoting here anti-Muslims or liberal Muslims, but pious Muslims.)
You wrote:
“Regarding prophet Isiah: You said “…The prophet went about barefoot and naked (in his undergarment) as a shocking means of gaining the attention of the people to the severity of his prediction….”.
Brother, last week I saw a group of some Apologists walking on road naked with their buttocks uncovered and barefoot. Don’t be angry, I probably mean they were naked under their garments. Even though I gave the beautiful reasoning that they were naked under their garments, still it sound offensive. How could God use such offensive language (if not in literal sense) for his prophets in His holy book? But, it was more than the use of language and it did mean naked only, not naked in his undergarment. Reason:
a. God forgot to say that Isiah was naked in his under garment which was inspired to you people. No where it is mentioned so.
b. Why did the Lord used word ‘SHAME’ for such act when He himself ordered his prophet to do so and predicted the same for the king of Assyria doing to his captives.
Isiah 20:3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant ISAIAH HATH WALKED NAKED and barefoot three years [for] a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia; 4So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, NAKED and barefoot, even WITH [THEIR] BUTTOCKS UNCOVERED, to the SHAME of Egypt.
Your reading ability is seriously doubtful. Now you tried another covering up by “turning the light off”. You quoted from Quran and tried to prove it to be similar to the above act. But actually it is opposite. You quoted about Adam and Eve when they ate from the prohibited tree , their test got finished and were made ready to be sent to earth and made as spouse for one another and their sexual desire was set started which in the language of Quran “ their raiment was stripped” . Is it the same as one getting naked in public to get attention? It is no where written that they were made naked with buttocks uncovered (language of Bible). Even if taken in literal sense (which is not the case even according to Bible for Adam and Eve in this scenario), it is not a shameful act as they were spouse (first spouse on the Earth) and was private in their act, as there was no body to see them. You mean all the spouses in their privacy, if get naked, it is a shameful act and it is similar to naked females rallying on road of America for certain demands such as wild life conservation (to get attention probably inspired from Bible, as we saw above ).
Isn’t it amazing and hypocritical? I think this much light was enough to expose your deception. Our intelligent readers can judge the lie and deception.”
My response:
1. Here again you displayed your corrupt mind under Islamic influence. Prophet Isaiah was ordered by God to be a sign to others in a particular way. That is offensive language to you?! You are telling me that Almighty God cannot order His servants to do what He wants them to do. But in the same breath you believe that it is divine order if Muhammad says ‘bow down to the black stone.’ You expect your Allah to command his prophets only what you think is acceptable or what Muhammad says is right. That is your ignorance and heightened perversion. By the way, if a person is fully naked then you don’t have to say that person is walking with buttocks uncovered!
2. You justified your own book by saying, “You quoted about Adam and Eve when they ate from the prohibited tree , their test got finished and were made ready to be sent to earth and made as spouse for one another and their sexual desire was set started which in the language of Quran “ their raiment was stripped” . Is it the same as one getting naked in public to get attention? It is no where written that they were made naked with buttocks uncovered (language of Bible). Even if taken in literal sense (which is not the case even according to Bible for Adam and Eve in this scenario), it is not a shameful act as they were spouse (first spouse on the Earth) and was private in their act, as there was no body to see them.”
Here is what your Quran says, “O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their SHAME: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.” (Quran 7:27). But looks like you know better than your Q Allah! You say, ‘it is not shameful act as they were spouse and was private in their act, as there was no body to see them.” But your Q Allah says, “he got (Satan) your parents…stripping them of their raiment, to expose their SHAME.” If you are right then Q Allah is wrong for he says that ‘they were exposed of their SHAME!’
But you have a good point in stating, ‘it is not same as one getting naked in public.’ Wait a minute, for that purpose let us turn to your Islamic stupid stories now:
“Narrated Aisha
Zayd ibn Harithah came to Medina when Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) was in my house. When he came to him and knocked at the door Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) got up and went to him NAKED, trailing his garment. I swear by Allah that neither before nor after that did I ever see him naked. He then embraced him and kissed him.
Tirmidhi transmitted it.” (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 1220- ALIM CD-ROM Version)
Well, if you think ‘it is not same as one getting naked in public,’ because this hadith says Muhammad was NAKED in front of his adopted son, you need to read this…
“Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah:
While Allah’s Apostle was carrying stones (along) with the people of Mecca for (the building of) the Ka’ba wearing an Izar (waist-sheet cover), his uncle Al-‘Abbas said to him, “O my nephew! (It would be better) if you take off your Izar and put it over your shoulders underneath the stones.” So he took off his Izar and put it over his shoulders, but he fell unconscious AND SINCE THEN HE HAD NEVER BEEN SEEN NAKED. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 360)”
(Readers, what should we call all this on the part of Muslims like M Comforter? STUPIDITY? HYPOCRISY? SHAMELESSNESS? WICKEDNESS? OR ISLAMIC HONESTY! You decide.)
3. How about your final so-called illiterate prophet portraying prophet Moses as NAKED in public?
“Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “(The Prophet) Moses was a shy person and used to cover his body completely because of his extensive shyness. One of the children of Israel hurt him by saying, ‘He covers his body in this way only because of some defect in his skin, either leprosy or scrotal hernia, or he has some other defect.’ Allah wished to clear Moses of what they said about him, so one day while Moses was in seclusion, he took off his clothes and put them on a stone and started taking a bath. When he had finished the bath, he moved towards his clothes so as to take them, but the stone took his clothes and fled; Moses picked up his stick and ran after the stone saying, ‘O stone! Give me my garment!’ Till he reached a group of Bani Israel WHO SAW HIM NAKED then, and found him the best of what Allah had created, and Allah cleared him of what they had accused him of. The stone stopped there and Moses took and put his garment on and started hitting the stone with his stick. By Allah, the stone still has some traces of the hitting, three, four or five marks. This was what Allah refers to in His Saying:– “O you who believe! Be you not like those Who annoyed Moses, But Allah proved his innocence of that which they alleged, And he was honorable In Allah’s Sight.” (33.69) (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 616)
Amongst the traditions narrated from Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) on the authority of Abu Huraira, the one is that Banu Isra’il used to take a bath naked, and they looked at the private parts of one another. Moses (peace be upon him), however, took a bath alone (in privacy); and they said (tauntingly): By Allah, nothing prohibits Moses to take a bath along with us, but sacrotal hernia. He (Moses) once went for a bath and placed his clothes on a stone and the stone moved on with his clothes. Moses ran after it saying: O stone, my clothes, O stone, my clothes, and Banu Isra’il had the chance to see the private parts of Moses, and said: By Allah, Moses does not suffer from any ailment. The stone then stopped, till Moses had been seen by them, and he then took hold of his clothes and struck the stone. Abu Huraira said: By Allah, there are the marks of six or seven strokes made by Moses on the stone. (Sahih Muslim, Book 003, Number 0669)
Hammam b. Munabbih reported that Abu Huraira reported many ahadith from Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and one, of them speaks that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) is reported to have said: Banu Isra’il used to take bath (together) naked and thus saw private parts of one another, but Moses (peace be upon him) used to take bath alone (in privacy), and they said: By Allah, nothing prevents Moses to take bath along with us; but scrotal hernia. One day when he (Moses) was taking bath (alone) he placed his clothes upon a stone, but the stone began to move along with his clothes. Moses raced after it saying: My garment, stone; until (some of the people) of Banu Isra’il looked at the private parts of Moses, and they said: By Allah, there is no trouble with Moses. The stone stopped after he (Moses) had been seen. He took hold of his garments and struck the stone. Abu Huraira said: I swear by Allah that there were six or seven scars on the stone because of the striking of stone by Moses (peace be upon him). (Sahih Muslim, Book 030, Number 5849)”
You believe these stupid stories and accept them with Islamic piousness? (Amazing) While these stupid stories portraying prophet of God being NAKED you don’t see any problem in that. Isn’t this heightened Islamic hypocrisy!
You wrote:
“With such quality attributed to prophets they are bound to get rid of their prophet hood and I am sure at least in the case of Prophet Lot (as Quran saved him and we believe he was free from such lie). In one place, I said that it was regarding prophet Israel (Genesis 35:22), I never said prophet Israel committed that sin/ incest. Yes, it was his elder son who committed incest with his mother (father’s wife or concubine – in the language of Bible wife and concubine can be same e.g. see GENESIS 25:1 and I CHRONICLES 1:32). You gave a good reasoning that at that time it was not prohibited to have incest with mother, the law came much later. We don’t believe so. We can’t expect such act from any human leave the prophet and his family, to be a non sinful act, at any time whether before thousand years or more. I think even Bible agrees with me and even you too partially, because you said “The SIN of Ruben has been exposed in the Bible. As a result of this sin Ruben lost his position to Levi in God’s blessings.” Why he lost the position, if it was still not the sinful act? Similarly how could Prophet Lot (nauzbillah) perform incest with his daughters much before the appearance of law of Moses when it was still considered sin (as we saw above). Similarly how could Judah (father in law thinking going to whore) and Tamar (taking sweet revenge) commit such sinful acts. For what purpose Bible presents such story & what moral lesson is there? Probably a theme for x- graded movies or story books, certainly not of holy book of God.”
My response:
1. For the corrupt mind everything is corrupt, including how God exposes the fallen nature of human beings and deals with them in different ways in different generations. Those who are misguided and thereby convinced of the inspirations of the devil as divine inspirations find it hard to recognize the true inspirations of God that warns and exposes fallen human nature, both in prophet and peasant, and lay out God’s dealings in providing salvation for all humanity.
2. You wrote under Islamic influence, “You gave a good reasoning that at that time it was not prohibited to have incest with mother, the law came much later.”
Where did I say that “at that time it was not prohibited to have incest with mother” giving the impression that it was acceptable to have incest with mother? Maybe you wrote this due to the same satanic inspirations that Muhammad had to justify his own despicable actions! Here your inclinations to draw such conclusions show the effect of Muhammad’s stupid hadiths and sick revelations.
What I wrote was, “Again although incest of this type has been forbidden in the ‘Law of Moses,’ which came five hundred years after this incident, the Bible is not endorsing it but exposing it.” I deliberately added the words, “the Bible is not endorsing it but exposing it” to my explanation last time just in case my explanation might give unintended meaning to corrupt minds. That’s where you spectacularly proved that you are reading under Islamic influence and that’s why you came to such conclusions! When I said ‘the Bible is not endorsing it but exposing the event’ I don’t mean such incest is acceptable, as anybody with minimum commonsense could understand! This is how you have been understanding the Bible all along! (Readers, here please take note of the mental status and its inclinations of M Comforter).
Please don’t use Islamic rationality to understand even my statements, let alone the Bible. You are already under the influence of Islam. Although the Law that described and prohibited the incest was not there at that time to condemn the persons involved in it, yet the Bible says those who do not know the Law have the work of the law written on their consciences (Romans 2:14-15). That’s what condemned Rueben. By the way, don’t try to equate father’s concubine with own mother in every sense with the help of Islamic reasoning. God allowed these incidents to be recorded in His word for exposing, warning and correcting of the future generations. The minds that are touched by God’s grace, truth and forgiveness would get benefit in these areas while the corrupt minds would continue to get troubled by them.
You wrote:
“Brother you can’t keep covering up by turning the light off, I will enlighten the topic and make thing crystal clear. You can’t fool people and escape like this.”
My response:
1. Your boasting is worth testing. If you think that’s what you can do, first please answer these questions:
a. Could and did prophets sin? If no, then, where does your so-called Allah’s word (Quran) say that prophets cannot sin or did not sin?
b. Where does the Quran say that God will not expose the sins of the prophets or God’s word does not record such things?
c. According to your Quran or Muhammad or Islam or you, what are the acceptable accounts or God’s word can contain and what it cannot contain and why?
d. According to the Quran or you what kind of language (literal or figurative) or non-offensive language is acceptable for God’s word and what not and why?
I hope with your answer we can do some meaningful and interesting discussion of the Bible and Quran.
2. The purpose of divine revelation is primarily to reveal God, His law (what is right and what is wrong), His eternal purposes, His expectations from human beings and how human beings fail or succeed in them, but not to justify the so-called prophet’s own despicable actions and whims. In the process of helping us to be obedient to His laws and rise up to His expectations God is showing us the failures as well as the successes of former generations including prophets so that we can take lessons from them. “Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (1Corinthians 10:11).
3. It is apparent from your postings that according to you or Islamic logic the following argument proves the Bible is wrong:
Premise 1: The Bible has accounts that expose the sins of the prophets of God.
Premise 2: To record the sins of the prophets of God cannot be expected in God’s word
Premise 3: Therefore the Bible is not God’s word!
Let us apply the same logic to the Quran…
Premise 1: The Quran has the account of the prophet Abraham committing shrik, the greatest sin. (Quran 6:74-76)
Premise 2: To record the sins of the prophets of God cannot be expected in God’s word
Premise 3: Therefore the Quran is not God’s word!
(Readers, please see the foolishness of M Comforter’s argument that clearly proves his Quran is wrong unless there are some exceptions to the poems of an illiterate ignorant pagan Arab.)
You wrote:
“Now you again tried to cover the sins of Bible by accusing innocents. You quoted from Quran:
Quran 33:37 And (remember) when you said to him (Zaid bin Hârithah the freed¬slave of the Prophet Sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe Wa Sallam) on whom Allâh has bestowed Grace (by guiding him to Islâm) and you (O Muhammad Sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe Wa Sallam too) have done favour (by manumitting him) “Keep your wife to yourself, and fear Allâh.” But you did hide in yourself (i.e. what Allâh has already made known to you that He will give her to you in marriage) that which Allâh will make manifest, you did fear the people (i.e., Muhammad Sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe Wa Sallam married the divorced wife of his manumitted slave) whereas Allâh had a better right that you should fear Him. So when Zaid had accomplished his desire from her (i.e. divorced her), We gave her to you in marriage, so that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the believers in respect of (the marriage of) the wives of their adopted sons when the latter have no desire to keep them (i.e. they have divorced them). And Allâh’s Command must be fulfilled. Now, my first question which satan (probably Sam) inspired you that Zaid bin Harithah was prophet’s son? Do you know full name of Zaid, it is Zaid bin Harithah (Zaid the son of harithah) not Zaid bin Mohammad. Prophet Mohammad’s (pbuh) all son died in early childhood. He didn’t have any son. Zaid was not his son. Then, who was Zaid bin Harithah? He was a slave of prophet whom prophet freed. Still he stayed with prophet and prophet loved him a lot, something like adopted son.”
My responses:
1. In general, in any culture in any generation adopted sons/daughters are considered as almost like own sons/daughters. In some cases the bond between adopted children and foster parents is much stronger than between natural children and parents. Even today we can witness this across the cultures of the world. In Arab culture before Islam it was the same. I have a number of family friends, both in India and abroad. One of the families, a Muslim family, has an adopted daughter. Thankfully they don’t follow Muhammad’s horrible example and sick revelation. No one, including other Muslims, call the girl as adopted daughter. She calls them mother and father, they call her daughter. But Muhammad left a shameful example for faithful Muslims here. In order to justify his perversion he engineered a revelation in the name of Allah to permit himself to engage in adultery. The difference between Muhammad’s adultery and David’s adultery is stark and sharp. David lusted after his soldier’s wife, but Muhammad lusted after his (adopted) son’s wife. David engineered the killing of his soldier in order to get his wife for himself, but Muhammad engineered a ‘revelation in the name of Allah’ in order to get Zaid’s wife for himself. David married Bathsheba after her husband’s death, but Muhammad married Zainab while her husband was still alive. When confronted, David confessed his sin and paid for that, but Muhammad justified his sin in the name of Allah and made others to pay for it. As a result of the sin David lost one baby-son, but Muhammad lost his all three baby-sons because of the lies he started to bring forth in the name of Allah. No wonder Muhammad could not have natural sons of his own to lead his umma.
2. Here are the verses that supposedly revealed to Muhammad granting him permission to marry Zainab
“And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: KEEP YOUR WIFE TO YOURSELF AND BE CAREFUL OF (YOUR DUTY TO) ALLAH; AND YOU CONCEALED IN YOUR SOUL WHAT ALLAH WOULD BRING TO LIGHT, AND YOU FEARED MEN, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah’s command shall be performed. There is no harm in the Prophet doing that which Allah has ordained for him; such has been the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and the command of Allah is a decree that is made absolute” (Quran 33:37-38)
Here is what Al-Tabari says about this alleged revelation that his beloved prophet brought in the name of Allah in his Tafsir based on Islamic hadiths:
“According to Ibn ‘Umar [al-Waqidi] – ‘Abdallah b. ‘Amir al-Aslami – Muhammad b. Yahya b. Habban: The Prophet came to Zayd b. Harithah’s house looking for him. Zayd was [at that time] called Zayd b. Muhammad, and the Prophet sometimes would miss him [after] a time and would say “Where is Zayd?” [Once] he went to Zayd’s house but did not find him [there]. Zaynab rose toward him and said “Come here, O Messenger of God,” but he turned away, muttering something unintelligible, except the words “Praised be God the Great, praised be God, who turns the hearts.” When Zayd came home his wife told him that the Prophet had come to his house. Zayd asked “Didn’t you ask him to come in?” She said “I proposed it to him but he declined.” Zayd asked “Did you hear him say anything?” She said: “When he turned away I heard him say something I did not understand, and I heard him say ‘Praised be God the Great, praised be God who turns the hearts.'” Zayd left [his house] and went to the Prophet. He said: “O Messenger of God, I heard that you came to my house. Why didn’t you come in? O Messenger of God, may my father and mother be your ransom! PERHAPS [THE PROBLEM IS] THAT YOU LIKE ZAYNAB? IN THAT CASE, I SHALL DIVORCE HER.” The Prophet said “Keep your wife.” [But] Zayd could not touch her [after that]. He would come to the Prophet and tell him [about it], and the latter would say “Keep your wife,” and Zayd would say “O Messenger of God, I shall divorce her,” and the Prophet would say “Keep your wife.” Zayd divorced her [all the same] and abstained from her, and she became lawful [for marriage]. [One day], while talking to ‘A’ishah, the Prophet fainted. On regaining consciousness he smiled and said “Who will go to Zaynab to bring her the glad tidings that God from above gave her to me in marriage?” The Prophet [then] recited “Recall when thou wert saying to him upon whom Allah bestowed favor and upon whom thou didst bestow favor.” ‘A’ishah narrated: I was upset by both near and remote troubles, having heard of Zaynab’s BEAUTY. What was more, the greatest and noblest of all things happened to her, as God from heaven gave her in marriage. I said [to myself] “She is going to boast of it to us.” (The History of al-Tabari: Biographies of the Prophet’s Companions and Their Successors, translated by Ella Landau-Tasseron [State University of New York Press (SUNY), Albany 1998], Volume XXXIX (39), pp. 180-181)
First we will look into the back ground and history of the people involved in this affair, and later raise some important questions into this alleged revelation of Allah.
Zaid bin Muhammad: “He was born as Zaid b. Harith and belonged to the Christian tribe of Bani Kalb from south of Syria. When young, he was carried away and sold into slavery, and was presented by Khadija to Muhammad. Muhammad liked him very much and in the end freed him and adopted Zaid as his son. Muhammad took him to the black stone of the Ka’aba and said: “Bear testimony, all ye that are present. Zaid is my son; I will be his heir and he shall be mine.” (W. Muir, The Life of Muhammad, ed. T.H. Wair, p. 35). Zaid was one of the first to accept Islam. When Zaid grew up, Muhammad chose Zainab for him, but Zainab rejected the proposal. Zainab was a beautiful Hashemite women of high rank. Later, Muhammad claimed that al-Ahzab 33:36 was revealed to command the obedience of Zainab. Zainab then agreed to marry Zaid.
Some hadiths that support the above account:
“Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab that he was asked about the suckling of an older person. He said, ”Urwa ibn az-Zubayr informed me that Abu Hudhayfa ibn Utba ibn Rabia, one of the companions of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, who was present at Badr, adopted Salim (who is called Salim, the mawla of Abu Hudhayfa) as the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ADOPTED ZAYD IBN HARITH. He thought of him as his son, and Abu Hudhayfa married him to his brother’s sister, Fatima bint al-Walid ibn Utba ibn Rabia, who was at that time among the first emigrants. She was one of the best unmarried women of the Quraysh. When Allah the Exalted sent down in His Book what He sent down about Zayd ibn Haritha, ‘Call them after their true fathers. That is more equitable in the sight of Allah. If you do not know who their fathers were then they are your brothers in the deen and your mawali,’ (Sura 33 ayat 5) people in this position were traced back to their fathers. When the father was not known, they were traced to their mawla… (Malik’s Muwatta, Book 30, Number 30.2.12)
3. According to the following hadith he was called by others as ‘Zaid bin Muhammad’ until Muhammad came up with a self-serving revelation in 33:5
Narrated Abdullah bin Umar:
We USED NOT TO CALL Zaid bin Haritha the freed slave of Allah’s Apostle EXCEPT ZAID BIN MUHAMMAD till the Qur’anic Verse was revealed: “Call them (adopted sons) by (the names of) their fathers. That is more than just in the Sight of Allah.” (33.5) (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 305)
4. Far be from God Almighty to cause such a revelation as 33:37 specifically to condone certain divorces so that his prophets may marry the wives of other men! This is thoroughly unwarranted relaxation of God’s express laws set forth in the Scriptures of the prophets of old (He who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery [Luke 16.18]; “’For I hate divorce,’ says the LORD, the God of Israel.” [Malachi 2:16]).
5. In the light of the above points here are some questions:
a. How can anyone expect such a blatant violation of the moral law of God from the so-called last prophet?
b. Even if one were to accept such an immoral revelation what are the justification and resultant good of this whole scandalous revelation?
c. Even if this is a valid revelation why couldn’t Muhammad bring it on some other occasion rather than at this time of his need?
d. Why can’t we conclude that this is one of the own self-serving revelations of Muhammad?
e. Even the Muslim historian gives the account that exposes Muhammad’s lust. Why do Muslims think and accept Muhammad’s own poetry that he brought forth to justify his own ends as God’s word written on golden plates and preserved in heaven?
f. Why do you think Tabari’s account is a fabricated story? Is it because it hurts your feelings for it exposes your beloved prophet’s true nature?
g. If you think that Tabari who was a pious Muslim would fabricate or include fabricated stories against his beloved prophet in his important work, please explain why did he do that after all? Did he do that to deceive pagans or Muslims or Christians or himself?
Adil
Dear M Comforter,
You wrote:
“Regarding stupid story and salvation of Christianity:
i. Let me correct your Greek language gymnastic first, regarding Monogenes.
You, with play of words, made the meaning of Monogenes to be “only one of it’s kind” instead of simple and obvious meaning “only son”. Why don’t you use the same translation of Monogenes when it is used in other place for others and there it is translated as “only son”. Let me give you proof from the story of city of Nain .
Luke 7:12 Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the ONLY SON of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her. Do you know the word translated here as “the only son” in Greek is written as Monogenes. So, according to you the man who died was “only one of it’s kind” rather than “the only son” to his mother. Brother you can’t escape with such gymnastic. Here (John 31:6) it only means “the only son” as in other instances and even the literal stress in the form of the only BEGOTTEN son was not appropriate and bible scholars found it that Monogenes in other place is translated as “only son”, so the word begotten is not correct and it is just an insinuation (addition of extra word) in the process of translation. If you want to know another instance of insinuation in your Malayalam translation of bible, in the process of translation, tell me I will show it how and where it happened in your Malayalam bible, with proof. It is more than just choice of word rather putting of some extra word.
My response:
1. Almost all of the Islamic apologists and their websites having hard-time in understanding the Biblical Greek term ‘monogenes.’ Mainly because their approach to understand this term is based on Islamic reasoning! Yet they try unsuccessfully with all their power to prove it against the Bible!
2. In perfect harmony with your Islamic logic you wrote, “You, with play of words, made the meaning of monogenes to be “only one of it’s kind” instead of simple and obvious meaning “only son”.”
Alright, let me try to explain it more clearly to see if you can get it…
Strictly speaking if you want to say just ‘only son’ in Greek then that would be ‘monos huios.’ In Greek ‘monos’ is ‘only’ and ‘huios’ is ‘son.’ But here in the verse we see ‘monogenes huios.’
The word ‘monogenes’ comes from two Greek words—‘monos’ (only) and ‘genos’ (kind/type). Although the word ‘monogenes’ does contain the meaning ‘only’ it conveys a wider meaning than just ‘only’ as it contains ‘genos’ also. I gave in my previous posting the meaning of ‘monogenes’ as ‘unique’ or ‘only one of his/its kind.’ According to the Enhanced Strong’s Greek Lexicon the word ‘monogenes’ means single of its kind, only (used of only sons or daughters [viewed in relation to their parents]; used of Christ).
In Greek the word for ‘begat/brought forth’ is ‘gennao.’ Both ‘huios’ (son) and ‘gennao’ (begat/brought forth) have been used in the Bible literally as well as metaphorically (I hope you still can understand the difference between literal and metaphorical). Here are some examples:
a) ‘gennao’ (begat)—literal (Matthew 1:16; Luke 1:13), metaphorical (John 3:5; Galatians 4:24)
b) ‘huios’ (son)—literal (Luke 2:7; John 4:5), metaphorical (Acts 4:36; Mark 3:17)
In the same way the word ‘monogenes’ has been used in the Bible with reference to both literal son/daughter (Luke 7:12; Luke 8:42; Luke 9:38) and metaphorical son (John 1:18; John 3:16; John 3:18)
3. In the Bible we see phrases like ‘one son’ (‘heis huios’—Mark 12:6) and ‘only son’ (‘monogenes huios’—Luke 9:38). Although they seem to be similar, yet there is a significant difference between the ‘one son’ and the ‘only son.’ The ‘one son’ phrase focuses on the number of son (just one) a father/mother has. Whereas the ‘only son’ phrase emphasizes the uniqueness or preciousness of the son a father/mother has.
4. In Luke 7:12 it is neither ‘mono huios’ (only son), nor ‘heis huios’ (one son), nor even ‘monogennetos’ (only-born or only begotten [literal]), but it is ‘monogenes’(unique and dear). When the Greek word ‘monogenes’ is used in reference to the son of the widow in Luke 7:12 it emphasized the fact that she had no other son like him, but him. Within the given context of the verse it is obvious that the word ‘only’ for ‘monogenes’ captured the whole meaning of the fact that ‘he was the single of his kind’ son to her. To make this point clear some translations used ‘one and only’ for ‘monogenes.’ In any case, the idea is not just ‘only’ in this verse in which case it should have been ‘monos huios’ (‘only son’) rather it is ‘monogenes huios’ (‘only one of his kind son or unique and dear son’). Any way, I don’t expect you to understand this translation nuance because information of this sort is too heavy for you to understand. Just leave it! This explanation I have given for the sake of readers.
You wrote:
“And again you tried to cover it with a misquotation from Quran. Brother, in Quran it is just choice of words in different translation not the addition of extra word. You said in Yusuf Ali translation of 1946, in Quran 20:126, the word used was “ be disregarded” and in 1990 it is changed to “be forgotten”. Brother, both of these words can be used with the same meaning. See the whole verse you will be able to see the equality. By the way for your information, same publisher in the year 1994, when published translation by Muhsin Khan and Hilali, the word kept there is “be disregarded”.
Mohsin Khan (1994) Quran 20:126
(Allâh) will say: “Like this, Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) came unto you, but you DISREGARDED them (i.e. you left them, did not think deeply in them, and you turned away from them), and so this Day, you will be neglected (in the Hell-fire, away from Allâh’s Mercy).
It also says other possible alternative but similar meaning (in bracket) of the same word i.e. be left, be turned away. You are trying to compare this choice of word by different authors to addition of or deletion of words, verses and even chapters as we can see in the Bible. Tell me I will give you a list where one edition has few verses more than others (to remind you it is not just translation problem but literal loss or addition of many verses from word of God). Brother, I think this much light was enough to expose the matter which you tried to cover.
By the way brother we have original Arabic with us and any moment it can be verified, but you seriously lack the original word of God in language of Jesus (Aramaic or Hebrew), you can’t even verify. Only thing you have, are thousands of greek manuscript of new testament and amazingly no two are duplicate to each other. May God give you vision to see the truth.”
My responses:
1. In my previous posting I referred to the word choices in the translations of the Quran, but not to say they are totally two different meanings when you hypocritically tried to make an issue of the word choices (‘begotten’ and ‘only’) in the translations of the Bible.
2. Regarding the versions of the Quran and the Bible…
Well, in your typical sincerity and fanaticism you may say all the crap that you want Muslims to believe by hiding the fact that Caliph Uthman collected different conflicting versions of the Quran of his time and managed to make a complied version of his own as official text and then ordered to burn out all the other collected versions in order to destroy the evidence for Quranic confusion. But you can’t fool others while your own Islamic sources clearly imply this. If you want to know that more please ask me I’ll give you the details next time.
You wrote:
“By the way brother we have original Arabic with us and any moment it can be verified, but you seriously lack the original word of God in language of Jesus (Aramaic or Hebrew), you can’t even verify.”
My responses:
1. Wow! Looks like you got some impressive evidence for the Quran! According to your Islamic hadith stories originally the Quran was recorded by Muhammad’s companions on stones, leaves, bones etc. as and when it was recited by Muhammad. So, that original Quran (written on stones, leaves and bones) is still preserved faithfully? That’s amazing! Please give us the address of that place to check your truthfulness. Of course, if you are a boastful liar you can’t give us the address. At this point, in order to verify the truthfulness of your boasting, I am not interested in the second or third or later edited and abridged versions of the Quran. Please let us know the details of the so-called ‘original Quran’ only! It would be very helpful if you don’t waste our time by beating around the bush in this matter.
2. For example if you have several conflicting Arabic Qurans with you now and you being a good Muslim schemed like Quranic Allah and kept just one of them intact and burned out the other conflicting Arabic Qurans. A thousand years later, if somebody comes along and claims that the Quran has been the same without any change from the beginning because just one of the several conflicting copies has been preserved, why should others take it seriously?
3. Any way, your boasting is worth testing. Please let us know what you mean by ‘original Arabic (Quran) with us?!’ You mean the original Quran written by Muhammad? With us?! You mean with you or some other Muslims? If so where is it? By the way, I read that Muhammad received Quran in seven different styles from the alleged Angel. Do you have all those seven with you or some of them got eaten by animals or just lost because they were not protected? Or is it just another lie of the people like you to hide something that exposes Islam?
You wrote:
“The stupid story and trying to cover up the face by misquoting hadith to justify their mistake. You said “Mr. M. Comforter conveniently forgot to mention the Islamic STUPID story that rivals Fais’ story”. My response: I think it is you who conveniently rather deliberately forgot the details of this so called Islamic stupid story. Because I already, cleared each and every question related to this hadith in past and you are misquoting it again. Anybody with conscience will never do. But you are repeatedly doing that. Either you are stubborn, suffering from forgetfulness or hypocrite. Readers can read the comment19 (onwards), for the detail of this hadith. For those who don’t have time and joined us lately, I would explain it in brief.
Sahih Muslim Book 037, Number 6668 : “Abu Burda reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to ‘Umar b. ‘Abd al-‘Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes.” It is explained (in Sharah an Nawwi), that this hadith is circumstantial, it is related to those sin which is being instigated by Christians and Jews (known fact that they are master in inventing sins as well), and Muslims following them. But if Muslim asks for forgiveness then they will be forgiven . (There is high chance muslims will ask for forgiveness. Because, Muslims are always fearful from sin even if they commit, they know they have to ask for forgiveness to get rid of them, instead of their Christian brothers who believe somebody has already died for his sin and jews who think they are the God’s personal creation and will not be punished ). But the Christians and Jews will get the hell for their misdeeds (instigating sins and not asking for forgiveness) which initially seemed to be occupied by Muslim. And Quran supports this Quran 17:15 “Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: NO BEARER OF BURDENS CAN BEAR THE BURDEN OF ANOTHER: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning).” Quran 2: 62. Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .
So, Having the label of Jew and Christian is not enough for getting hell, you have to invent and propagate sins and forget the God and his forgiveness to get it (According to Islam). It is your problem.”
My responses:
1. So you still want to wrangle about the stupid stories. This shows me why you have not accepted my decent suggestion to do some meaningful and fruitful discussions. I hope even the readers can understand why you reject good suggestions and cling on to silly arguments. In order to keep you satisfied here I am going to quote two ‘stories’ without explaining them, one from you and one from me so that the readers themselves can make out which one is the stupid story and which writer is the stupid guy and which of them is more accurate in describing which religion:
a) Story quoted by M Comforter: “…All the bad people of this city stood before the judge and claimed “oh just judge, we know we are bad people and we have done bad things, but please! do not punish us let us go! because there is one among us in our city who has never done anything bad in his whole life. infact, he has always told us to stay away from bad things, but we never listened, so please punish this man instead!!!” And so, upon hearing this, the judge had this goodly man (PROBABLY HIMSELF) quite immediately arrested and and put infront of a firing squad and given a gruesome penalty of death. The bad people were let go in return, and the bad people returned to their bad ways. THE END! : oh, did I mention the good man was THE JUDGE HIMSELF (or, the son of the judge in Hebrew language)?”
b) Story quoted by Adil: ““The last religion” In the year of elephant a baby boy was born into a pagan family in a desert place. When this pagan child grew up into adulthood an old cunning lady fooled him into marrying her. Whenever his married life became unbearable he used to escape into a nearby cave under the disguise of meditation in seclusion. The pagan deities he used to worship could not rescue him from this constant suffering. Since he had known some worshippers of one God in his area whenever he was taking shelter in the cave he used to dream of becoming a prophet of that one God. Satan took this opportunity and approached him and told him that he was an angel sent by the one God. The pagan man was bit confused about the visitation of Satan. He told the same to his cunning wife. In order to save her marriage his cunning wife took him to an accomplice and successfully convinced her pagan husband that Satan who visited him in the cave was indeed the angel of one God. Satan began to give him pieces of information from different sources as the book of one God. The pagan man believed all that and passed it on to his followers. In the course of time his cunning wife died and by then he had the taste of popularity, position, power and plunder. Slowly he became a wicked cunning dictator. He used unthinkable violence, worldly incentives, and threats of Satan’s piecemeal revelations to win converts. Caravan raids, assassinations, torture, deceit, lust and superstitious beliefs became his way of life. He controlled his followers by stipulating rules and regulations how to pass wind, how to wash private parts, how to engage in sex etc. He posed himself as a wise man and prescribed urine as medicine while threatening his followers with torture in their graves if they soil themselves with urine, and declared dirty flies in their drinks as blessing! Although he himself was bewitched by demons he gave revelations to ward of demons! He bragged to know that the sun sets everyday in muddy waters, Satan sleeps in human noses and urinates in human ears! His wise sayings include “yawning from Satan and fever from hell”! All this was some how very appealing and convincing to his followers who are not more intelligent than he. In the end he was successful in uniting all the people who are deficient in their intelligence with his new religion and was able to spread his prophethood and his original pagan practices such as bowing down to a stone five times a day! Now his followers staunchly believe that because of all this the pagan man had entered into paradise and been enjoying sex with 70 or more virgins all the time while drinking lots of wine and honey. Interestingly both genders of his followers are now uncertainly looking forward to enjoy the same heaven as their prophet when they die. This is the gist of the new religion and the plight of the masses.” (This is by Furkat Z at http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/verbatim/make-sure-you-build-your-house-right-you-need-a-prophet-to-tell-you-that/ Personally I would prefer to use ‘Muslims’ for the last word ‘masses.’ However, I haven’t done any modifications to this story.)
2. You tried to explain away the following hadith:
Sahih Muslim Book 037, Number 6668 : “Abu Burda reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to ‘Umar b. ‘Abd al-‘Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes.”
But the following excerpts from an Islamic book support the same idea in the above hadith:
412. ‘Ubada ibn as-Samit reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “Whoever testifies that there is no god but Allah alone with no partner and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger and that ‘Isa is the slave of Allah and His Messenger and a word which He cast into Maryam and a spirit from Him and that the Garden is real and the Fire is real will enter the Garden WHATEVER HIS ACTIONS.” [Agreed upon]
415. Anas said, “The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, was riding with Mu’adh behind him. He said, ‘Mu’adh!’ He replied, ‘At your service, Messenger of Allah.’ He said, ‘Mu’adh!’ He replied, ‘At your service, Messenger of Allah’ three times. Then the Prophet said, ‘There is no one who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, sincerely from his heart, without Allah making it unlawful for the Fire to touch him.’ Mu’adh said, ‘Messenger of Allah, shall I tell the people that so that they can rejoice?’ He said, ‘Then they will rely on it.’ Mu’adh related it when he was dying, fearing to commit a wrong action [by concealing the knowledge].” [Agreed upon]
432. Abu Musa al-Ash’ari reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “On the Day of Rising, Allah will hand over a Jew or a Christian to every Muslim and say, ‘Here is your redemption from the Fire.’” [Muslim]
In another variant from him is that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “Some of the Muslims will be brought on the Day of Rising with sins the size of mountains and Allah will forgive them.” (Al-Imam Abu Zakariya Yahya bin Sharaf An-Nawawi Ad-Dimashqi, Riyad as-Salihin (The Meadows of the Righteous), 51. Chapter: On Hope.
3. In your vain effort you tried to explain it away by quoting someone like you, “It is explained (in Sharah an Nawwi), that this hadith is circumstantial, it is related to those sin which is being instigated by Christians and Jews (known fact that they are master in inventing sins as well), and Muslims following them. But if Muslim asks for forgiveness then they will be forgiven . (There is high chance muslims will ask for forgiveness. Because, Muslims are always fearful from sin even if they commit, they know they have to ask for forgiveness to get rid of them, instead of their Christian brothers who believe somebody has already died for his sin and jews who think they are the God’s personal creation and will not be punished ). But the Christians and Jews will get the hell for their misdeeds (instigating sins and not asking for forgiveness) which initially seemed to be occupied by Muslim. And Quran supports this Quran 17:15 “Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: NO BEARER OF BURDENS CAN BEAR THE BURDEN OF ANOTHER: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning).” Quran 2: 62. Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .
So, Having the label of Jew and Christian is not enough for getting hell, you have to invent and propagate sins and forget the God and his forgiveness to get it (According to Islam). It is your problem.”
Please re-read the hadith:
Sahih Muslim Book 037, Number 6668 : “Abu Burda reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to ‘Umar b. ‘Abd al-‘Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes.”
In the above hadith we see the following points…
i. It is referring to the Day of Resurrection
ii. On that day Muslims would come to Allah
iii. Some of the Muslims come with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN
iv. Allah would forgive them for whatever reasons
v. Allah would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jew and Christians
a) More or less the same theme is repeated in three different hadiths which I will quote them later. None of them indicate that the ‘HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN’ are the sins that are instigated by Christians and Jews.
b) As far as the sins of the Muslims are concerned there could be other people (like Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists etc.) who might instigate Muslims to commit the same sins. What about them? Why not those people mentioned here along with Christians and Jews if Sharah Nawwi’s wild imagination and invention is correct?
c) If Jews and Christians have instigated Muslims to commit sin or not, anyway both Jews and Christians would go to hell according to Muhammad’s Quran because they recognize Muhammad as false prophet and Quran as Muhammad’s self-serving revelation. They flat out reject Islam. In what way Sharah Nawwi’s enlightened explanation makes here any difference to poor Jews and Christians?!
d) The hadith (like the other two hadiths) clearly say ALLAH WOULD PLACE IN THEIR (MUSLIMS) STEAD THE JEW AND CHRISTIANS. This will supposedly take place even before anyone occupies hell i.e. on the day of resurrection. There is nothing like Muslims taking Christians place in heaven or Christians taking Muslims place in hell. According to Islam everyone is already created with their predetermined destination. To say all this is silly would be understatement!
My friend, you try hard and hard and hard in order to make some sense out of these Islamic myths, lies and stupid stories. Until you come out of your illusion you won’t find truth.
4. It seems to me that you are finding it hard to understand ‘salvation’ according to the Bible. That is perfectly understandable to us. However, let’s see how much anybody can understand ‘salvation’ according to so-called final revelation of Muhammad’s Quran. Of course of which you wrote, “Brother, Islamic salvation is VERY SIMPLE (I already explained to you in detail). Believe in Him and his creation and ask for sincere forgiveness. He will forgive. For god everything is easy. He needs only the wish “be” and “it is”.” Here let’s see how SIMPLE it is…
Salvation According to Islam:
(a) According to the Quran ‘salvation’ is granted to those who follow Islamic faith and do good deeds:
And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they say: this is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance. There for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide. (Quran 2:25)
Nay, those who seek gain in evil, and are girt round by their sins, – they are companions of the Fire: Therein shall they abide (For ever). But those who have faith and work righteousness, they are companions of the Garden: Therein shall they abide (For ever). (Quran 2:81-82)
Men and women who have surrendered, believing men and believing women, obedient men and obedient women, truthful men and truthful women, enduring men and enduring women, humble men and humble women, men and women who give in charity, men who fast and women who fast, men and women who guard their private parts, men and women who remember God oft — for them God has prepared forgiveness and a mighty wage. (Quran 33:35)
(b) According to the Quran and hadiths the ‘salvation’ is given to those on whom Allah bestows his grace and mercy, but not based on good deeds:
O ye who believe! follow not Satan’s footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of God on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but God doth purify whom He pleases: and God is One Who hears and knows (all things). (Quran 24:21)
“Narrated Abu Huraira:
I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise.” (i.e., None can enter Paradise through his good deeds.) They (the Prophet’s companions) said, “Not even you, O Allah’s Apostle?” He said, “Not even myself, unless Allah bestows His favor and mercy on me.” So be moderate in your religious deeds and do the deeds that are within your ability: and none of you should wish for death, for if he is a good doer, he may increase his good deeds, and if he is an evil doer, he may repent to Allah.”” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 70, Number 577)
“Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet said, “Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and receive good news because one’s good deeds will NOT make him enter Paradise.” They asked, “Even you, O Allah’s Apostle?” He said, “Even I, unless and until Allah bestows His pardon and Mercy on me.”” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Number 474)
(c) According to the hadiths a Muslim who dies confessing the Shahadah, the Islamic profession of faith that there is no god except Allah, will enter paradise even if that person has lived a grossly immoral life!
“Narrated Abu Dharr:
I came to the Prophet while he was wearing white clothes and sleeping. Then I went back to him again after he had got up from his sleep. He said, “Nobody says: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’ and then later on he dies while believing in that, except that he will enter Paradise.” I said, “Even It he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft.” I said, “Even if he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft? He said. “Even If he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft.” I said, “Even it he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and thefts.” He said, “Even If he had committed Illegal sexual intercourse and theft, in spite of Abu Dharr’s dislikeness.” Abu ‘Abdullah said, “This is at the time of death or before it if one repents and regrets and says ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’, he will be forgiven his sins.”” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 717)
“Narrated Abu Dharr:
The Prophet said, Gabriel came to me and gave me the glad tidings that anyone who died without worshipping anything besides Allah, would enter Paradise. I asked (Gabriel), ‘Even if he committed theft, and even if he committed illegal sexual intercourse?’ He said, ‘(Yes), even if he committed theft, and even if he committed illegal sexual intercourse.”” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 579)
But this contradicts the Quranic declaration that the repentance of a person at death is not accepted:
“Repentance with Allah is only for those who do evil in ignorance, then turn (to Allah) soon, so these it is to whom Allah turns (mercifully), and Allah is ever Knowing, Wise. And repentance is not for those who go on doing evil deeds, until when death comes to one of them, he says: Surely now I repent; nor (for) those who die while they are unbelievers. These are they for whom We have prepared a painful chastisement.” (Quran 4:17-18)
“So when they saw Our punishment, they said: “We believe in Allah Alone and reject (all) that we used to associate with Him as (His) partners. Then their Faith (in Islamic Monotheism) could not avail them when they saw Our punishment. (Like) this has been the way of Allah in dealing with His slaves. And there the disbelievers lost utterly (when Our Torment covered them).” (Quran 40:84-85)
(d) According to some hadiths Christians and Jews will be punished instead of Muslims:
“Abu Musa’ reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your RESCUE from Hell-Fire.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6665)
“Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. ‘Umar b. Abd al-‘Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him).” (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6666)
“Abu Burda reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to ‘Umar b. ‘Abd al-‘Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6668)
But the above hadiths contradict the Quran:
Quran 17:15 “Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: NO BEARER OF BURDENS CAN BEAR THE BURDEN OF ANOTHER: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning).”
(e) According to some hadiths Muslims will be saved because of Muhammad’s intercession:
“Narrated ‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar:
The Prophet said, “A man keeps on asking others for something till he comes on the Day of Resurrection without any piece of flesh on his face.” The Prophet added, “On the Day of Resurrection, the Sun will come near (to, the people) to such an extent that the sweat will reach up to the middle of the ears, so, when all the people are in that state, they will ask Adam for help, and then Moses, and then Muhammad (p.b.u.h).” The sub-narrator added “Muhammad will intercede with Allah to judge amongst the people. He will proceed on till he will hold the ring of the door (of Paradise) and then Allah will exalt him to Maqam Mahmud (the privilege of intercession, etc.). And all the people of the gathering will send their praises to Allah.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume
2, Book 24, Number 553)
“Narrated Anas ibn Malik:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: My intercession will be for those of my people who have committed major sins.” (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 40, Number 4721)
But the above hadiths contradict the Quranic teaching that Muhammad doesn’t even know about his own status:
“Say (O Muhammad SAW):”I am not a new thing among the Messengers (of Allah) (i.e. I am not the first Messenger) nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am but a plain warner.”” (Quran 46:9)
And the above hadiths also run counter to the other hadith stories such as the following:
“Narrated Abu Huraira:
When Allah revealed the Verse: “Warn your nearest kinsmen,” Allah’s Apostle got up and said, “O people of Quraish (or said similar words)! Buy (i.e. save) yourselves (from the Hellfire) as I cannot save you from Allah’s Punishment; O Bani Abd Manaf! I cannot save you from Allah’s Punishment, O Safiya, the Aunt of Allah’s Apostle! I cannot save you from Allah’s Punishment; O Fatima bint Muhammad! Ask me anything from my wealth, but I cannot save you from Allah’s Punishment.”” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 51, Number 16)
(f) Finally it is Allah’s predetermination that decides people’s destiny. This contradicts all the above:
“Those whom Allah wills to guide, He opens their breast to Islam; Those whom He wills to leave straying, – he makes their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus does Allah lay abomination on those who refuse to believe.” (Quran 6:125)
“And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers? And it is not for a soul to believe except by Allah’s permission; and He casts uncleanness on those who will not understand.” (Quran 10:99-100)
“‘A’isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah’s Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: ‘A’isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father’s loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father’s loins.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6436)
Now please let us know how you are going to reconcile all these different accounts on Islamic salvation from (a) to (f). You may have great faith in the above sayings but try to give the readers a rational way of making sense out of all of them without contradicting one another. By the way, thanks a lot for entertaining the readers by saying, “Brother, Islamic salvation is VERY SIMPLE…” You know what, now readers can see very clearly that boasting for you is also very simple!
Adil
In the name of Allah most Gracious most merciful.
And say: “Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish.” Quran 17:81
Brother, it delighted me to see your another futile attempt to hide your face in the length of words. I think even if I don’t reply, your frustration is, inshallah, self evident to the readers. Still I’ll touch your little play of words and exposure of your lies.
I thought, at least you will show some decency and apologize for your misdeed, instead you tried to escape swiftly. In the last posting I exposed your many lies, even your wrong quotation i.e. a quoted lie from a hadith created by yourself ( But you can’t lie and escape) accusing our prophet Mohammad pbuh of drinking wine (nauzbillah).
You told ,”…. whether I am wasting my valuable time and energy in trying to get the truth into someone who is blind, biased and closed! ”
My response : Where is the so called truth? You could not prove one instance. Obviously, you misquoted few verses of your Bible but could not withstand any logic and evidence, presented to you.Yes don’t waste time in giving illogical logic and copie quotation, instead devote sometime in proper study from genuine sources and ask God for guidance.
When I doubted, You may skip your “more to flollow” (as in past), you objected: “…Even if you can’t see the truth readers do. Let me go ahead analyzing your responses to my posting 48 instead of wasting my time on your silly reasoning and childish whining. ”
After this also, you did the same i.e. escaped “more to follow” i.e. escaped the major portion of my comments in post 46.
e.g.
a. I proved your theory of “Echad” to be wrong and a manipulation. No answers from you.
b. I proved again how Jesus was human (like other human) and prophet.
c. I asked who controlled the universe for 3 days and 3 nights when your “Three in one” God died for this period.
d. Final dose on hadith of fly and how I bashed your illogical reasoning.
e. You did not respond to my complement that you are behaving like muslims now.
f. In copy cat dialoguing I re-exposed your manipulation. And explained to you regarding Quranic revelation and preservation and role of hadith in Quranic interpretation. And I exposed your lie regarding Quran by Muhammad or Zaid (Nauzbillah).
g. I cleared your so called scientific errors of Quran esp. regarding angels (Quran 37: 6-8), regarding sun and moon (Quran 36: 40), regarding clot (Quran 96: 2), and prohibition of compulsion in religion of Islam (Quran 2: 256 & Quran 9: 29).
Etc. etc.
So, I assume, you agree with me at least on all those issues. So please don’t be stubborn hypocrite by quoting all those again to fill pages. And I expect a little decency from you, to not to quote these things to me or any other innocent soul. May be, this be your first step towards truth. May God guide you and remove you from this illusion around you of fake knowledge and show off in conferences and trips and offer you a halal type of profession.
Brother, you can’t escape like this. There are eyes monitoring you. Readers are intelligent.
You came with such a big response in two sections, created over two months but with no proper content inside, instead you preferred abusing me, Islam and muslim community and playing with words and quoting and quoting without remembering that most of them have been answered before. Every time I am reminding you for certain things, which you are not liking, still repeating the same (as we saw above in the matter of escaping). What do you call this? No need to give a “word” to it, it is obvious (you may compare it with your abuse).
After all those points already been answered you are saying, “Please give me one, just one convincing argument to my objections so far. ”
My response: Another big lie from you. Whole debate, since the first posting is there to verify your claim. I redirect you to the first comment till the last one. I can’t copy and paste all these. Even if I do, moderator will not publish as it is violation of the rules here. So, in short I would repeat, show me one instance where I escaped the argument without giving a reply to it. And if you feel any of my argument could not satisfy you, you have full right to express your feeling (not only hatred and abuse) and reject it. In the process of dialogue if you could not ask further question, it is obvious that either you are satisfied or you have no more arguments. In any case, I did my job.
You said, “……Since both somebodys have committed violence to each other, why should the second somebody whine and cry like a losing child about what the first somebody has done? Maybe the second somebody is endowed with ISLAMIC REASONING and that’s why he thinks he has a right to whine and cry……”
My response: Read the whole debate since first comment and tell me how many times I abused Christians for your mistake, or how many times I used wrong word for Jesus pbuh. Whenever I found your mistake I gave the credit to you. If I was abusive, I would have done the same as you have been doing. I have no problem if you SEEM (which is not the case as I already proved in all the instances) to find any mistake of me and telling me about that or even abusing me for that, but why this foul mouthing and abusing Islam, Muslim community and my prophet and even God for the same. You can see even in this comment you are doing the same. Still, you think I am same like you. This is your hallucination and mis-presentation, not the truth. Readers who have been following thoroughly know your language, I don’t need to guide them or mislead them (the way you are trying to do with your words).
You said,
If my above statement, “The materials of the original records WERE NOT ‘IMMORTALS.’ Although they were inspired they were SUBJECTED TO DISINTEGRATION AND DESTRUCTION” is a proof to assume that the present day Bible is no more God’s word to you then the readers can understand HOW SOUND IS THE ISLAMIC LOGIC IN THE END .Thanks for confirming my comments on Islamic logic. Think straight. Materials and message are two different things! My comments are on the materials, but not on the message.
My response:
Brother, you tried another play of words here. Let me expose you clearly. Here is the difference in the preservation of holy books. Message of the Bible has been preserved through material (manuscripts), so any disintegration or destruction to the material will cause the similar effect to the message. That’s what happened to Bible. But in the Quran the message was preserved by MEMORIZING the whole book i.e. first to last verse and that also not by one person, rather by hundreds of thousands of the muslims that also since the time of prophet Mohammad (pbuh). So, surely in this case material doesn’t have much role in message preservation. Here again you started accusing Islam (See the capitals above). Don’t say that I am calling you abusive by nature, rather I am pointing your abusive nature with proof.
You wrote:
…. By the way, in order to argue foolishly they can go to any extent. Here is the Islamic testimony to the fact how a goat had eaten the so-called the oldest Quran’s material (Ibn Maja, Nikah, 36.1944, Ibn Hanbal, 5.131,132,183, 6.269)
My response:
This is not only you, rather many other orientalists project this matter as something related to tampering in message of Islam. By the way if I say you, last week I saw one goat was eating a copy of a “holy book”. Does it mean that holy book changed because of that. It could be, if it was a source book and only book and only way of it being preserved. But in the case of Quran (as in above stories), neither of these are true. To remind you, Quran is preserved by memorization not material, in the form of paper or bone or leaf or eaten paper or eaten leaf. This is another mis-presentation from you and all those who are propagating. For further knowledge on this topic you can read my debate on this link.
http://muslimmatters.org/2008/11/15/my-passion-for-jesus-christ/
You wrote:
While falsely assuming that you were ‘exposing’ my deception you displayed time and again your ISLAMIC DECEPTION and yet failed to realize it. It’s a pity. In my research I use different websites that expose Islamic foolishness and hatred against the Bible. Sometimes I use their information in my posting. You just try deal with my posting if you can. Instead you resort to attacking on Bro. Sam Shamoun and his website every now and then…….
My response:
Brother, many a times your words are just a copy from that of Mr. Sam’s website, that impulse me to direct my response to both of you. It is all the times either a lie or misquotation or mis-presentation (of course every time I have proved it ) and is actually far from the Truth, so obviously it reminds me of nothing but liar or satan. Mr. Sam doesn’t have the courage to face this on his website. There is no way of presenting public comment (unlike Sakshi) on his website. Still peoples have given him good and fitting response in different ways. I am also planning to create a platform to expose his lies. I also think that it is not correct to drag others into our debate. So, inshallah now onwards I will try to avoid his name unless I am forced to do that. As far as Dr. Zakir Naik is concerned, May Allah bless him a long life. I have no personal relation or interaction with him. I just love him for his knowledge and memory and smartness in exposing truth. He is one of the best in his field of knowledge related to Islam (Daawah). I also prefer not bringing him into my debate unless I am forced to. He is very frank in his comment so he disturbed the business of many peoples (among muslims as well). So, it was bound to have reaction from certain sects of Islam. But still without doubt he is the leading Muslim speaker of India having following much more than all his opponents together command.
Your next comment:
THANKS FOR DISPLAYING YOUR ISLAMIC LOGIC AGAIN HERE. What else I can expect from someone who thinks of a ‘terrifying spirit’ encounter as the inspiration from God?! In addition to that you gratify yourself that you answered my objections as well as Bro Sam’s objections on his website to your Islamic faith. Nothing could be further from the truth…..
My response:
Again you started abusing Islam to hide your face. I already proved you this matter regarding inspiration. If you could not understand a point you should ask about that or if you could not accept my logic give a reason, instead of repeating the same as I presented in your way of presentation. Is it logic or hypocrisy? I should not use “the word”, peoples can understand your attitude. You may use “this word” to compare your literal abuse.
Your state, remind me of a famous local story. One early morning two friends (X & Y) were walking and talking. Suddenly X saw a chicken with one leg, he got amazed and told to Y, “did you see ever see a chicken with one leg? I know about one such which I am seeing for long time “(boasted). On that Y told to show him if he knew one. He immediately showed that chicken, seen standing there having one leg. Y doubted and threw a pebble to see it walking, suddenly chicken brought her another leg down (which she had previously folded up, probably cleaning or warming or ?meditating) and started running. X got embarrassed but he had character of something like Mr. Christian Adil. And he started telling, no no no, it was chicken with one leg only and started giving silly excuses. Not only that, whenever there is discussion about that chicken, he will say that chicken was with one leg. What should we call such person. I must not use “the word”, somebody may call me abusive for presenting the truth. But surely, You are a typical character X.
Brother, try to accept the truth gracefully. Because by trying to hide your face by silly excuses you may think you can mislead people but truly speaking you are trying to satisfy yourself only, even your conscience on occasion will tickle you. May God help you.
Your next comment:
Well, THE SAME OLD ISLAMIC LOGIC AND FOOLISHNESS. God Almighty is the one who gave us the Torah, Zabur and Injil. God Almighty is not like the Arabian deities who cannot even protect their books from being eaten by animals. He not only completed His revelation in these books but also preserved them……………
My response:
Again you started abusing Islam to hide your face. If suppose any mischief tears your Bible or any goat or rat happens to eat it’s pages, would you allege God as “… Roman deity who could not protect his book. Don’t you think you are behaving as “the word”. I am not using “the literal word” but you know it. I don’t want to be called abusive for presenting the truth.
Your next comment:
You wrote that Lord Jesus Christ is only man but not God according to the Bible. Please don’t read the Bible as you read Muhammad’s poems. Can you show me one verse in the Bible that says Jesus is NOT God? Again please don’t use ISLAMIC LOGIC to prove your point. The Bible does say that Jesus is man. If the Bible says Jesus is fully man it doesn’t automatically mean that he is NOT God.
My response:
So you mean “fully” does not mean fully. Can you show me one verse in the Bible that says Jesus is NOT Satan (Nauzbillah)? Would you repeat something like this in this case: If the Bible says Jesus is fully man it doesn’t automatically mean that he is NOT Satan (Nauzbillah).
Your comment:
HERE YOU ARE PROVING YOUR DECEPTION ONCE AGAIN. Based on English translation limitations you think to yourself that you proved a contradiction in Paul’s account of what happened when he had met Jesus first time.
Let me quote the same verses from the NASB translation.
“And the men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice, but seeing no one.” (Acts 9:7)
“And those who were with me BEHELD the light, to be sure, but did not UNDERSTAND the voice of the one who was speaking to me.” (Acts 22:9)
Where is the contradiction? Obviously in the mind that is spoilt by false belief system. Based on the above clarification ‘who is ridiculing the scripture?’ The persistent liar, but not Paul.
My response:
Let me quote again from your most selling and most famous and most translated version of Bible i.e. King James version.
Acts 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, HEARING A VOICE, BUT SEEING NO MAN.
Acts 22:9 And they that were with me SAW INDEED THE LIGHT, and were afraid; but they HEARD NOT THE VOICE of him that spake to me.
Now let me quote from NASB
Acts9:7 The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.
Acts 22:9 And those who were with me SAW the light, to be sure, but did not UNDERSTAND the voice of the One who was speaking to me.
click this link to verify:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+22&version=NASB
So, the first verse is almost same everywhere. But in the second verse (Acts 22:9), there is some big problem i.e. MANIPULATION BY YOU. Official version of NASB says “And those who were with me saw the light,” and you lied “And those who were with me BEHELD the light”. YOU CHANGED THE WORD “SAW” TO “BEHELD”. Why? because with the word “beheld” you can divert the attention to possibility of something other than “saw” as “to hold” or “retain” as well. See most of the “saw” can be used as “beheld” but not all “beheld” will be “saw”.
So, according to even NASB, word is “saw” only. So, it is only your deception (sorry for using “the word”), not mine as you accused in the beginning. Now regarding the second part of this verse (Acts 22:9), “did not hear the voice” is made as “did not understand the voice”. It can be used interchangeably but here also all the “did not hear the voice” can be “did not understand the voice”, but not the vice versa. This is not your problem so I don’t accuse you for this.
Now let’s have some Greek Gymnastic. Brother in both places i.e. for “hearing” of Acts 9:7 and for “understanding” or “hearing” of Acts 22:9, the root word used as -AKOUS-, which is related to hearing only. Do you remember word “Acoustic” in English derived from this greek -Akous-. Yes, it denotes only hearing if taken literally. These are the reasons probably, all the major translations whether King James version or Roman catholic or RSV, translated it as “did not hear the voice” only.
So, it is a lie on the part of Mr. Paul. And it was not my deception (I quoted the verse ) rather you are trying to deceive (you manipulated the verse). Please don’t catch me for using word deception or deceive but sorry I don’t get any other appropriate word for such act. This is the word you used for me for no fault of mine (rather your misunderstanding) and amazingly for the same matter but when seen properly it becomes obvious regarding who deserves this title.
Your further comments in numerals and my responses:
1. No matter how many times you write “I have proved” your writings themselves display the ISLAMIC LOGIC and foolish conclusions. …
My response: You are again trying to play Mr. X (remember?) and same, accusing Islam.
2. Your lie is so evident in your own comment, “Even with these minor, not so very good words, there is enough reason to say I was decent throughout if seen in the context.”
My response: All “not so good words” are not abuse but can be a truth as we saw above. Is it lie or your misunderstanding (can also be called as lack of understanding)?
3. According to your Islamic logic if the prophets of the Bible bring clarity on different doctrines and issues progressively in the Bible that is hard for you to digest. But if Muhammad says something and later changes it and then brings another revelation contradicting himself and former revelations you think that is not stupidity, deception or outrageous but Allha’s unchanging word!
My response: You are again trying to play Mr. X (remember?) and same, accusing Islam.
4. You think you are doing a favor by not using bad words for Jesus as I have been using (I think you mean the descriptions about Muhammad that I got from your hadiths). THIS IS ANOTHER DECEPTION OF YOURS! Why can’t you say anything bad about Jesus? Not because you are decent or willing to do a productive and meaningful dialogue as I suggested, but because Jesus is mentioned in your Quran as a prophet. SINCE PAUL IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE QURAN YOU THINK YOU CAN MAKE AN EXCEPTION TO HIM. Yet you portray yourself that you are very decent person for not saying anything bad about Jesus. Amazing hypocrisy suitable for your faith!
My response: If I don’t say anything bad about Jesus how come it becomes “deception”. Brother this is not deception, this is the teaching of the same Islam . Can you show me one verse in Gospel of Jesus (wordings of Jesus in his lifetime) where Paul is mentioned? Brother, your scholars say that Paul even didn’t meet Jesus. Did I manipulate any verse to present the true picture of Paul? Instead it is your Bible, sorry his Bible, which is contradicting him. And it is the words of Jesus which goes against him and set him perfectly in the description of false prophet. I gave you the proof for which you have no argument. What does it mean? Truth or hypocrisy? But sorry, I’ll not say, “Amazing hypocrisy suitable for your faith! “, why should I accuse all people of your faith for your sins.
Your comment:
My friend, please don’t mistake me when I wrote, ‘Arabic god.’ God Almighty is One and He is God of all.
My reponse:
But actually speaking it is we muslims who believe in the literal “God Almighty is One and He is God of all”. You have perversion in this belief. You believe “God Almighty is One in three and He is God of all Christians and all others will make it to hell because half of them (those came before Jesus) could not witness the suicide of God and remaining half (those came after Jesus) did not believe in this suicide of God.”
Your yet further comments in numerals and my responses:
You said,
You touched upon some important issues here. Let me try to focus on some of them as precisely as I can.
1. “Your lie on prophet Muhammad (pbuh) with rubbishes like mad man or crazy man”
I couldn’t help but feel sorry for you. I showed you clearly why I described Muhammad as mad or crazy man according to your own Muslim sources. But, as is often the case, you get hurt and throw the blame on me. …..
My response:
Yes this was your clear deception which I exposed. Again you are playing Mr. X. I showed you how this figure of speech is nothing but your nuisance.
2. …The so-called Allah’s book, the final revelation to Muslims, the perfect book, the Quran some how failed miserably to give the world the details of the so-called Muslims’ last prophet Muhammad. In order to find the true Muhammad or the true colors of Muhammad one needs to go to the earliest sources, but not to the latest stories or commentaries or glorified accounts of modern day Muslim apologists’ websites that are doctored to improve his image in this modern world. Some of the earliest sources of Islam are ‘Sira’ by ibn Ishaq (750AD) edited and abridged by ibn Hisham (830AD), ‘hadiths’ by Bukhari (850AD), Muslim etc., ‘Tariq’ and ‘Tafsir’ by Al-Tabari (900AD). If you choose to ignore the harsh facts about Muhammad’s true nature in the Muslim historians’ books because they are so repulsive then that’s not others’ problem, it is Islam’s problem, it is Muhammad’s problem and it is your problem! Your reaction to these harsh realities of your faith bears witness to the fact that you are narrow and closed to objective and honest research into your faith. You are under the illusion that the Quran is God’s word, but I am not. You discredit the worst history of Muhammad because it hurts you, but I don’t.
My response:
We are not against earliest sources or late sources we are against wrong sources. Liars like you were always there to accuse good peoples and prophets for their petty gains. And muslims did their work and filtered out the major lie from the sources through science of Hadith. I never said all these books were total lie yes the fabrication has been a part of them. Even authors of these books have accepted. I know many authentic hadiths having sound chain of truthful narrators present in these books. But they are not being totally filtered as the other authentic books. So, it is not me, Scholars of hadith who found out the lie through a meticulous and scientific examination,(which you seriously lack for your Bible and suffer from series of contradictions and rubbishes). So, we have thousands of authentic hadith proved by scholars to know the sunnah. Tradition of prophet Mohammad has been recorded meticulously which never happened for any single human being before and after him.
This is only in the case of tradition of Prophet i.e. biography of prophet, not in the holy book i.e. the Quran ; unlike your case where holy books has 4 different versions, included, of same story, sometimes with contradiction and thrown out 100s of other versions of Gospel from this book. Even though, they have no serious proof against them, because you seriously lack meticulous technique like studying the narrators etc. Brother, how come you talk about such issues. I respect your scholars and your belief and avoid quoting from them even though you never stopped me. Because I want to present the fact which you believe to be correct. There are many issues of Gospel missing in this present day Bible could be cleared from those sources, but it will affect the dogma of Christianity severely. That’s why your scholars avoid them. I respect them. But you want to quote from sources which has been proved to be insinuated (by the scholars) instead of authentic sources available. Isn’ it hypocrisy? Yes, it was expected, as you might lose many “bomb of lies” in this way. Losing is always painful. Isn’t it?
3. …Here you think satanic influences have happened to Muhammad only in certain situations, but those who read his biography and other early Islamic sources understand that it was most of the time, if not all the time. Again you think it has nothing to do with his prophethood. That’s your opinion. Later we will see how it matters a lot to honest researcher of Islam.
My response: Yes, only in certain situation as I proved to you. If you are truthful give me one quotation from AUTHENTIC SOURCES to support your view and get them corrected.
4….Yes all of a sudden if a human being is seeing the angels he will be shocked but would come back to normalcy with that angel’s comforting message if that angel was a genuine angel of God. ……
My response: yes this is what happened. After few days when he got the comforting message through angel i.e. Quran 93:1-11, and started getting the revelation regularly, he was relieved and never in his life had the same , as he had on the first few days. Read the proper sources to know the truth and get guided.
5….My friend, if someone says, ‘I had severe headache in a very noisy crowd’ then we won’t conclude that he was a mad person. However, if someone says, ‘I feel I am becoming mad or loosing my mind’ you got to take it seriously. If a person is ‘bewitched’ and as a result of it if he behaves abnormally then people around that person call him a crazy person even if a Muslim like you prefer to call him a prophet. In our city a young man fell in love with a high caste girl. When the family of the girl came to know about this affair they got enraged and with the help of a magician they managed to cast a spell on him. The young man became bewitched by an evil spirit and began to behave abnormally which made people to start calling him a madman. Whether it is for a short period or long period, whether it is a natural madness or forced madness still it is madness or craziness whether you like it or not.
My response:
Here you played the trick again. Let me expose your deception of messing up and mis-presenting. You quoted few sources (and even from non authentic source) related to circumstances in the beginning of revelation. It was in that particular situation he had such feeling (not under satanic influence which happened approximately 20 years later) and the word mad or crazy feeling for himself has not even been mentioned in any of the authentic sources. ( what You quoted is from HISTORY BOOK of Tabari (not a hadith book) which I already objected (having many fabrications inside). Tabari or Ibn Hisham did not write any hadith book (most of the hadith books have been studied and researched in detail because of the availability of chain of narrators, but it could not be done in history book or story book, even though they might have many authentic traditions mentioned inside because of lack of mention of chain of narrators in most of the cases). Yes, Tabari started writing a hadith book but could not complete it i.e. Tahdhib al- Athar. Now regarding your objection of such use of words as I told, let me repeat,
“If I say last month in a very noisy crowd (i.e. I meant in unusual and embarrassing condition) I had a severe headache or feeling as if I became mad, does it mean I am a mad or mad for even certain period.”
Don’t twist my words. Does it mean so or not? Obviously not.
Your story of bewitching has no correlation with this story. During episode of Satanic influence on prophet (years later), he never complained of being having such feeling of madness or headache, or shivering, as you misquoted, rather it was just forgetfulness in some personal matters that also for a very short period. You tried to mix up and deceive. Brother I will not allow you to lie and escape.
Don’t misquote this again.
6. “Few points regarding Quran: Give this book to any person (translated in his language) and give Bible to the same person (beware the person should be adult or chapters like Ezekial 23 should be removed before giving) and ask him which book looks as if it is written by human (with evident human touch in it ) and which book sounds like perfect guidance book in a very unique style (far from human touch).”
Well said, here we go. ………… AND YOU GAVE TWO STORIES OF YOUR FIELD OF EFFICIENCY (i.e. LIE) . …. Later addition in Caps are mine.
My response:
Surely you will say these stories are nothing but truth (common scene on Sakshi, or other missionary or apologetic websites). Isn’t it? I will ask forproof. Which you can’t? If there are really such persons please give them the link to this debate, inshallah many of their misconceptions will be cleared and if you are really truthful, give them my email id (from SAN if they allow, I would love it). I respect the regulations of SAN so I am not giving my any personal link. Inshallah, if they really exist and they get to know the Truth, they might gift your Bible back (of course they will not throw the Bible, as Islam doesn’t teach so). You quoted from your taste, now let me quote from taste from both books. Assuming brothers are adults. Below, I am quoting a chapter of Bible and A CHAPTER of Quran (both of them I have quoted before) dedicated to such brothers and sisters. Let’s see their reaction.
Bible – Book of Ezekial 23…………..does it look like story of X-graded book or God’s guidance book? No prize.
Quran- The Opening Book – Al- Fatiha 1…………. does it look like story of X-graded book or God’s guidance book? No prize.
Now I will give you a proof from a non muslim, intellectual, whose saying can’t be kicked off the way I kicked off
your rubbish stories.
Sir George Bernard Shaw:
His view regarding Bible-“ the most dangerous book (the bible) on earth, keep it under lock and key… ”
His view regarding Islam (of course after reading Quran and Hadith)- “I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him – the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity.” (Sir George Bernard Shaw in ‘The Genuine Islam,’ Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.)
Yes, it will be difficult for anybody to refute.
7. “I never attacked Bible or anybody. It is your bible which is contradicting and attacking you and your belief of Christianity, Jesus or Paul. …”
What a blatant lie! IT FITS YOUR FAITH. By the way, I am very happy to know that you love my comment and look forward to it. Let me assure you that I won’t disappoint you in this. Keep waiting…even if it is delayed sometimes.
My response: You came to your level again, started abusing my faith. I quoted your Bible without alteration. Is it a blatant lie? Yes, you are correct, this is what logic says about Bible.
Brother, you said you would not disappoint me. But, you did it. Why you promised (lied) when you can’t keep it. You escaped my major questions, challenges and comments (even from my last comment), instead you concentrated on twisting my words, abusing and quoting and bombarding with length of pages to hide your face. Inshallah, I will prove this also. I don’t blame anybody unless I prove it (unlike you). There are many things which you swiftly escaped from touching.
Here I am listing few of the topics which you escaped to answer from my last comment.
a. You tried to repeat the same old stuff i.e. Allah created many men for hell, only to be thrashed again.
b. I challenged your allegation to show me where I derided prophets. Your silence makes us believe you to be liar. ( please don’t point to this discussion on prophets in Bible, which took place after your allegation)
c. I exposed your yet another lie where you quoted a lie i.e. a hadith of Muslim drinks 3753. I gave readers link to verify your lie.
d. How Bible made David rapist and deceiver and Quran saved him by presenting the truth.
e. I asked regarding wisdom of story of Judah and his daughter in law, Tamar in Bible.
f. I exposed your lie regarding Zaid bin harithah that he was Zaid bin Harithah not Zaid bin Mohammad.
g. I exposed the truth of your greek language gymnastic on monogenes.
h. I exposed your mis-presentation regarding word “be disregarded” and “be forgotten” in Quran 20:126.
i. I challenged you to let me expose additions and deletions of verses even chapters from different version of Bible (not just choice of words by different translators.).
j. I even offered you to give the example of slow insinuation in your local translation of Bible (Malayalam).
k. You tried to repeat the same old stuff i.e. Hadith of Abu Burada regarding Jews and Christian making to hell, only to be thrashed again.
l. How the God of Bible was more dangerous than Government of Israel of present time in ruthless killing of innocents on some minor pretexts. Do you remember God killed 50, 070 men for seeing the ark of Lord in 1 Samuel 6:19.
m. Regarding your presentation of salvation and how, in it’s synopsis, it is similar to Modified Fais’ stupid story.
n. I showed like before what did Jesus mean salvation from his tongue (not that of Paul).
o. I exposed your Hebrew language gymnastic as well on – son of God.
p. I showed you another rubbish in Bible where your savior is calling you a dog. May be this verse inspired you to abuse the whole community of that person, for assumed mistake of his.
q. I corrected your correction, on how Jesus was human, not incarnated God with many limitations as other humans but not as Person without limitation.
This is an overview only. Don’t you think you disappointed me again? So, I assume you agree with me on all those issues. So please don’t be stubborn hypocrite by quoting all those again to fill pages. And I expect little decency from you, please do not to quote these things to me or any other innocent soul again.
8……My sincere advice to you is first try to understand what a fitting and logical response means. It does not mean Islamic way of reasoning! As long as you don’t understand this you will continue in your blissful ignorance.
My response:
Can you teach me please what is fitting and logical response? Is it something which I proved above as your deception or something which you escaped?
Now let me touch your second part:
I want the things to be clear instead of bombarding the words. So, all your explanation regarding these verses of Bible has two main points as a whole, worth explaining. You proved,
A. Death doesn’t mean Death rather growing here and it is not a scientific error.
B. Quran has a scientific error on death of earth.
Let’s see,
A. Death doesn’t mean Death rather growing here and it is not a scientific error:
You gave proof and inference:
“The word ‘death/die’ has been used in the Bible mainly to denote three types states, namely, Physical Death (Genesis 21:16; Exodus 19:12) where body, soul and spirit get separated and subsequently the body itself gets into disintegration; Spiritual Death (Genesis 2:17; Matthew 8:22; Ephesians 2:1) where human spirit gets separated from God’s spirit and loses the fellowship with God; Eternal Death (Revelations 20:14) where human being is eternally separated from God’s presence. In all these the basic meaning is ‘separation’ or ‘disintegration’ or ‘losing original condition.’ The word ‘death’ is also used metaphorically in the Bible (2 Corinthians 4:11). ”
….The way it is understood with the help of the Biblical exegesis: “I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and DIES [gets separated/disintegrates/looses its original condition], it remains only a single seed. But if it DIES [disintegrates], it produces many seeds.”
My response:
I agree with you. In short and simple language word death or dead can be used as
a) Figure of speech, (Matthew 8:22; Ephesians 2:1; 2 Corinthians 4:11, ? Genesis 2:17)
b) Literal meaning of death. (Genesis 21:16; Exodus 19:12; Revelations 20:14)
That’s what I said that when in Bible, it is said about Jesus’ death it was just a figure of speech (even though I gave proof). But you didn’t accept but now to save your skin you are coming with same logic. OK, I never denied that.
I even agree with you that it is basically separation ( losing it’s original condition) / disintegration. Did you understand with my way of writing the same thing? I just changed little, with the reference to verses above. I have no problem in saying “separation” as “losing it’s original condition”, but I have problem in assuming “separation ” as “growing or multiplying”.
Read it repeatedly until you get my point. So, none of the verse in Bible gives this meaning of death i.e. growing or multiplication. Can you give me one.
Another point, When you see the context, which I gave you, it is related to death (literal i.e. type b) only. Let me give the context again.
See the verses to follow
“25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.”
This is about mentally preparing them for Jihad i.e. for struggle and fight against the enemies. Then, later he prepared them physically for Jihad as well.
Luke 22: 33And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. 34And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me. 35And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. 38And they said, Lord, behold, here [are] two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
So, this was all about type b death i.e. literal death. So, giving this parable is really a scientific mistake in Bible. If he had just said “dead seed can be revived with water”, it could be acceptable, as dead can mean metaphorically as dormant (type b as we saw above) and it could be revived with water to grow, but saying that “But if it DIES, it produces many seeds.” , it leaves no option except to understand that if it dies (literal death as from “context” and impossibility of meaning as “growing” in the form of losing it’s original condition) means it seizes to be alive (type b) and amazingly, then it multiplies and grows.
B. Quran has a scientific error on death of earth:
You gave proof and inference:
Quran 16: 65. And Allâh sends down water (rain) from the sky, then He revives the earth therewith after its death. Verily, in this is a sign (clear proof) for people who listen (obey Allâh).
M Comforter’s definition of ‘death’ proves beyond any shadow of doubt that the Quran is clearly wrong here because it contains a glaring scientific blunder! According to the Quran before rains come down (everything would be gray and dry during summer) the earth is DEAD, no life! Both scientifically and commonsensically it is undisputable that even the dry grass or roots or the seeds that lay dormant on the ground until rain causes them to sprout have life! But the supposedly all knowing Quranic Allah failed to know this simple truth and calls the earth DEAD and Muslims believe that.
My response:
I think if you read the explanation above, it does not need any further explanation and it is self explaining.
Let me quote few more similar verses in Quran
Quran 35:27 SEE YOU NOT that Allâh sends down water (rain) from the sky, and We produce therewith fruits of varying colours,……
Quran 43 :11 And Who sends down water (rain) from the sky in due measure. Then We REVIVE a dead land therewith, and even so you will be brought forth (from the dead),
In the last verse word in Arabic for revive is –ansharna- which does mean revive only not the literal giving life to death, as in Quran 16:65, where also it means revive but the word there is –ahya- which is more commonly is used for giving life to death, and is used here metaphorically as a figure of speech (type a). So, use of –ansharna- in other place does strengthen the support of it’s (revive) metaphorical role here.
Another point here, when this verse is quoted, God is reminding us that “it is a sign” for us, and in other place (Quran 35:27), God wants to express to us that He wanted to “show us” his sign that dead (visibly; of course then only it could be shown) earth becomes alive. God started here with phrase “See you not”, to let us use our sense of vision to notice this cycle of life and death with water. Of course this type of seeing denotes to observing with eye not through lab. techniques (to verify their scientific death and life). So, the verse itself says that it is just a figure of speech (i.e. “type a” death as mentioned above)
Now regarding your comment on – Makr-
You wrote (starting with numerals) followed by my response:
Fantastic! Your unsuccessful translation gymnastics can’t fool honest readers. Here are the reasons why…
1. The word ‘makr’ (m-k-r) in Arabic means according to Arabic Dictionary Al-Mawrid: to deceive, delude, cheat, double-cross, dupe, and cunning, craftiness, slyness, wiliness, double-dealing, deception, deceit, artifice, and guile.
My response:
I think you did not read my comment. I already told it means planning but usually in negative sense. I’m pasting it here again.
“Yes, the word planner (makr-) is usually used in NEGATIVE sense. But, it is written about bad people’s planning (of course in bad way) to damage good people or prophet of God. And, God is a best of planner (of course badly for bad peoples) to dissolve their strategy and save his good people. ”
2. In the same verses and in the same given contexts the same Arabic word ‘m-k-r’ (makr) has been employed to refer to the unbelievers/hypocrites as well as Allah (Sura 3:54; 8:30) with a clear comparative relationship. But faithful Muslims wanting to save the Quranic Allah from unpleasant qualities translated the same word ‘m-k-r’ in two different ways in the same verse, Sura 3:54–“And they (disbelievers) PLOTTED/MAKR [to kill Iesa (Jesus)], and Allah PLANNED/MAKR too. And Allah is the Best of the PLANNERS/MAKR” (translation by Al-Hilali & Khan). Here Muslim apologists and translators display their deception in order to hide Quranic Allah’s deception. It’s a very good service to the Arabic god from his faithful followers.
My response:
Let’s see one example: There is a female. She has some costly jewelry. She hid them in her kitchen in the bucket amongst the vegetable to DECEIVE thieves. In the night, as expected a thief managed to DECEIVE peoples and entered her house and opened the locker (probably with master key), only to find some artificial jewelry, which he took thinking it to be original (deceived).
Here also both of them deceived, irrespective of the word “deceive”, if it was written “planning”, it could not mean anything different. Yes, deception on the part of that female cannot be compared with deception of thief. Because, even word like deception, when used for good people (with good motive), it is not the same as for the bad people (with bad motive). You re-read it to understand it. Even though she deceived the thief in this act, still it will not be fair to call her better deceiver rather she should be called as better schemer.
3. You boasted, “Nowhere in Quran, God has written He is THE BEST OF DECEIVER.” But the fact is it is right there in the Quran for the whole world to see except Muslims. If you choose to close your eyes to that fact you may, but the readers don’t. The word ‘makr’ (m-k-r) that is in 3:54 is clearly deceiving. Just because the pious Muslim translators translated it deceitfully it doesn’t change the fact. (Readers, please check the meaning of this word [LL, V7, p: 256] as ‘to practice deceit’ for yourself at: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/14_MIIM.htm). By the way, in the next section unwittingly you wrote, ““ makr-” (planner or schemer or plotter) or “khada-” (deceive or cheat). So even if you use the word ‘schemer’ for ‘makr’ it still proves the same thing. ‘Makr’ does not mean a planner like an Engineer planning in a positive sense. If you are ok with schemer, the meaning of schemer is the one who makes dishonest or bad plans. That’s what ‘deceiver’ does! Can’t you see the same problem haunting you even with ‘schemer’? So the Quran does unmistakably say that Allah is the best of DECEIVER/SCHEMER! (Sura 3:54)
My response:
My challenge remains the same. “Nowhere in Quran, God has written He is THE BEST OF DECEIVER.”
Can you show me one standard translation in the whole world where it is written so? I did not say, “you say so”. You can say anything because you have two big problems i.e. you are ignorant to Arabic along with other things and you are a big manipulator as we have seen above. I said, “it is not written in Quran”, so it is not written in Quran anywhere. O.K.
Now regarding your “neem hakim khatre jaan”( i.e. half knowledge is a dangerous thing). Alhamdulillah, we have Arabic original to verify (plus arabic language is still a live language in a big part of world ). It is wonderful language with many beautiful aspects in it. Here, same root words can be used to derive many words and sometimes even opposite meaning without getting any negative part to it. It is very difficult for translator to translate it in other languages. Here, also all the translators are unanimous in their decision to translate them to “the best of planner”. Let us see one example.
In Arabic, wound or lesion is called as “jarah”. And the person who removes them i.e. a surgeon is called as Al-Jaraha.
If you are the translator, you will translate Al-Jaraha as the best of the wound, ( like al-makrin and –makr as in Quran 3:54), instead of surgeon (the healer of the wound by operating it out). You must have got the point. If problem, re-read it.
I hope you will not repeat this in future. May God guide you.
4. The Arabic word ‘m-k-r’ (makr) means deception and that’s exactly what Allah did according to the Quran in Sura 4:157:
“And because of their saying (in boast), “We killed Messiah ‘Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah,”-but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of ‘Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. ‘Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]”
My response:
I already explained you in past. Read Page 2 comment 19 point 7. Still you are playing Mr. X (remember?)
Let me paste here again for our busy readers.
“If God doesn’t want to make a thing evident to us, it is His wish, it is not cheating. If my wife has a beautiful diamond jewelry and she doesn’t show to peoples, is it cheating? Or, if she goes to public gathering, wearing similar jewelry but of ordinary crystal, is she cheating? It is her wish. If God didn’t want Jesus to be “evidently not crucified”, it is up to Him. We don’t think it to be cheating, rather God’s wish. Why didn’t your God appear to everybody after getting resurrected? Why was he appearing to few peoples here and there? Was this resurrected God fearing his death again? or in your language, he was cheating people? ”
5. A Muslim enquirer raised some important questions on a Muslim blog regarding Allah’s deception. According to this Muslim enquirer the first Caliph reportedly said, “Abu Bakr (ra) said, I would not feel safe from the plotting (makr) of Allah even if I put my foot in Jannah.” ………
My response:
I have already explained this word above. If you have further questions, quote them grom authentic sources, inshallah I will correct them.
Your further comments (in numerals) and my response:
1. Before issuing a challenge you better think through it first! The Quran doesn’t use the words ‘makr’ and ‘khada’ in reference to good people. If it had been using them in reference to good people then there seems to be far less problem to have these words associated with Allah. Since they are not used for good people I am showing you how foolishly the Quran has used these words in reference to bad people as well as Allah implying some similarities between them.
…..
My response:
If I say, you are a deceiver, manipulator or liar, you say I am abusing. But I am giving proof and you are repeatedly doing it. This is yet instance of your lie and fabrication.
I said in comment 49
“I challenge you to quote one verse from Quran where GOD used the word “ makr-” (planner or schemer or plotter) or “khada-” (deceive or cheat), for good peoples.”
READERS CAN CHECK IT.
I did not say which you wrote above, “The QURAN doesn’t use the words ‘makr’ and ‘khada’ in reference to good people.”
Can reader see his manipulation. Read twice. It is intelligently done. I said where in Quran GOD used the word -makr for good people, I did not say where QURAN uses word -makr for good people. Yes, this makes the point upside down.
Let me explain his trick. Suppose I said, there was a truthful man (A) who said about certain liar that he was a liar. And Mr. Christian Adil came and said Mr. comforter said man (A) is a liar. (something similar but in positive frame to make it simple).
2. ….. I agree that the people involved in criminal gangs are ‘deceivers (makr and khada),’ illegals , work for themselves and thereby they do things that characterize them. Whereas the police are recruited, trained and paid to work with the authority of the state to stand for the truth and justice. However, both the groups are fallen into sin and are therefore imperfect. Sometime ago I WAS CHEATED BY SOME POLICE IN TWO DIFFERENT OCCASIONS in two different Muslim dominated countries in Asia! I am sure even in India this can be true. WHETHER IT IS A POLICE OR A CRIMINAL IF HE LIES IT IS LYING, IF HE CHEATS IT IS CHEATING, IF HE DECEIVES IT IS DECEIVING. Since both groups are imperfect and have lots of limitations in dealing with situation like what you described in your example we understand on a pragmatic level that it’s alright to some extent. But if the same patrolling police inspector were endowed with ‘all-power,’ ‘all-wisdom,’ ‘all-presence,’ ‘all-perfect’ qualities and yet resorts to do the same exact thing what you described then there will be a big problem. No normal person would accept the action of that police inspector because if he were an all-perfect and all-powerful being he could find a solution to deal with that situation without resorting to the same ‘deception’ (makr) the criminal gang was employing. God is the perfect, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-present being. He doesn’t stoop down to the level of criminal gang in order to deal with them. If evil people plot or use deception against God then the Almighty God is able to expose that and thwart it and punish them, but does not necessarily have to resort to a similar thing that of the evil people are accused of i.e. deception………
My response:
This is another instance of your manipulation. Let me clear your facts. Same deed done by two peoples does not mean the same. As we saw above, the female deceived the thief by hiding her jewelry. And, the thief deceived people and stolen her jewelry. Are they both sinners? Certain negative planning against bad peoples need not be bad, it may be to support the truth. Something similar to calling you abusive, by using the word abuse doesn’t make me abusive, but it is only a presentation of truth. You are giving wrong example related to yourself. You said policemen cheated you of money. Probably you assumed yourself as bad man to expose their act (as per my quotation, assuming policemen as good men). Still it can’t be justified. SUPPOSE (demand of the character) you were a bad man (still I don’t believe it in totality, may be you might have many other good qualities and my faith also says so, there is never late in Islam) and stole some jewelry from shop and hid inside your undergarments. And good policeman suspected and he kept you busy in certain talk and during the gesture deceived you and palpated the part where you kept them and reveals the hidden item, then is it deception? I think it should be clear to you now. Trick, you played here in short is that you allowed good peoples to do bad planning and action even against bad people. But what Quran and I (a follower of Quran) allowed Good peoples to do bad planning (the planning which the criminal may not like) and bad action against bad peoples to support the truth ( e.g. planning and catching criminal and preventing him from creating nuisance).
Another point, this is only a parable I did not say God did the same. Even in these cases both the deceiving, is not the same. The bad man’s deception was stealing and the policemen’s deception was exposing him. Similarly, my God’s deception to bad people can be anything like if criminals wanted to kill a prophet and planned (-makr) God too planned (-makr) and revealed this secret to his prophet and saved him or brought him to Himself while others could not notice it. Even though criminals would not have liked this planning of God ( that is why -mkr), still it was a good act.
3. .Later you went to the extent of saying, “Yes, I want my God to be bad against such enemy of muslims or bad peoples. Isn’t it the same Jesus wanted, when he preached and people did not follow him after all his effort (according to you).”
This kind of misplaced fanatic belief in a false deity cannot make that deity a true deity. By the way, this is not what Jesus wanted as you had understood it.
My response:
Let me quote again,
Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.
When I asked, you told they were bad peoples and even after all the effort of Jesus they did not accept the truth, that is why Jesus did this. Isn’t it? How come God the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-wisdom all-perfect play such trick (real -makr) to push them to hell. Does the savior behave like this?
Is it my fanatic belief or rubbish of your book and your deity (the third one)? Can you tell me, what Jesus was doing here? I could not understand because when I read “lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.”, I understand “lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.”
4. You used in an effort to justify the Quranic Allah’s deception. Let me give the Biblical quotes and Quranic quotes so that the readers themselves can make out the meaning rather than you or I giving the meaning…
BIBLICAL QUOTES: …………….many,
QURANIC QUOTES:…………….. many ACCORDING TO YOUR TASTE.
My response:
By the way where is the explanation of this verse i.e. Let me also give the Biblical quotes and Quranic quotes, to get the true picture of respective holy books.
BIBLICAL QUOTES:
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and THE HOUSES RIFLED, and THE WOMEN RAVISHED (RAPED)…….
1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; BUT SLAY BOTH MAN AND WOMAN, INFANT AND SUCKLING, OX AND SHEEP, CAMEL AND ASS.
Numbers31: 17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Joshua 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that [was] in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.
What is this? Rape and Genocide, even of animals.
Jeremiah 20:7 O LORD, THOU HAST DECEIVED ME, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE:
God the literal –makr. Isn’t it? May be these verses preconditioned you wrongly, about concept of God in Islam.
2 Corinthians 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
Paul the literal –makr.
1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.
What a suggestion of Paul!
Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; MEN WITH MEN WORKING THAT WHICH IS UNSEEMLY, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
May be, this verse inspired Gays of America .
See the wholesome sex, below
2Samuel11:4 -25 -David rapes Bath-sheba and wickedly caused the death of Uriah, the husband of Bath-sheba.
2Samuel 12:12 -God promised to revenge for this sin by another illegal sex.
2Samuel 16:22 – So, his son Absalom did it to his mother (father’s concubine) in front of all Israel. Promise was fulfilled.
2 Samuel13:11-14 – Absalom didn’t leave even his sister.
If I quote only, verses on such illegal sex like incest, rape or whore dome in Bible, it can constitute a big book in itself.
If it titillates you, just read yourself few of the examples below:
Ezekiel 23; GENESIS 19:33-35; GENESIS 35:22; GENESIS 38: 15-18; LEVITICUS 18:8-18. 20:11-14 and 17-21;
etc.
Regarding nakedness of prophets in bible, I have dealt in brief in last few comments.
Now, You see what the savior of humanity says:
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. 34THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO SEND PEACE ON EARTH: I CAME NOT TO SEND PEACE, BUT A SWORD. 35For I am COME TO SET A MAN AT VARIANCE against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Luke 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and HATE not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
On and on……..
QURANIC QUOTES:
Quran 2:256 “Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust worthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. ”
Quran 10:99 “If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. WOULD YOU THEN COMPEL THE PEOPLE SO TO HAVE THEM BELIEVE?”
[Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 9.49 Narrated by Abdullah bin Amr. The Prophet said, Whoever killed a Non-Muslim who had become our ally shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of forty years (of traveling).]
Quran 85:14 And He (Allah) is Oft-Forgiving, full of love.
Quran 1:3 (Allah) The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Quran 6:120 Leave (O mankind, all kinds of) sin, open and secret. Verily, those who commit sin will get due recompense for that which they used to commit.
Quran 7:199 Show forgiveness, enjoin what is good, and turn away from the foolish (i.e. don’t punish them).
Quran 5:90 O you who believe! Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, AlAnsâb , and AlAzlâm (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of Shaitân’s (Satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful.
Quran 4:29 O you who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves unjustly except it be a trade amongst you, by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allâh is Most Merciful to you.
Quran 16:105 It is only those who believe not in the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, who fabricate falsehood, and it is they who are liars.
Quran 4:31 If you avoid the great sins which you are forbidden to do, We shall remit from you your (small) sins, and admit you to a Noble Entrance (i.e. Paradise).
Quran 3:199 And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in Allâh and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allâh. They do not sell the Verses of Allâh for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, Allâh is Swift in account.
Quran 5 :69 Surely, those
Dear M Comforter,
You wrote:
“You believe, as you said, the way of salvation according to law, “There are two ways of salvation (forgiveness of sins and admission into heaven) according to the law.
(1) If the law, particularly the moral part, is observed perfectly 100% then a person can attain salvation. If the whole law is fulfilled but one command is broken then it is unacceptable before the holy God. By this standard no human being can attain salvation.
(2) Salvation is given to those who come to God by having faith in His substitution/atonement provision.”
So, according to first point we know nobody can be 100% perfect. So, only way of salvation, according to law remains, is that everyone has to believe, “God killed his son, sorry, God committed suicide to atone us from our sins”. What about those follower of law before Jesus who never had such belief and those before law? Surely all will make it to hell. Isn’t it? Don’t you think it is little too barbaric on the part of God of New Testament than the God of Old Testament who killed 50,070 men for a mere crime of seeing the ark of God. 1 Samuel 6:19 And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, BECAUSE THEY HAD LOOKED INTO THE ARK OF THE LORD, even HE SMOTE OF THE PEOPLE FIFTY THOUSAND AND THREESCORE AND TEN MEN: and the people lamented, because THE LORD HAD SMITTEN [MANY] OF THE PEOPLE WITH A GREAT SLAUGHTER.”
My responses:
1. Above you wrote something because you as a typical Muslim needs to write something, whether it makes any sense or not. Never mind! The only meaningful question in your above comment is ‘What about those followers of law before Jesus?’ Let me try to help you here, if you can be helped…
People who believed in God’s existence, feared God’s justice and trusted in God’s provision of salvation without trusting their own good/religious deeds were justified and made righteous and were granted salvation. In short they ‘lived by true faith and died in true faith.’ They too were saved as those who are being saved now—“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). ‘Salvation’ we now receive by faith in what God HAS already done through His eternal Word Jesus Christ, whereas those prior to Christ received it by the same faith in what God WOULD do in His love and justice although they had not known exactly what that could be and how God would accomplish that.
2. Killing 50,070 people who looked into the Ark of the LORD is not at all barbaric for God because that’s presumptuous on their part. But creating billions of people and Jinns in order to throw them into hell and in the process using the best deception is really barbaric, heinous and sadistic on the part of Quranic Allah. Don’t believe such a deity. Because it doesn’t exist.
You wrote:
“By the way brother, did Jesus say that your salvation is on the belief of my death? I challenge you to show one verse where Jesus in his life said so. How the God (?Jesus)as a prophet forgot the most important thing of his mission to teach the people of revised way of salvation. Isn’t it injustice and blaming Jesus of neglectful of his duty? Why Paul had to tell all these and that also in contradicting way to Jesus.”
My responses:
1. My friend, why you people (Islamic apologists) persist in super hypocrisy? This same website has articles that expose your hypocrisy time and again, but you are not ashamed of that. For instance, you people think that Jesus is the Messiah. Please show us in your so-called Allah’s word the Quran where did Jesus himself said, ‘I am the Messiah’? If Jesus himself did not claim that why do you believe that Jesus is the Messiah? Why did Quranic Allah forget to record Jesus’ claim for that?
2. Why did Q Allah forget to say what sin David committed or why did David ask forgiveness? Does Q Allah developed forgetfulness lately? Why did some Bukhari or Tabari have to say about that instead of Q Allah?
3. For you people (Muslims) ‘Shahada’ is the main pillar of Islam. Isn’t it? If it is so important, why did Q Allah forget to mention the complete ‘Shahada’ in one place in his so-called final revelation the Quran? Why do Muslims have to depend on hadiths to get to that? I challenge you to show one verse in the Quran that contains the complete ‘Shahada’ of Islam. If you cannot show that that itself would confirm to the readers beyond any shadow of doubt that the Quran is imperfect and dependant on stupid stories of Islam.
4. Five times ‘namaz’ is another important pillar in Islam. Don’t you think so? If so, why did Q Allah forget to mention about those five prescribed times of namaz and the way they should be offered in his final book? Was it because he doubted in the finality of his final book and expecting another book to explain that?
5. You have such a difficulty with apostle Paul who converted from Judaism to Christianity who followed the principle “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good” (Romans 12:21) and the scripture God gave us through him. However, you don’t have any problem to buy what Muhammad the pagan Arab allegedly brought from Allah who followed the principle “Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikun wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.” (Sura 9:5). This shows the sickness of your soul.
6. I’ll quote some more, if need be there, to expose your Islamic hypocrisy, Lord willing, next time. If you want answers to your question first deal with your own hypocritical standard. I hope readers will get a perfect picture of Islamic hypocrisy as you dance around these questions now.
You wrote:
“Another gymnastic, this time with Hebrew language. Whole New Testament is in Greek, the original Hebrew is not even known. How come you say the word in Hebrew was ‘son of’, because actual word is not even traceable? Suppose for argument sake I agree with you that in Hebrew language “son of God” means “in the order of God”. Then there are many others also “in order of God” (many from the Old Testament as well, which is there in Hebrew itself).”
My response:
Thanks for displaying your rationality here again. The Hebrew words for ‘Son’ or ‘son of’ have been used in the Old Testament ‘literally’ as well as ‘metaphorically.’ A careful reader, unlike you, would look into the context of the words and the way they were used to decipher their intended meaning. The careful reader would also use his rationality (not Islamic logic) and thereby would not apply one of the meanings of a word or phrase to every time it appears in the Bible. You may protest that saying that’s what Muslims do. Even then, be advised, others don’t do that!
By the way, Jesus is ‘The Son of God’ not ‘a son of God.’ I know you will find it hard to see any difference, right? Just leave it. Readers can understand this.
You wrote:
“Jesus was fully human and fully God:
Did Jesus inform you? Where is it written in Bible that Jesus was fully human and fully God? Yes, Jesus was fully human like us. Even your Bible says so, See Hebrews 2: 17 Therefore he had to be MADE LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN EVERY RESPECT, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people. Can’t you see it is written “in every respect” he was made Human. So he can’t be God because then he would not be in every respect like human and another point, he was made human (created being). And we know he got birth from Mary’s womb. Can’t you read? Truly speaking you read something but understand something else.”
My responses:
1. Muslims think and boast that Islam is the true and final religion. Did Quranic Allah inform that to Muslims and you in private through some ‘terrifying spirit encounter’? Where is it written in the Quran that “Islam is the true and final religion”?
2. Let me repost what I have already said above; You wrote that Lord Jesus Christ is only man but not God according to the Bible. Please don’t read the Bible as you read Muhammad’s poems. Can you show me one verse in the Bible that says Jesus is NOT God? Again please don’t use Islamic logic to prove your point. The Bible does say that Jesus is man. If the Bible says Jesus is fully man it doesn’t automatically mean that he is NOT God. For your sake let me give you a simple example here although I doubt if it gets into your head. If I show you a glass full of water and you call it a glass of water that’s correct. But that does not automatically exclude other possible invisible dissolved elements in the glass such as sugar or salt along with the water. Humanity and deity are not mutually exclusive natures in Jesus Christ.
You wrote:
“You said, “I don’t want to repeat my explanations again and again. This is mainly because my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ has warned me in the Bible, “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces” (Matthew 7:6). At some point I need to follow this Jesus’ command.” My response: But brother you disobeyed your savior again at this point and started repeating same old explanation (forgetting my reply for them). By the way, according to your Bible not only me, even you, rather all non-jews (gentiles) are dogs. Matthew 15:24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and TO CAST [IT] TO DOGS. So, according to Jesus, he was meant for lost sheep of Israel (jews) only, and all others were dogs. Amazing savior of humanity with such concept within him! I don’t think a prophet of God that also of the status of Jesus pbuh can use such language. This is another rubbish in your book defaming my beloved prophet Jesus (pbuh).”
My responses:
“Do not give what is holy to dogs (Greek: kuon), and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces” (Matthew 7:6)
1. My friend, I feel really sorry for you! I know it hurts, doesn’t it? You don’t accept or understand what Jesus said in the above verse. That proves what Jesus said is true in your case.
2. If the Bible records how Jesus described people like you, that is offensive to you naturally and you even question how saviour of humanity can be with such concept within him! Ask me I’ll explain to you, but don’t jump to conclusions that are typical of Islamic reasoning of which readers are tired.
3. What about Muhammad saying something along the same lines? “Evil is the likeness of the people who have cried lies to God’s signs. God guides never the people of the evildoers. The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolaters shall be in the Fire of Gehenna, therein dwelling forever; THOSE ARE THE WORST OF CREATURES (Quran 98:6-7).” Or “And recite to them the tiding of him to whom We gave Our signs, but he cast them off; and Satan followed after him, and he became one of the perverts. And had We willed, We would have raised him up thereby; but he inclined towards the earth and followed his lust. SO THE LIKENESS OF HIM IS AS THE LIKENESS OF A DOG; if thou attackest it it lolls its tongue out, or if thou leavest it, it lolls its tongue out. That is that people’s likeness who cried lies to Our signs. So relate the story; haply they will reflect. An evil likeness is the likeness of the people who cried lies to Our signs, and themselves were wronging.” (Quran 7:175-177). Readers, please see M Comforter’s hypocrisy and double standard!
4. Here is the Biblical account:
“And Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon (Gentiles area). And behold, a Canaanite woman came out from that region, and began to cry out saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon possessed.” But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came to Him and kept asking Him, saying, “Send her away, for she is shouting out after us.” But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel!’ But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’ And He answered and said, ‘It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs (Greek: kunarion—a little dog or puppy).” But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; be it done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.” (Matthew 15:21-28)
Points to remember…
a. In the above context Jesus was not in Israel, but in Gentiles place called Tyre and Sidon.
b. A Canaanite woman came to Jesus begging him to heal her daughter
c. Jesus didn’t answer her a word
d. She kept shouting for help
e. Disciples complained about her to Jesus asking him to do something to her
f. Jesus answered his disciples saying he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
g. When the woman persisted in her request Jesus used a local proverb, “it is not proper to take the children’s bread and throw it to the puppies (dog’s children)”
h. The woman reacted to Jesus’ proverb ‘humbly,’ ‘wisely’ and with ‘faith’
i. Jesus responded to her wise and humble faith with full helping hand and performed the miracle of healing to her daughter
j. Jesus neither said ‘O woman, you are a dog’ nor ‘all Gentiles are dogs’
5. For example, if a begging woman comes to me in an Indian village context and begs me for something desperately (say, for some money), which I usually give to my needy relatives or friends or acquaintances, and I happen to respond to her by quoting a local proverb, “It is not proper to take children’s bananas and give them to monkeys children,” does that mean/imply the rest of the people in the world are equated to the monkey’s children in my description? Is that how Muslims understand this? If so that is purely Islamic rationality problem. Later, if the woman persists in begging and says, ‘Sir, even monkeys children eat the bananas that are unused and thrown away,’ I would stop at her and after appreciating (at least in my heart) her faith in my alms I would give her the money she expects from me.
In the above hypothetical situation I use a proverb in order only to test her temperament and faith, but not to degrade her at all. If I were really intending to degrade her I would not even talk to her or I would simply say, ‘I don’t give to monkeys!’ Rather I took time and effort to test her temperament and faith to help her in the end. Obviously I would do that with respect and caution especially if I were to say that in her geographical region as a visitor.
But people like you would take the above incident completely in wrong and negative sense. “For corrupt minds everything is corrupt!” That’s your problem. I can’t help!
6. As far as Jesus is concerned, he has used the saying, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dog’s children” with a purpose that results in the woman’s benefit.
a. Jesus was not necessarily degrading the Canaanite woman while talking to her. If that were the case He would not even have appreciated her faith and helped her daughter in the end. This is not the only time Jesus was dealing with Gentiles (Matthew 8:5-10; Luke 17:11-16; Luke 22:47-53; John 4:7-30). He preached them the gospel and helped them with His healing power. In fact, according to the Bible the Gentiles will hope in Jesus’ name (Matthew 12:21). Had he regarded them as ‘dogs’ (Greek: kuon), either He would have said to them, ‘you are dogs,’ or refused to help them even after seeing faith in them. Instead, when Gentiles asked his help Jesus made sure in one way or the other that those Gentile recipients had enough faith to receive help from Him. Even in the Canaanite woman’s case also He did the same thing.
b. My friend M Comforter, how long you continue to invent lies against the Bible and prophets of God? As a part of your lies you wrote, “So, according to Jesus, he was meant for lost sheep of Israel (jews) only, and all others were dogs.” Truth is so elusive to your mind because you can’t see the difference between ‘sent’ and ‘meant.’ May the Lord deal with you in a way that opens your eyes and causes you to repent of these lies. This shows your reasoning ability and wicked intention to malign God’s word and prophets.
6. That’s why Jesus our beloved Savior instructed, “Do not give what is holy to dogs (Greek: Kuon), and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces” (Matthew 7:6).
You wrote:
“So, according to you, in brief & simple straight forward language Salvation is:
We are sinful because our first parent did certain sin and also because we are involved in many sinful deeds by not obeying the commandments of God. So, in short we are bad peoples. God wanted to forgive us, so God sent his son to teach us the commandments but still we are bad, so God had no other way but to atone (gruesome penalty) somebody for our sins and for that who could be better than God’s own son or in the language of Hebrew, God himself. And God did the suicide to save us.”
My response:
“Do not give what is holy to dogs (Greek: kuon), and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces” (Matthew 7:6). “For whoever has, to him shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; And you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive. For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they scarcely hear. And they have closed their eyes lest they should see with t heir eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with t heir heart and return, and I should heal them’(Matthew 13:12-15)”
You wrote:
“I think you need a lesson on use of infinity in mathematics and physics. Have you heard about “black hole”? Details you can take from this site and other referenced site which has also given certain religious concept related to that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity”
My response:
My friend, what else can I expect from you? Please, before answering first try to understand what is the question. I asked you to show me the existence of one ‘actual physical infinite being.’ You could not even understand the difference between ‘an actual infinity’ and ‘a potential infinity’ and that’s why you came up with a ‘black hole’ answer! Read the same article and also the linked articles about ‘actual infinity’ and ‘potential infinity.’ There can be innumerable ‘potential infinite beings’ in the creation, but none ‘actual physical infinite being.’ If you don’t understand this just leave it instead of wasting my time and readers’. This is for sure way beyond Islamic reasoning!
You wrote:
“Your correction and my response:
First correction- Jesus is not “a God” : My response: Certainly, he was not “a God” rather he was “a prophet” (sent from god to us ). Second correction—Jesus is ‘incarnated God.’ He is both fully human being and fully God. Not just one of these two, but both. Yes, as man Jesus had many limitations. But as God has no limitations; My response: Did Jesus say he was incarnated god or forgot this also? Where in bible it is written he was fully human and fully god, contrary to it, it is written that, he was like human in every respect (it is not said except that he is god also, see Hebrews 2:17). In every walk of life, Jesus had many limitations never found to be without limitation. From where, comes the question of Jesus without limitation?”
My response:
I wished I had been dialoguing with someone who knows the difference between ‘a god’ and ‘God.’ Since you raised your hypocritical question again here I am just pasting my answer that I have already given above…
You wrote that Lord Jesus Christ is only man but not God according to the Bible. Please don’t read the Bible as you read Muhammad’s poems. Can you show me one verse in the Bible that says Jesus is NOT God? Again please don’t use Islamic logic to prove your point. The Bible does say that Jesus is man. If the Bible says Jesus is fully man it doesn’t automatically mean that he is NOT God. For your sake let me give you a simple example here. If I show you a glass full of water and you call it a glass of water that’s correct. But that does not automatically exclude other possible invisible dissolved elements in the glass such as sugar or salt along with the water. Humanity and deity are not mutually exclusive natures in Jesus Christ.
You wrote:
“Matthew 5:48 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as YOUR FATHER which is in heaven is perfect. See Jesus is calling God as our father also. John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but THE WILL OF THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME. Here, Jesus is clear that he is one who submits his will to God (Muslim) and also he was just a sent man (prophet) from God. Why did he not say, that it is he who can do everything and he was God only in incarnated form? Wanted to fool people or probably he was fearing Jews? Brother I am sorry if my words hurt you or any Christian brother. I had to give the logical reply with the proof.”
My response:
What shall I say even after explaining to you several times that Jesus is ‘God incarnate’ i.e. He is having both natures (divine and human) that’s why you see both qualities in Him, yet that doesn’t get into your brain and you keep asking the similar questions such as, why did Jesus eat food, why did Jesus slept, why did Jesus pray to Father, how did Jesus die so and so forth again and again? You know what, I am getting hurt not by your words, but by your ability to understand! As a typical Muslim you call left right and right left, true false and false true. That’s why you understand God’s salvation in Christ as ‘foolishness’ and Q Allah’s deception (makr and khada) as divine dignity! Sorry, you are getting lost beyond recovery!!
You wrote:
“Any foolish can read these two stupid stories and find out how stupid and similar (with just certain change of character and scenario) are they.”
My response:
Thanks for proving my point that fools think Biblical salvation and your stupid story are similar by admitting, ‘any foolish can read these two stupid stories and find out how stupid and similar are they’!!
Adil
I. You wrote:
1. According to your Quran, Allah sealed the hearts of people because “first they believed, then disbelieved.” I don’t see how this supports your desperate attempt to save Q Allah, because it is consistent with Quranic Allah’s character and preplan. From other verses in the Quran we see the reason why “first they believed, then disbelieved.” This “first they believed, then disbelieved” happens mainly because Quranic Allah had created them originally for hell (S. 7:179) and therefore he himself mislead them (4:88 ) to make sure that what he said would be fulfilled when they ultimately enter into hell (S. 32:13). Excellent example of deception! ……..
2. …..
3. …..
My response:
Let us see all these three verses in question. They are self explanatory and giving nearly same message.
Quran 63:3- That is because they believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed, so they understand not.
Here God is saying about hypocrite that because they believed and then disbelieved, God sealed their hearts i.e. God will no more guide them and they will make it to hell and they are responsible for this because they earned this because of their disbelief. And therefore, God has written their destination as hell.
Quran7:179 And surely, We have created many of the jinns and mankind for Hell. They have hearts wherewith they understand not, they have eyes wherewith they see not, and they have ears wherewith they hear not (the truth). They are like cattle, nay even more astray; those! They are the heedless ones.
Here God is saying about disbeliever [ Quran 7: 175 And recite (O Muhammad ) to them the story of him to whom We gave Our Ayât (proofs..), but HE THREW THEM AWAY, SO, SATAN FOLLOWED him up, and he became of those who went astray.]
And, God is describing about his such creations (disbelievers), that He gave them understanding, vision, and sense of hearing but they behaved inferior to those who got less of these faculties and they obeyed satan and denied God, such are the creation of God for whom God has written their destination as hell.
Quran 4:88 Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? ALLÂH HAS CAST THEM BACK (TO DISBELIEF) BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY HAVE EARNED. Do you want to guide him whom Allâh has made to go astray? And he whom Allâh has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance).
This is again the same message about hypocrite, here also God is saying that He made them go astray (allowed to go to disbelief or written his place for hell), because of their deed (what they earned). If God leaves anybody astray of course who can guide them.
So, in brief all these verses say the same thing:
a. Disbeliever (or hypocrite) earned their place (disbelief and hell) by following satan even after getting senses (but not using them in right way) and revelation from God (by rejecting it).
b. So, they became the one who were left (astray) by God (because of what they earned), and of course, if God will not guide a person, nobody can guide him.
c. And, of course God’s such creation is made for hell.
It must be clear to you that what it means, made for hell or written hell. Because God is all-knowing, even, future, He knows in advance the destination of the person. It might look to us that he was a very pious person but actually it was not so, his faith was weak and he (at least in the end) acted publicly according to his intention and he had made it to hell. But God knew it in advance and wrote about his deserving destination. Of course if he was good with deed as well as faith, he would have deserved the God’s mercy and made it to heaven because God does not do the injustice.
Quran3:182 This is because of that (evil) which your hands have sent before you. And certainly, Allâh is never unjust to (His) slaves.
Still, God’s mercy is very important because humans are weak by nature and if God’s mercy was not there we could not have been guided towards faith, because, it is said in one hadith that if God likes the deed and faith of person and wants to do good to him, He guides him to religion and make him successfull (heaven). As quote below,
Quran 4:27 Allâh wishes to accept your repentance, but those who follow their lusts, wish that you (believers) should deviate tremendously away from the Right Path. 28. Allâh wishes to lighten (the burden) for you; and man was created weak .
[Sahih Bukhari Book1 Volume 3 Hadith No. 73
Narrated Muawiya: I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “If Allah wants to do good to a person, He makes him comprehend the religion … ].
II.
You wrote:
I DERIDED PROPHETS AND QUOTED:
1. About Jesus you wrote, “Jesus(pbuh) BROKE the law of Moses”
2. About David you wrote, “It is not similar to David’s story where Michal is pointing out HIS SHAMEFUL ACT”
3. About Paul you wrote, “ANOTHER TRUTH ABOUT APOSTLE PAUL.
I HAVE ALREADY PROVED HOW HE SETS PERFECTLY INTO THE CRITERIA FOR JUDGING THE FALSE PROPHET.” (Just in case you say that Paul is not a prophet remember same is applicable to Muhammad from my point of view!)
My response:
1. Did I say that Jesus broke the law? I exposed , that you believe so, and you gave excuse for such act .
Page 2 comment 10:II, you wrote,
“ To save from the Law, which was brought by Moses, and give us a New Law—“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” (John 13:34)
“For not the hearers of the Law are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.” (Rom.2:13)
In order to be come righteous how much of the Law needs to be followed?
“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” (Jam.2:10)
“Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in God’s sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.” (Rom.3:20) “
So, who is a liar?
2. About David,…. this argument took place after your comment. Don’t misquote.
There also, I gave proof.
3. Regarding Apostle Paul: We don’t consider him prophet (as you said) rather he fits perfectly in the description of false prophet.
So, after all these efforts, you got these trivial arguments to counter my challenge. I feel pity on you. And, it is only a proof that you wrongly accused me of deriding prophets. May God gives you the courage to face the truth.
III. You wrote:
1. You wrote boastfully, “Brother, We don’t believe prophet of God will do this, even if it is 5000 yrs back. He was the model to society. This shows your sickness. You peoples are deriding prophets with such beliefs.”
Let’s see what you guys made of true prophets of the Bible with the help of the ‘terrifying spirit!’ For example, you made the prophet Abraham to commit shirk, the most serious sin! Yet, you have guts to talk about Noah’s drunkenness!
“When the night covered him over, He (Abraham) saw a star: He said: “This is my Lord.” But when it set, He said: “I love not those that set.” (Quran 6:74)
“When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: “This is my Lord.” But when the moon set, He said: “unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray.” (Quran 6:75)
“When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said: “This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all).” But when the sun set, he said: “O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to God.” (Quran 6”76)
According to the above silly Arabic poems Abraham was made an idolater for some time! How about that time, was he a model for you to commit shirk?! How long will you live in this hypocrisy? (Readers, he will live in this hypocrisy as long as he continues to believe in Islam)
My response:
Is it the level of your understanding? These are the one of the strongest verse against shirk, but by your illogic and mis-presentation, you are giving just opposite meaning to it.
Quran 6:74-78, You did little mistake in quoting.
Here Abraham (a prophet of God), is talking and explaining to his disbeliever father and his peoples, who believe everything to be god. And in first example he is saying see this star is my lord and in the morning he showed to them see what happened to our God gone with night. Then similarly, he said moon and sun see these gods, with time they set and vanished. But, at the end he clears that he can’t believe them as God (and he already gave them the logic in above verses in style) and he is free from their sin of shirk.
Quran6:
74. And (remember) when Ibrâhim (Abraham) said to his father Azar: “Do you take idols as âlihâ (gods)? Verily, I see you and your people in manifest error. ”
75. Thus did we show Ibrâhim (Abraham) the kingdom of the heavens and the earth that he be one of those who have Faith with certainty.
76. When the night covered him over with darkness he saw a star. He said: “This is my lord.” But when it set, he said: “I like not those that set.”
77. When he saw the moon rising up, he said: “This is my lord.” But when it set, he said: “Unless my Lord guides me, I shall surely be among the erring people.”
78. When he saw the sun rising up, he said: “This is my lord. This is greater.” But when it set, he said: “O my people! I am indeed free from all that you join as partners in worship with Allâh.
Where is the shirk? May God give you the courage to face the truth.
It is your Bible, which is deriding prophets (e.g. Solomon) with such sin like shirk (making partner with God).
1 Kings11: 9And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, 10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go AFTER OTHER GODS: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
2. God has not prohibited drinking completely without qualification. All the way from Adam and Noah and Moses and Solomon to Jesus it is not prohibited. If you think otherwise please show me where and how. Don’t write some strong words just because you think you need to write them. Instead of showing your emotionalism cool down and used your brain.
3. As far as the drunken status of Noah is concerned that’s what happened to him and that’s what is reported. Here the Bible is not saying whether it is right or wrong, but it is reporting what has happened. Just because you don’t like that account that doesn’t mean God’s word should not contain that account! By the way, prophets are also humans and had limitations and failed at times in their exemplary lives. Reporting of such failures doesn’t make God’s word non-God’s word! …….
4…..
5. ..…
My response:
Yes, many a thing has been prohibited stage wise. It might not be prohibited in the beginning (even though not a good act), but with time it became prohibited and even opposite is true till the religion was confirmed. (Many a thing of the past was changed with time even during the times of earlier prophets like Jesus. ). Yes it was allowed to drink but still it was thought to be bad act especially if one drinks and start dancing naked. This was never acceptable as this can never be a good act or even O.K. act. There are many things which God has showed to us in our instinct that they are wrong or right. These are known to all peoples even if he never saw a prophet like tribes of forest. Even they consider killing or stealing as wrong and charity or saving as good. No need for anybody to tell about them, but here is very beautiful verse of Quran which supports me.
Quran 91: 7. And by Nafs (Adam or a person or a soul, etc.), and Him Who perfected him in proportion;
8. Then He SHOWED HIM WHAT IS WRONG FOR HIM AND WHAT IS RIGHT FOR HIM;
Then Quran praises prophets and confirm their righteous character
Quran 37: 79. Salâmun (peace) be upon Nûh (Noah) (from Us) among the ‘Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!” 80. Verily, thus We reward the Muhsinûn (good-doers).
Quran 6: 84. And We bestowed upon him Ishâque (Isaac) and Ya’qûb (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nûh (Noah), and among his progeny Dawûd (David), Sulaimân (Solomon), Ayub (Job), Yûsuf (Joseph), Mûsa (Moses), and Hârûn (Aaron). Thus do We reward the gooddoers. 85. And Zakariyâ (Zachariya), and Yahya (John) and ‘Iesa (Jesus) and Iliyâs (Elias), each one of them was of the righteous. 86. And Ismâ’il (Ishmael) and Al-Yas’â (Elisha), and Yûnus (Jonah) and Lout (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the ‘Alamîn (mankind and jinns) (of their times).
Quran 3:39 Then the angels called him, while he was standing in prayer in Al-Mihrâb (a praying place or a private room), (saying): “Allâh gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John), confirming (believing in) the Word from Allâh [i.e. the creation of ‘Iesa (Jesus), the Word from Allâh (Be! – and he was!)], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women , a Prophet, from among the righteous.”
Quran 68:4 And verily, you (O Muhammad Sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe Wa Sallam) are on an exalted standard of character.
Quran 33:21 Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.
I think these many quotations were enough to prove the prophets were best of the characters, righteous and model for the society. Not the typical drunkards, rapist and deceiver as Bible projected them.
Can you tell me what the role of prophets was, if not guidance and conveying the message of God? If it is guidance, they must have Islamic way of character of prophets not typical drunkard or studs (of Bible).
IV. You wrote:
1. Here is the hadith I quoted: Muslim-Drinks-3753: ”We were with the Prophet of Allah, and He was thirsty, and a man said: O prophet of Allah, Do you want to drink wine? Prophet of Allah said: Yes. The Man went to get the wine. The Prophet of Allah said: Make it Intoxicated. And He (Muhammad) Drank”
In my last posting I forgot to give you the source details of this hadith. Here they are:
This hadith and its number are in Arabic. It can be found on the Arabic website of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia: Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Endowments, Da‘wah and Guidance
(http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=4824). Since the website doesn’t give the English translation of the hadith, for whatever reasons, I took its English translation from a website called “The Spittoon” (http://www.spittoon.org/archives/7083)
2. By the way, this hadith is not my production. As far as the translation is concerned since I don’t know Arabic I quote others. In this particular quote if the translation is not perfect I apologize to my Muslim friends for that.
3. For argument sake,….
My response:
By the way, your link to this Islamic Arabic website does not open to the hadith as you told, rather to the index page. Here also hadith no. 3753 of Sahih Muslim does not prove your allegation rather it is the same what I said for English. So, what you said was a lie propagated by you if not invented. In future, you must cross check the references before projecting them . Don’t give link to a page of any site which you yourself can’t understand.
Quran 49: 6. O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done.
Your another link is nothing but denoting view of “a rebellious evil person”.
V. You wrote:
…..Some observations …
David was wearing a linen ephod!
David was leaping and dancing (the Bible did not say David was leaping and dancing nakedly!).
Michal looked out of the window.
Michal saw David leaping and dancing. (NOT Michal saw David leaping and dancing naked)
Michal despised him in her heart. (This is why she spoke of David derogatorily by exaggerating what he had done before the LORD. When David realized that Michal was not participating actively in the celebrations before the LORD he had every reason to deal with her harshly. Moreover she started to comment negatively and accusing him. Here David was not in need of defending or denying his actions before Michal and give her a soothing explanation.)
My response:
I already gave you logic, where does this negate them? Late me paste them again here.
“2 Samuel 6: 20Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! 21And David said unto Michal, [It was] before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD. 22And I WILL YET BE MORE VILE than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour. 23Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death. KJV
Anybody can read the story and understand the truth which you tried to cover. Here Michal is saying what she saw, not telling the lie. Reason?
King David did not deny the allegation rather he did not like Michal pointing out his acts with his maids on the celebration day. Neither did the writer of this book deny this claim of Michal. Can you show me a verse where King David denied it as a lie. Rather it is opposite. King David justified his act, that he was made king, so he had right to celebrate and he overreacted and said that he would be even more vile than this in future and to the maid servants with whom she objected will no more be just a playgirl rather he will honor them (probably marry) and poor Michal was completely neglected for the rest of the life ( so she could not have any child unto the day of her death).
Readers can judge the reading skill of Mr. Christian Adil. Is it the way Prophet behaves (according to Bible)? ”…..
I gave some good logic.
1. Why David did not reject her view?
2. Why David said:
“22And I WILL YET BE MORE VILE than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.”
And why?
“23Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.”
3. If it is not specifically mentioned the details of dance party, can it be said for sure, what she said was wrong? Any proof? Rather all logic and proof against this, specially, when David is known in Bible for such behaviors. (Bathseheba?)
Brother you can’t play with words and go away.
VI. You wrote: by mentioning my response,
“There is another absurd story (version) related to Prophet David in Bible.
He commits adultery with Bath-sheba the wife of Uriah:
2 SAMUEL 11:4 “And David sent messengers, and took her (Bathsheba); and she came in unto him, and he LAY (had intercourse) with her. . .
Then David wickedly caused the death of Uriah, the husband of Bath-sheba.
See. 2 SAMUEL 11:6-25
Now Quran comes to rescue Prophet David. According to Islam prophets were human with all human feelings and limitations but under strict guidance and inspiration of God as they were model for the society.
Quran 38 21. And has the news of the litigants reached you? When they climbed over the wall into (his) Mihrâb (a praying place or a private room,). 22. When they entered in upon Dâwûd (David), he was terrified of them, they said: “Fear not! (We are) two litigants, one of whom has wronged the other, therefore judge between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, and guide us to the Right Way.23. Verily, this my brother (in religion) has ninety nine ewes, while I have (only) one ewe, and he says: “Hand it over to me, and he overpowered me in speech.” 24. [Dâwûd (David)] said (immediately without listening to the opponent): “He has wronged you in DEMANDING your ewe in addition to his ewes. And, verily, many partners oppress one another, except those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and they are few.” And Dâwûd (David) guessed that WE HAVE TRIED HIM and he sought Forgiveness of his Lord, and he fell down prostrate and turned (to Allâh) in repentance. 25. So We forgave him that, and verily, for him is a near access to Us, and a good place of (final) return (Paradise).
The actual event as one clearly understands from the aforesaid verses of the Quran was – David had expressed his desire to Uriah (or whatever be the name of the man) that he should divorce his wife as David wanted her for himself. And because David was a king, his request put Uriah in a helpless situation feeling compelled to yield. At this time, before Uriah could act as David had desired, two righteous men of the nation suddenly appeared in the presence of David and presented their problem which (in terms of violation of justice) was similar to the story of David and Uriah. On hearing it, David gave his decision as king, asserting that the man with “99 ewes” had wronged the other man who with one ewe. Soon after, his conscience made him realize his violation when he became aware that this incident was a reminder to him of his own act of injustice (As David already had many wives and he wanted to add one more to them). David immediately repented, fell down prostrate before God Almighty and reversed his decision. On the basis of his sincere repentance, David was granted forgiveness by the Divine Power and his status remained unaffected. On accepting his repentance, Quran 38:26 is also a warning to Prophet David from God Almighty along with giving him the good news of exalting his rank, being evidence of the fact that David never again stumbled into similar temptations or errors arising from personal desires.
So, David, a human (and prophet) got a wrong desire but God protected and guided him. He remained righteous, but Bible made him a rapist and deceiver.
Who is deriding prophets, Bible or Quran?”
THEN YOU SAID,
1. If God chooses to record the sins of the prophets that is objectionable to your brain. The way you made the recording of the sins of David in the Bible equal to “Bible made him a rapist and deceiver” shows us how Islam has corrupted your mind. It’s no wonder only Islam can do that!
2. The one who reads the story of David in the Quran should be left wondering with many questions and confusion.
What was David’s wrong? Why did David have to ask forgiveness? What was it that David repented of?
These are the simple but important questions regarding David in this context. The so-called Allah’s word got no clue to offer.
My response:
1. Muslim can’t believe their prophets would be rapist and deceiver. You believe and follow them. What else excuse you need to hide your activity.
2. Because David DEMANDED for this (his wife) and created problem for him(? Uriah) and failed the test of Lord. Therefore he asked for forgiveness.
So, according to you, the further story has any clue to your problem. Brother, that is just the continuation of this story (2 Samuel Chapters 12). But, where did God punish David? God punished Bathsheba and that baby, by killing him (the baby) and giving David a fresh baby.
I already told you not to quote from unauthentic sources. Instead, you did the same i.e. you quoted from book of historians esp. the book is refuted as proof of tradition (Hadith). O.K. can you give me the exact chain of narrator of this story in Tabari. And as far as Tabari is concerned he wrote the story as he heard from peoples, honestly, but mentioned in the book itself that there are many weakness in tradition and could not provide narrator in many cases which is a must to verify a hadith. Also in many instances scholars mention the hadith and tell that it is a weak hadith only to make us know that this is a fabrication. You can see hadith books even from Sihah sittah like Tirmidhi or Sunnan Abu dawud or Ibn Majah, scholars have kept the weak tradition in the book with the mention in places as it is a weak hadith (mostly lie). It does not degrade the authors rather show their honesty and dedication to pass the correct information (within their limit)
If you can’t control this and want to keep quoting from unauthentic sources, please don’t debate with me. If you can’t quote from AUTHENTIC SOURCES as MUSLIMS believe and proved, you have no right to argue on the matters related to Muslim. Please control your hypocrisy.
Later, some of your disciple may consider you as historian and started quoting from your books (suppose you write)or even from any muslim author. It can’t be acceptable to Muslims even if you or your disciple love them. It has to go through verification for authentication. Nobody can lie and escape in Islam.
I gave you the reason why MUSLIMS don’t consider books of historian as source of knowledge for Islam. By the way the story you presented is a known fabrication. So, I won’t accept it as argument. Brother, I told you in advance but I knew you can’t help it because your foundation is based on lies. May God Give you courage to face the Truth.
You gave your argument:
“. By the way, regarding the quotes from Muslim historian Tabari you expressed some objections, which is typically the character of a whining and loosing child. I suggested a better way of debating without hurting each others religious feelings. You did not accept that and went on your way throwing insults and false accusations on god’s word, the bible. Now when you realize you are loosing ground you demand that i follow your criterion. You are behaving like a silly fellow. You believe blindly that Quran is Allah’s word, Muhammad is Allah’s prophet and hadiths such as Bukhari, Muslim etc. are authentic. Did I ever agree to that? Or when did I agree to quote only these ones in our postings? I did offer something along these lines, but like a typical Muslim apologist you rejected it and now started to whine, weep, cry and complain! HOW CAN YOU EXPECT ME TO QUOTE ONLY WHAT YOU EXPECT ME TO QUOTE WHEN YOU HAVE REFUSED TO ABIDE BY SAME PRINCIPLES? So far I was quoting from these as they are readily available to me. As I am expanding the study of Islam I am getting access to wider Islamic sources from pious Muslims and that’s why I am quoting even from them wherever appropriate. (Readers, please note that I am not quoting here anti-Muslims or liberal Muslims, but pious Muslims.) ”
My response to yours (in CAPITALS):
1. “HOW CAN YOU EXPECT ME TO QUOTE ONLY WHAT YOU EXPECT ME TO QUOTE WHEN YOU HAVE REFUSED TO ABIDE BY SAME PRINCIPLES? “
Did I refuse to quote you from the authentic sources according to your belief? So, it means probably you don’t believe in your Bible totally. I challenge you to give one proof where I quoted from BOOKS you don’t believe to be correct.
2. “AS I AM EXPANDING THE STUDY OF ISLAM I AM GETTING ACCESS TO WIDER ISLAMIC SOURCES FROM PIOUS MUSLIMS AND THAT’S WHY I AM QUOTING EVEN FROM THEM WHEREVER APPROPRIATE.”
Brother, you are again wrong. Christian Apologetics read Tabari as one of the first few books of Muslim sources (because they get many weak tradition inside to fulfill their desire), even before they read Bible and mostly they never read Quran except to confirm their quotations.
3. “YOU BELIEVE BLINDLY THAT QURAN IS ALLAH’S WORD, MUHAMMAD IS ALLAH’S PROPHET AND HADITHS SUCH AS BUKHARI, MUSLIM ETC. ARE AUTHENTIC. DID I EVER AGREE TO THAT? OR WHEN DID I AGREE TO QUOTE ONLY THESE ONES IN OUR POSTINGS?”
Again wrong. We don’t believe them blindly. We have reasons to believe. We have the originals plus the chain of narrators quoting the originals plus biography of the chain of narrators (to verify them) plus we have wholly preserved Quran (through memorization) to study and investigate them (Hadiths). Now, can you tell me what do you have for your holy book, leave the other story books, to make you believe Bible as original. Yes, you have no memorization system, so totally dependent on material. And, you have thousands of original manuscripts and amazingly no two are duplicate. Even you accepted about such problems of alteration in the materials of Bible. You have no system of chain of narrator to verify the claim of original. How come you utter such rubbish.
So, who told you to agree? But if you want to give me proof related to my faith it should be from the books we faith, the way I do to you. It is an etiquette. Yes, you even did not agree for etiquette, that you will never lie. Probably that is the reason you are busy lying since first comment. May God guide you to the truth.
VII. YOU WROTE:
QUOTING MY COMMENT IN COMMENT 49,
“How about your Muhammad? Look at your own Quran’s record of what has been said of him: “And they say: “O you (Muhammad) to whom the Dhikr (the Qur’an) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man. Why do you not bring angels to us if you are of the truthful ones?” S. 15:6 Hilali-Khan. The so-called Allah’s word records that Muhammad was declared by others as a MAD man.” My response: This is another incident where you tried to prove your point by “turning off the light”. Now I will turn the lights on. Bad peoples usually declare good people as mad man, …..it does not make the man, mad.”
YOU INTENTIONALLY LEFT THE NEXT FEW LINES LET ME INCLUDE AS IN ORIGINAL.
….. it does not make the man, mad. It is not similar to David’s story where Michal is pointing out his shameful act. Because, he himself never denied neither did the author deny, instead he over reacted and proved her point to be correct (as we saw above). In these verses of Quran, prophet was called mad man by people, but in the verses to follow, IT IS CLEARED THAT IT WAS FALSE ALLEGATION RATHER A TYPE OF MOCK BY THE PEOPLES TO THEIR PROPHET.
Quran 15:11 And never came a Messenger to them but they did mock him.
Brother you can’t misquote and escape. Readers can see your deception, once the light is on.
AND THEN YOU WROTE:
1. You are right, ‘bad peoples usually declare good people as mad man, it does not make the man, mad.’ However, mad people sometimes think they are mad…..
My response: Give the proof not your ill-thinking.
2. The opponents of Muhammad did believe and say that he was a madman. Although Muhammad through his alleged inspired VERSES DENIED IT IN THE ABOVE VERSES, initially he himself thought that he was a ‘madman’ or going mad….
THEN YOU QUOTED FROM TABARI WHICH I DON’T INCLUDE HERE (REASONS , AS I MENTIONED ABOVE) .
“But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, “O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah’s Apostle in truth” whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home.” (Sahi Bukhari V9, B87, N.111)
My response:
So, what is the problem with this hadith? Where is it said he became mad. It is only said he was very disturbed (metaphorically, he felt like throwing himself from mountain) by such feelings in the beginning, and after getting the soothing message he was relieved, same as we discussed in the comments before.
What happened to your senses? May God save you.
VIII. You wrote and pasted my comment:
“Regarding prophet Isiah: You said “…The prophet went about barefoot and naked (in his undergarment) as a shocking means of gaining the attention of the people to the severity of his prediction….”.
Brother, last week I saw a group of some Apologists walking on road naked with their buttocks uncovered and barefoot. Don’t be angry, I probably mean they were naked under their garments. Even though I gave the beautiful reasoning that they were naked under their garments, still it sound offensive. How could God use such offensive language (if not in literal sense) for his prophets in His holy book? But, it was more than the use of language and it did mean naked only, not naked in his undergarment. Reason:
a. God forgot to say that Isiah was naked in his under garment which was inspired to you people. No where it is mentioned so.
b. Why did the Lord used word ‘SHAME’ for such act when He himself ordered his prophet to do so and predicted the same for the king of Assyria doing to his captives.
Isiah 20:3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant ISAIAH HATH WALKED NAKED and barefoot three years [for] a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia; 4So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, NAKED and barefoot, even WITH [THEIR] BUTTOCKS UNCOVERED, to the SHAME of Egypt.
Your reading ability is seriously doubtful. Now you tried another covering up by “turning the light off”. You quoted from Quran and tried to prove it to be similar to the above act. But actually it is opposite. You quoted about Adam and Eve when they ate from the prohibited tree , their test got finished and were made ready to be sent to earth and made as spouse for one another and their sexual desire was set started which in the language of Quran “ their raiment was stripped” . Is it the same as one getting naked in public to get attention? It is no where written that they were made naked with buttocks uncovered (language of Bible). Even if taken in literal sense (which is not the case even according to Bible for Adam and Eve in this scenario), it is not a shameful act as they were spouse (first spouse on the Earth) and was private in their act, as there was no body to see them. You mean all the spouses in their privacy, if get naked, it is a shameful act and it is similar to naked females rallying on road of America for certain demands such as wild life conservation (to get attention probably inspired from Bible, as we saw above ).
Isn’t it amazing and hypocritical? I think this much light was enough to expose your deception. Our intelligent readers can judge the lie and deception.”
Then, your response:
1. Here again you displayed your corrupt mind under Islamic influence. Prophet Isaiah was ordered by God to be a sign to others in a particular way. That is offensive language to you?! You are telling me that Almighty God cannot order His servants to do what He wants them to do. But in the same breath you believe that it is divine order if Muhammad says ‘bow down to the black stone.’ You expect your Allah to command his prophets only what you think is acceptable or what Muhammad says is right. That is your ignorance and heightened perversion. By the way, if a person is fully naked then you don’t have to say that person is walking with buttocks uncovered!
My response:
You mean God will say his prophet to walk naked for getting attention. Isn’t it? Ha.. Haa.
Who told you that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) bowed to black stone? I read, He kissed the stone, sometimes pointed towards that stone with his finger or stick but never bowed to that stone. Yes, we can keep certain things like stone in front to guard our area of salat (prayer) from mistake of others or we can point towards a direction in salat even if pillar or stone is in front of you but that never amounts to bowing to it.
Don’t you think Bible also allows this to have direction for bowing in prayer .
Psalms 138:2 I will WORSHIP TOWARD THY HOLY TEMPLE, and praise thy name for thy loving kindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Brother, we can’t bow to anybody whether son, or cow, except to one and only Allah. I think it is your, yet another cheating.
Yes, if you happen to see a person from back, esp. buttocks, there is no abnormality in saying that You saw that person naked with buttocks uncovered (i.e. to stress your point).
2. You justified your own book by saying, “You quoted about Adam and Eve when they ate from the prohibited tree , their test got finished and were made ready to be sent to earth and made as spouse for one another and their sexual desire was set started which in the language of Quran “ their raiment was stripped” . Is it the same as one getting naked in public to get attention? It is no where written that they were made naked with buttocks uncovered (language of Bible). Even if taken in literal sense (which is not the case even according to Bible for Adam and Eve in this scenario), it is not a shameful act as they were spouse (first spouse on the Earth) and was private in their act, as there was no body to see them.”
Here is what your Quran says, “O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their SHAME: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.” (Quran 7:27). But looks like you know better than your Q Allah! You say, ‘it is not shameful act as they were spouse and was private in their act, as there was no body to see them.” But your Q Allah says, “he got (Satan) your parents…stripping them of their raiment, to expose their SHAME.” If you are right then Q Allah is wrong for he says that ‘they were exposed of their SHAME!’
My response:
So, you are trying to make “shame” mean as their “shameful act”. Isn’t it? Sorry brother, your lack of Arabic knowledge is a big problem. Let me show you what you don’t want to see. Let me quote the same from another standard translation i.e. Muhsin Khan (or Hilali as you prefer to say) which is more literal in translation than other translations.
Quran 7:27O Children of Adam! Let not Shaitân (Satan) deceive you, as he got your parents [Adam and Hawwa (Eve)] out of Paradise, stripping them of their raiments, to show them their PRIVATE PARTS. Verily, he and Qabîluhu (his soldiers from the jinns or his tribe) see you from where you cannot see them. Verily, We made the Shayâtin (devils) Auliyâ’ (protectors and helpers) for those who believe not.
Here, “shame” means “private parts”, yes, think properly even this word (shame) can be used . And this proves my point [i.e. their sexual desire was set started which in the language of Quran “ their raiment was stripped”]. If you need further Arabic details, tell me until you get satisfied or you start abusing me and my faith.
THEN YOU SAID,
# But you have a good point in stating, ‘it is not same as one getting naked in public.’ Wait a minute, for that purpose let us turn to your Islamic stupid stories now:
“Narrated Aisha
Zayd ibn Harithah came to Medina ……………..
Tirmidhi transmitted it.” (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 1220- ALIM CD-ROM Version)
……….
“Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah:
While Allah’s Apostle was carrying stones (along) with the people of Mecca for (the building of) the Ka’ba wearing an Izar (waist-sheet cover), his uncle Al-‘Abbas said to him, “O my nephew! (It would be better) if you take off your Izar and put it over your shoulders underneath the stones.” So he took off his Izar and put it over his shoulders, but he fell unconscious AND SINCE THEN HE HAD NEVER BEEN SEEN NAKED. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 360)”
(Readers, what should we call all this on the part of Muslims like M Comforter? STUPIDITY? HYPOCRISY? SHAMELESSNESS? WICKEDNESS? OR ISLAMIC HONESTY! You decide.) #
My response:
First hadith you quoted from Tirmidhi is either a lie or probably a weak hadith and not present in authentic collection of Tirmidhi. You can check Alim CD for windows version 4.5. In my book of Tirmidhi (Sahih; authentic) also this number does not exist. In short, I would not accept any fabricated hadith as argument, even if you feel like jumping from mountain.
Now regarding second hadith
Let me give another version of the same hadith
Sahih Muslim Book3 Hadith 670,
Jabir b. ‘Abdullah reported: When the Ka’ba was constructed the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abbas went and lifted stones. Abbas said to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him): Place your lower garment on your shoulder (so that you may protect yourself from the roughness and hardness of stones). He (the Holy Prophet) did this, but fell down upon the ground in a state of unconciousness and his eyes were turned towards the sky. He then stood up and said: My lower garment, my lower garment; and this wrapper was tied around him. In the hadith transmitted by Ibn Rafi’, there is the word:” On his neck” and he did not say:” Upon his shoulder.”
See in both of hadiths the the last narrator is the same. And there is difference in few words, it happens, when two peoples narrate the same story heard from same person.
Probably, this story is of his childhood and he was busy helping family members in Kaba construction,( because his uncle Abbas did not accept Islam after the battle of Badr i.e. until nearly 20 years of prophet hood, and he was even captured during that battle). He tied his lower garment over neck to avoid injury on neck and shoulder while carrying stone (as suggested by uncle). It was not kept on shoulder, as felt in other version of this story. And even here it is added at the end that “on his neck not shoulder”. Another proof that after he stood up from state of unconsciousness, he was saying about his lower garment i.e. My lower garment , My lower garment , only to find it tied around him, so it was tied to neck only. So, it is not mentioned in hadith that he got naked. Only problem here is, THE WORDS OF NARRATOR that he was never seen naked after that. It is his misunderstanding while other narrator did not mention such view. Probably he got such thinking because he felt, he (prophet pbuh) kept the lower garment literally over shoulder, as said by his uncle and mentioned in this version of story.
Is this story parallel to story of Drunken prophets exhibiting in public (Bible). Actually speaking it is opposite of what you claim. Here prophet even in that age and that condition of unconsciousness was so much concerned about his dress.
Now let me reverse the barrel on you.
(Readers, what should we call all this on the part of Mr. Christian Adil? STUPIDITY? HYPOCRISY? SHAMELESSNESS? WICKEDNESS? OR …………! You decide.)
But here is difference in our ways. Try to find out by comparing with his similar comment above.
3. How about your final so-called illiterate prophet portraying prophet Moses as NAKED in public?
“Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “(The Prophet) Moses was a shy person and used to cover his body completely because of his extensive shyness. One of the children of Israel hurt him by saying, ‘He covers his body in this way only because of some defect in his skin, either leprosy or scrotal hernia, or he has some other defect.’ Allah wished to clear Moses of what they said about him, so one day while Moses was in seclusion, he took off his clothes and put them on a stone and started taking a bath. When he had finished the bath, he moved towards his clothes so as to take them, but the stone took his clothes and fled; Moses picked up his stick and ran after the stone saying, ‘O stone! Give me my garment!’ Till he reached a group of Bani Israel WHO SAW HIM NAKED then, and found him the best of what Allah had created, and ALLAH CLEARED HIM OF WHAT THEY HAD ACCUSED HIM OF. The stone stopped there and Moses took and put his garment on and started hitting the stone with his stick. By Allah, the stone still has some traces of the hitting, three, four or five marks. This was what Allah refers to in His Saying:– “O you who believe! Be you not like those Who annoyed Moses, But Allah proved his innocence of that which they alleged, And he was honorable In Allah’s Sight.” (33.69) (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 616)
……….SIMILAR HADITHS
You believe these stupid stories and accept them with Islamic piousness? (Amazing) While these stupid stories portraying prophet of God being NAKED you don’t see any problem in that. Isn’t this heightened Islamic hypocrisy!
My response:
If somebody has certain mark on his genital region and it is the only proof which is decisive in a case and court orders for it’s verification and authorized people see his genital region and testify. Do you mean that man was indecent because he showed his genitals to others.
Or, Judge was indecent by asking for this. Or, would you call that man as naked man because of what Judge did to him?
What do you call this? A necessity or exhibitionism?
Opposite to your claim, Moses was projected as shy person not as drunken naked stud of Bible. And even then (after being alleged) he did not show his “shame” (sorry, private parts) to peoples and God wanted to rescue his prophet from such taunting and helped him in this way, which he himself could have never done , out of his shyness. So, in brief this hadith says,
Moses was a very shy and righteous person, who out of his shyness tolerated the allegation. Can you still call Moses a naked man. If so, I have no problem in asking you to get yourself consulted to a psychiatrist. May God return back your senses.
IX. You quoted my comments:
“With such quality attributed to prophets they are bound to get rid of their prophet hood and I am sure at least in the case of Prophet Lot (as Quran saved him and we believe he was free from such lie). In one place, I said that it was regarding prophet Israel (Genesis 35:22), I never said prophet Israel committed that sin/ incest. Yes, it was his elder son who committed incest with his mother (father’s wife or concubine – in the language of Bible wife and concubine can be same e.g. see GENESIS 25:1 and I CHRONICLES 1:32). You gave a good reasoning that at that time it was not prohibited to have incest with mother, the law came much later. We don’t believe so. We can’t expect such act from any human leave the prophet and his family, to be a non sinful act, at any time whether before thousand years or more. I think even Bible agrees with me and even you too partially, because you said “The SIN of Ruben has been exposed in the Bible. As a result of this sin Ruben lost his position to Levi in God’s blessings.” Why he lost the position, if it was still not the sinful act? Similarly how could Prophet Lot (nauzbillah) perform incest with his daughters much before the appearance of law of Moses when it was still considered sin (as we saw above). Similarly how could Judah (father in law thinking going to whore) and Tamar (taking sweet revenge) commit such sinful acts. For what purpose Bible presents such story & what moral lesson is there? Probably a theme for x- graded movies or story books, certainly not of holy book of God.”
My response:
1. For the corrupt mind everything is corrupt, ………….followed by TYPICAL CHRISTIAN ADIL’S ABUSE .
My response:
May God guide you to decency in accepting truth.
2. a) You wrote under Islamic influence, “You gave a good reasoning that at that time it was not prohibited to have incest with mother, the law came much later.”..
Where did I say that “at that time it was not prohibited to have incest with mother” giving the impression that it was acceptable to have incest with mother? ……. (followed by TYPICAL CHRISTIAN ADIL’S ABUSE) …What I wrote was, “Again although INCEST OF THIS TYPE HAS BEEN FORBIDDEN IN THE ‘LAW OF MOSES,’ which came five hundred years after this incident, the Bible is not endorsing it but exposing it.” …….( followed by TYPICAL CHRISTIAN ADIL’S ABUSE ).
My response:
I think you are again trying to play with words. You are saying “incest of this type was prohibited in the LAW OF MOSES, and law of Moses came 500 years after this incident”. So, what does it mean? It is obvious that it does not apply to peoples before the law.
Now regarding your comment, “the Bible is not endorsing it but exposing it”. Where did I say Bible advised you to do this? I only said a holy book should have certain etiquettes and it should not give wrong image to follower, who may take it, that if prophets of God (having communication with God) could commit such sins and escape, why don’t we try it (after all we have double shelter, we are not prophets so accountability is also less plus somebody has committed suicide to save us). Isn’t it an important reason, Christian world is deeply involved in drinking, exhibitionism, illegal sex involving incest?
Is it not a confusion for people that the person whom God selected for conveying message and guidance, himself involved in all those? Yes, prophets were humans but they were best of the human of the time with best of the character and strict guidance of God. So, if some prophets did mistake or minor sins , it could be acceptable considering their human nature but Prophets committing adultery and deceiving and killing people to cover his sin is surely not acceptable by any logic. Even Bible says.
Bible – 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
c) By the way, don’t try to equate father’s concubine with own mother in every sense with the help of Islamic reasoning. ….
My response:
Did I try to equate word “concubine” and “wife”. I quoted your Bible which probably you believe to be an authentic source. If you don’t believe particular chapter to be true, please inform me, inshallah I will avoid them.
Genesis 25:1 Then again ABRAHAM TOOK A WIFE, and her name [was] Keturah.
1 Chronicles 1:32 2Now the sons of Keturah, ABRAHAM’S CONCUBINE: she bare …….
X. You wrote:
1. & 2.
Your boasting is worth testing. If you think that’s what you can do, first please answer these questions:
a. Could and did prophets sin? If no, then, where does your so-called Allah’s word (Quran) say that prophets cannot sin or did not sin?
b. Where does the Quran say that God will not expose the sins of the prophets or God’s word does not record such things?
c. According to your Quran or Muhammad or Islam or you, what are the acceptable accounts or God’s word can contain and what it cannot contain and why?
d. According to the Quran or you what kind of language (literal or figurative) or non-offensive language is acceptable for God’s word and what not and why?
I hope with your answer we can do some meaningful and interesting discussion of the Bible and Quran.
………………….
My response:
Let me quote few verse from Bible and Quran to explain to you that it is not only Islamic logic rather endorsement of Bible as well, of my claims that
a)PROPHETS were righteous and sent to us to guide peoples and were of best of characters and model for the society &
b)HOLY BOOKS are plain, without crookedness, for guidance of people (of course by giving good examples not by showing blue films that also of prophets; brother even in present society we will not show our children X graded movies to teach them or guide them instead we will show some inspiring movies to boost their morale and guide them ).
REGARDING PROPHETS:
Exodus 7: 1And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. 2Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
Numbers 11: 29And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD’S people were prophets, [and] that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Genesis 15:6 (God to Abram) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
2 Samuel22: 21 (David is acknowledging God) The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me. 22For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
Luke 23: 47 (peoples saying about Jesus) Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.
John 16: 7 (Jesus about prophet Mohammad) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, HE WILL REPROVE THE WORLD OF SIN, AND OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND OF JUDGMENT: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me
Quran 19:
41. And mention in the Book (the Qur’ân) Ibrâhim (Abraham). Verily! He was a man of truth, a Prophet
51. And mention in the Book (this Qur’ân) Mûsa (Moses). Verily! He was chosen and he was a Messenger (and) a Prophet.
54. And mention in the Book (the Qur’ân) Ismâ’il (Ishmael). Verily! He was true to what he promised, and he was a Messenger, (and) a Prophet.
Quran 37: 79. Salâmun (peace) be upon Nûh (Noah) (from Us) among the ‘Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!” 80. Verily, thus We reward the Muhsinûn (good-doers).
Quran 6: 84. And We bestowed upon him Ishâque (Isaac) and Ya’qûb (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nûh (Noah), and among his progeny Dawûd (David), Sulaimân (Solomon), Ayub (Job), Yûsuf (Joseph), Mûsa (Moses), and Hârûn (Aaron). Thus do We reward the gooddoers. 85. And Zakariyâ (Zachariya), and Yahya (John) and ‘Iesa (Jesus) and Iliyâs (Elias), each one of them was of the righteous. 86. And Ismâ’il (Ishmael) and Al-Yas’â (Elisha), and Yûnus (Jonah) and Lout (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the ‘Alamîn (mankind and jinns) (of their times).
Quran 3:39 Then the angels called him, while he was standing in prayer in Al-Mihrâb (a praying place or a private room), (saying): “Allâh gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John), confirming (believing in) the Word from Allâh [i.e. the creation of ‘Iesa (Jesus), the Word from Allâh (Be! – and he was!)], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women , a Prophet, from among the righteous.”
Quran 68:4 And verily, you (O Muhammad Sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe Wa Sallam) are on an exalted standard of character.
Quran 33:21 Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.
REGARDING HOLY BOOK:
Bible – 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Bible-2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Quran 18: 1. All the praises and thanks be to Allâh, Who has sent down to His slave (Muhammad) the Book (the Qur’ân), and has not placed therein any crookedness.
Quran 6: 154. Then, We gave Mûsa (Moses) the Book [the Taurât (Torah)], to complete (Our Favour) upon those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail and a guidance and a mercy that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
Quran 7: 52. Certainly, We have brought to them a Book (the Qur’ân) which We have explained in detail with knowledge, – a guidance and a mercy to a people who believe.
Quran 16: 89. And (remember) the Day when We shall raise up from every nation a witness against them from amongst themselves. And We shall bring you (O Muhammad ) as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the Book (the Qur’an) as an exposition of everything, a guidance, a mercy, and glad tidings for those who have submitted themselves (to Allâh as Muslims).
So, now we can see your questions:
a) Were the prophets sinner or righteous? We saw God selected righteous people for that purpose. And I must remind you, I never said prophets were angels and sinless. I said prophets were human, prone for sins but under strict guidance from God to give their peoples good moral, not typical drunken studs exhibiting nakedness (and attributing to God) and performing illegal sex, incest even openly (and attributing to God) and deceiving and killing people to cover his sins. And even praying to other gods (i.e. shirk).
1 kings 11:9 And the LORD was angry with SOLOMON, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, 10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that HE SHOULD NOT GO AFTER OTHER GODS: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
b) It is a logic that something which is there to guide people (i.e. Holy book) should not promote bad things by attributing those things to their models. Are these indecent materials in the book of God are guidance and mercy to us (to straighten us) or crookedness. I will quote a story of Bible tell me where it sets to righteousness or any of the criteria given by your Bible for it to be from God.
Bible-2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is]
(i) profitable for doctrine,
(ii) for reproof,
(iii) for correction,
(iv) for instruction in righteousness:
Read this story:
Genesis 38: 6And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name [was] Tamar. 7And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. 8And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. 9And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled [it] on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. 10And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also. 11Then said Judah to Tamar his daughter in law, Remain a widow at thy father’s house, till Shelah my son be grown: for he said, Lest peradventure he die also, as his brethren [did]. And Tamar went and dwelt in her father’s house.
12And in process of time the daughter of Shuah Judah’s wife died; and Judah was comforted, and went up unto his sheepshearers to Timnath, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite. 13And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep. 14And she put her widow’s garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which [is] by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife. 15When Judah saw her, he thought her [to be] an harlot; because she had covered her face. 16And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she [was] his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me? 17And he said, I will send [thee] a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give [me] a pledge, till thou send [it]? 18And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that [is] in thine hand. And he gave [it] her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him. 19And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood. 20And Judah sent the kid by the hand of his friend the Adullamite, to receive [his] pledge from the woman’s hand: but he found her not. 21Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where [is] the harlot, that [was] openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this [place]. 22And he returned to Judah, and said, I cannot find her; and also the men of the place said, [that] there was no harlot in this [place]. 23And Judah said, Let her take [it] to her, lest we be shamed: behold, I sent this kid, and thou hast not found her.
24And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she [is] with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. 25When she [was] brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these [are, am] I with child: and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose [are] these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff. 26And Judah acknowledged [them], and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.
Now reply my question, where do you set the sweet revenge of Tamar to his father in law.
Is this story of sweet revenge by Tamar,
profitable for doctrine,
for reproof,
for correction,
for instruction in righteousness ?
So, according to Bible itself these should not be the words inspired by God leave the Quran and logic aside.
c) & d) So, a book of God (both in content and language) should be to guide people, as we saw in quotation
I. You wrote:
1. According to your Quran, Allah sealed the hearts of people because “first they believed, then disbelieved.” I don’t see how this supports your desperate attempt to save Q Allah, because it is consistent with Quranic Allah’s character and preplan. From other verses in the Quran we see the reason why “first they believed, then disbelieved.” This “first they believed, then disbelieved” happens mainly because Quranic Allah had created them originally for hell (S. 7:179) and therefore he himself mislead them (4:88 ) to make sure that what he said would be fulfilled when they ultimately enter into hell (S. 32:13). Excellent example of deception! ……..
2. …..
3. …..
My response:
Let us see all these three verses in question. They are self explanatory and giving nearly same message.
Quran 63:3- That is because they believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed, so they understand not.
Here God is saying about hypocrite that because they believed and then disbelieved, God sealed their hearts i.e. God will no more guide them and they will make it to hell and they are responsible for this because they earned this because of their disbelief. And therefore, God has written their destination as hell.
Quran7:179 And surely, We have created many of the jinns and mankind for Hell. They have hearts wherewith they understand not, they have eyes wherewith they see not, and they have ears wherewith they hear not (the truth). They are like cattle, nay even more astray; those! They are the heedless ones.
Here God is saying about disbeliever [ Quran 7: 175 And recite (O Muhammad ) to them the story of him to whom We gave Our Ayât (proofs..), but HE THREW THEM AWAY, SO, SATAN FOLLOWED him up, and he became of those who went astray.]
And, God is describing about his such creations (disbelievers), that He gave them understanding, vision, and sense of hearing but they behaved inferior to those who got less of these faculties and they obeyed satan and denied God, such are the creation of God for whom God has written their destination as hell.
Quran 4:88 Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? ALLÂH HAS CAST THEM BACK (TO DISBELIEF) BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY HAVE EARNED. Do you want to guide him whom Allâh has made to go astray? And he whom Allâh has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance).
This is again the same message about hypocrite, here also God is saying that He made them go astray (allowed to go to disbelief or written his place for hell), because of their deed (what they earned). If God leaves anybody astray of course who can guide them.
So, in brief all these verses say the same thing:
a. Disbeliever (or hypocrite) earned their place (disbelief and hell) by following satan even after getting senses (but not using them in right way) and revelation from God (by rejecting it).
b. So, they became the one who were left (astray) by God (because of what they earned), and of course, if God will not guide a person, nobody can guide him.
c. And, of course God’s such creation is made for hell.
It must be clear to you that what it means, made for hell or written hell. Because God is all-knowing, even, future, He knows in advance the destination of the person. It might look to us that he was a very pious person but actually it was not so, his faith was weak and he (at least in the end) acted publicly according to his intention and he had made it to hell. But God knew it in advance and wrote about his deserving destination. Of course if he was good with deed as well as faith, he would have deserved the God’s mercy and made it to heaven because God does not do the injustice.
Quran3:182 This is because of that (evil) which your hands have sent before you. And certainly, Allâh is never unjust to (His) slaves.
Still, God’s mercy is very important because humans are weak by nature and if God’s mercy was not there we could not have been guided towards faith, because, it is said in one hadith that if God likes the deed and faith of person and wants to do good to him, He guides him to religion and make him successfull (heaven). As quote below,
Quran 4:27 Allâh wishes to accept your repentance, but those who follow their lusts, wish that you (believers) should deviate tremendously away from the Right Path. 28. Allâh wishes to lighten (the burden) for you; and man was created weak .
[Sahih Bukhari Book1 Volume 3 Hadith No. 73
Narrated Muawiya: I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “If Allah wants to do good to a person, He makes him comprehend the religion … ].
II.
You wrote:
I DERIDED PROPHETS AND QUOTED:
1. About Jesus you wrote, “Jesus(pbuh) BROKE the law of Moses”
2. About David you wrote, “It is not similar to David’s story where Michal is pointing out HIS SHAMEFUL ACT”
3. About Paul you wrote, “ANOTHER TRUTH ABOUT APOSTLE PAUL.
I HAVE ALREADY PROVED HOW HE SETS PERFECTLY INTO THE CRITERIA FOR JUDGING THE FALSE PROPHET.” (Just in case you say that Paul is not a prophet remember same is applicable to Muhammad from my point of view!)
My response:
1. Did I say that Jesus broke the law? I exposed , that you believe so, and you gave excuse for such act .
Page 2 comment 10:II, you wrote,
“ To save from the Law, which was brought by Moses, and give us a New Law—“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” (John 13:34)
“For not the hearers of the Law are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.” (Rom.2:13)
In order to be come righteous how much of the Law needs to be followed?
“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” (Jam.2:10)
“Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in God’s sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.” (Rom.3:20) “
So, who is a liar?
2. About David,…. this argument took place after your comment. Don’t misquote.
There also, I gave proof.
3. Regarding Apostle Paul: We don’t consider him prophet (as you said) rather he fits perfectly in the description of false prophet.
So, after all these efforts, you got these trivial arguments to counter my challenge. I feel pity on you. And, it is only a proof that you wrongly accused me of deriding prophets. May God gives you the courage to face the truth.
III. You wrote:
1. You wrote boastfully, “Brother, We don’t believe prophet of God will do this, even if it is 5000 yrs back. He was the model to society. This shows your sickness. You peoples are deriding prophets with such beliefs.”
Let’s see what you guys made of true prophets of the Bible with the help of the ‘terrifying spirit!’ For example, you made the prophet Abraham to commit shirk, the most serious sin! Yet, you have guts to talk about Noah’s drunkenness!
“When the night covered him over, He (Abraham) saw a star: He said: “This is my Lord.” But when it set, He said: “I love not those that set.” (Quran 6:74)
“When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: “This is my Lord.” But when the moon set, He said: “unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray.” (Quran 6:75)
“When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said: “This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all).” But when the sun set, he said: “O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to God.” (Quran 6”76)
According to the above silly Arabic poems Abraham was made an idolater for some time! How about that time, was he a model for you to commit shirk?! How long will you live in this hypocrisy? (Readers, he will live in this hypocrisy as long as he continues to believe in Islam)
My response:
Is it the level of your understanding? These are the one of the strongest verse against shirk, but by your illogic and mis-presentation, you are giving just opposite meaning to it.
Quran 6:74-78, You did little mistake in quoting.
Here Abraham (a prophet of God), is talking and explaining to his disbeliever father and his peoples, who believe everything to be god. And in first example he is saying see this star is my lord and in the morning he showed to them see what happened to our God gone with night. Then similarly, he said moon and sun see these gods, with time they set and vanished. But, at the end he clears that he can’t believe them as God (and he already gave them the logic in above verses in style) and he is free from their sin of shirk.
Quran6:
74. And (remember) when Ibrâhim (Abraham) said to his father Azar: “Do you take idols as âlihâ (gods)? Verily, I see you and your people in manifest error. ”
75. Thus did we show Ibrâhim (Abraham) the kingdom of the heavens and the earth that he be one of those who have Faith with certainty.
76. When the night covered him over with darkness he saw a star. He said: “This is my lord.” But when it set, he said: “I like not those that set.”
77. When he saw the moon rising up, he said: “This is my lord.” But when it set, he said: “Unless my Lord guides me, I shall surely be among the erring people.”
78. When he saw the sun rising up, he said: “This is my lord. This is greater.” But when it set, he said: “O my people! I am indeed free from all that you join as partners in worship with Allâh.
Where is the shirk? May God give you the courage to face the truth.
It is your Bible, which is deriding prophets (e.g. Solomon) with such sin like shirk (making partner with God).
1 Kings11: 9And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, 10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go AFTER OTHER GODS: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
2. God has not prohibited drinking completely without qualification. All the way from Adam and Noah and Moses and Solomon to Jesus it is not prohibited. If you think otherwise please show me where and how. Don’t write some strong words just because you think you need to write them. Instead of showing your emotionalism cool down and used your brain.
3. As far as the drunken status of Noah is concerned that’s what happened to him and that’s what is reported. Here the Bible is not saying whether it is right or wrong, but it is reporting what has happened. Just because you don’t like that account that doesn’t mean God’s word should not contain that account! By the way, prophets are also humans and had limitations and failed at times in their exemplary lives. Reporting of such failures doesn’t make God’s word non-God’s word! …….
4…..
5. ..…
My response:
Yes, many a thing has been prohibited stage wise. It might not be prohibited in the beginning (even though not a good act), but with time it became prohibited and even opposite is true till the religion was confirmed. (Many a thing of the past was changed with time even during the times of earlier prophets like Jesus. ). Yes it was allowed to drink but still it was thought to be bad act especially if one drinks and start dancing naked. This was never acceptable as this can never be a good act or even O.K. act. There are many things which God has showed to us in our instinct that they are wrong or right. These are known to all peoples even if he never saw a prophet like tribes of forest. Even they consider killing or stealing as wrong and charity or saving as good. No need for anybody to tell about them, but here is very beautiful verse of Quran which supports me.
Quran 91: 7. And by Nafs (Adam or a person or a soul, etc.), and Him Who perfected him in proportion;
8. Then He SHOWED HIM WHAT IS WRONG FOR HIM AND WHAT IS RIGHT FOR HIM;
Then Quran praises prophets and confirm their righteous character
Quran 37: 79. Salâmun (peace) be upon Nûh (Noah) (from Us) among the ‘Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!” 80. Verily, thus We reward the Muhsinûn (good-doers).
Quran 6: 84. And We bestowed upon him Ishâque (Isaac) and Ya’qûb (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nûh (Noah), and among his progeny Dawûd (David), Sulaimân (Solomon), Ayub (Job), Yûsuf (Joseph), Mûsa (Moses), and Hârûn (Aaron). Thus do We reward the gooddoers. 85. And Zakariyâ (Zachariya), and Yahya (John) and ‘Iesa (Jesus) and Iliyâs (Elias), each one of them was of the righteous. 86. And Ismâ’il (Ishmael) and Al-Yas’â (Elisha), and Yûnus (Jonah) and Lout (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the ‘Alamîn (mankind and jinns) (of their times).
Quran 3:39 Then the angels called him, while he was standing in prayer in Al-Mihrâb (a praying place or a private room), (saying): “Allâh gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John), confirming (believing in) the Word from Allâh [i.e. the creation of ‘Iesa (Jesus), the Word from Allâh (Be! – and he was!)], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women , a Prophet, from among the righteous.”
Quran 68:4 And verily, you (O Muhammad Sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe Wa Sallam) are on an exalted standard of character.
Quran 33:21 Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.
I think these many quotations were enough to prove the prophets were best of the characters, righteous and model for the society. Not the typical drunkards, rapist and deceiver as Bible projected them.
Can you tell me what the role of prophets was, if not guidance and conveying the message of God? If it is guidance, they must have Islamic way of character of prophets not typical drunkard or studs (of Bible).
IV. You wrote:
1. Here is the hadith I quoted: Muslim-Drinks-3753: ”We were with the Prophet of Allah, and He was thirsty, and a man said: O prophet of Allah, Do you want to drink wine? Prophet of Allah said: Yes. The Man went to get the wine. The Prophet of Allah said: Make it Intoxicated. And He (Muhammad) Drank”
In my last posting I forgot to give you the source details of this hadith. Here they are:
This hadith and its number are in Arabic. It can be found on the Arabic website of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia: Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Endowments, Da‘wah and Guidance
(http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=4824). Since the website doesn’t give the English translation of the hadith, for whatever reasons, I took its English translation from a website called “The Spittoon” (http://www.spittoon.org/archives/7083)
2. By the way, this hadith is not my production. As far as the translation is concerned since I don’t know Arabic I quote others. In this particular quote if the translation is not perfect I apologize to my Muslim friends for that.
3. For argument sake,….
My response:
By the way, your link to this Islamic Arabic website does not open to the hadith as you told, rather to the index page. Here also hadith no. 3753 of Sahih Muslim does not prove your allegation rather it is the same what I said for English. So, what you said was a lie propagated by you if not invented. In future, you must cross check the references before projecting them . Don’t give link to a page of any site which you yourself can’t understand.
Quran 49: 6. O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done.
Your another link is nothing but denoting view of “a rebellious evil person”.
V. You wrote:
…..Some observations …
David was wearing a linen ephod!
David was leaping and dancing (the Bible did not say David was leaping and dancing nakedly!).
Michal looked out of the window.
Michal saw David leaping and dancing. (NOT Michal saw David leaping and dancing naked)
Michal despised him in her heart. (This is why she spoke of David derogatorily by exaggerating what he had done before the LORD. When David realized that Michal was not participating actively in the celebrations before the LORD he had every reason to deal with her harshly. Moreover she started to comment negatively and accusing him. Here David was not in need of defending or denying his actions before Michal and give her a soothing explanation.)
My response:
I already gave you logic, where does this negate them? Late me paste them again here.
“2 Samuel 6: 20Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! 21And David said unto Michal, [It was] before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD. 22And I WILL YET BE MORE VILE than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour. 23Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death. KJV
Anybody can read the story and understand the truth which you tried to cover. Here Michal is saying what she saw, not telling the lie. Reason?
King David did not deny the allegation rather he did not like Michal pointing out his acts with his maids on the celebration day. Neither did the writer of this book deny this claim of Michal. Can you show me a verse where King David denied it as a lie. Rather it is opposite. King David justified his act, that he was made king, so he had right to celebrate and he overreacted and said that he would be even more vile than this in future and to the maid servants with whom she objected will no more be just a playgirl rather he will honor them (probably marry) and poor Michal was completely neglected for the rest of the life ( so she could not have any child unto the day of her death).
Readers can judge the reading skill of Mr. Christian Adil. Is it the way Prophet behaves (according to Bible)? ”…..
I gave some good logic.
1. Why David did not reject her view?
2. Why David said:
“22And I WILL YET BE MORE VILE than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.”
And why?
“23Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.”
3. If it is not specifically mentioned the details of dance party, can it be said for sure, what she said was wrong? Any proof? Rather all logic and proof against this, specially, when David is known in Bible for such behaviors. (Bathseheba?)
Brother you can’t play with words and go away.
VI. You wrote: by mentioning my response,
“There is another absurd story (version) related to Prophet David in Bible.
He commits adultery with Bath-sheba the wife of Uriah:
2 SAMUEL 11:4 “And David sent messengers, and took her (Bathsheba); and she came in unto him, and he LAY (had intercourse) with her. . .
Then David wickedly caused the death of Uriah, the husband of Bath-sheba.
See. 2 SAMUEL 11:6-25
Now Quran comes to rescue Prophet David. According to Islam prophets were human with all human feelings and limitations but under strict guidance and inspiration of God as they were model for the society.
Quran 38 21. And has the news of the litigants reached you? When they climbed over the wall into (his) Mihrâb (a praying place or a private room,). 22. When they entered in upon Dâwûd (David), he was terrified of them, they said: “Fear not! (We are) two litigants, one of whom has wronged the other, therefore judge between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, and guide us to the Right Way.23. Verily, this my brother (in religion) has ninety nine ewes, while I have (only) one ewe, and he says: “Hand it over to me, and he overpowered me in speech.” 24. [Dâwûd (David)] said (immediately without listening to the opponent): “He has wronged you in DEMANDING your ewe in addition to his ewes. And, verily, many partners oppress one another, except those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and they are few.” And Dâwûd (David) guessed that WE HAVE TRIED HIM and he sought Forgiveness of his Lord, and he fell down prostrate and turned (to Allâh) in repentance. 25. So We forgave him that, and verily, for him is a near access to Us, and a good place of (final) return (Paradise).
The actual event as one clearly understands from the aforesaid verses of the Quran was – David had expressed his desire to Uriah (or whatever be the name of the man) that he should divorce his wife as David wanted her for himself. And because David was a king, his request put Uriah in a helpless situation feeling compelled to yield. At this time, before Uriah could act as David had desired, two righteous men of the nation suddenly appeared in the presence of David and presented their problem which (in terms of violation of justice) was similar to the story of David and Uriah. On hearing it, David gave his decision as king, asserting that the man with “99 ewes” had wronged the other man who with one ewe. Soon after, his conscience made him realize his violation when he became aware that this incident was a reminder to him of his own act of injustice (As David already had many wives and he wanted to add one more to them). David immediately repented, fell down prostrate before God Almighty and reversed his decision. On the basis of his sincere repentance, David was granted forgiveness by the Divine Power and his status remained unaffected. On accepting his repentance, Quran 38:26 is also a warning to Prophet David from God Almighty along with giving him the good news of exalting his rank, being evidence of the fact that David never again stumbled into similar temptations or errors arising from personal desires.
So, David, a human (and prophet) got a wrong desire but God protected and guided him. He remained righteous, but Bible made him a rapist and deceiver.
Who is deriding prophets, Bible or Quran?”
THEN YOU SAID,
1. If God chooses to record the sins of the prophets that is objectionable to your brain. The way you made the recording of the sins of David in the Bible equal to “Bible made him a rapist and deceiver” shows us how Islam has corrupted your mind. It’s no wonder only Islam can do that!
2. The one who reads the story of David in the Quran should be left wondering with many questions and confusion.
What was David’s wrong? Why did David have to ask forgiveness? What was it that David repented of?
These are the simple but important questions regarding David in this context. The so-called Allah’s word got no clue to offer.
My response:
1. Muslim can’t believe their prophets would be rapist and deceiver. You believe and follow them. What else excuse you need to hide your activity.
2. Because David DEMANDED for this (his wife) and created problem for him(? Uriah) and failed the test of Lord. Therefore he asked for forgiveness.
So, according to you, the further story has any clue to your problem. Brother, that is just the continuation of this story (2 Samuel Chapters 12). But, where did God punish David? God punished Bathsheba and that baby, by killing him (the baby) and giving David a fresh baby.
I already told you not to quote from unauthentic sources. Instead, you did the same i.e. you quoted from book of historians esp. the book is refuted as proof of tradition (Hadith). O.K. can you give me the exact chain of narrator of this story in Tabari. And as far as Tabari is concerned he wrote the story as he heard from peoples, honestly, but mentioned in the book itself that there are many weakness in tradition and could not provide narrator in many cases which is a must to verify a hadith. Also in many instances scholars mention the hadith and tell that it is a weak hadith only to make us know that this is a fabrication. You can see hadith books even from Sihah sittah like Tirmidhi or Sunnan Abu dawud or Ibn Majah, scholars have kept the weak tradition in the book with the mention in places as it is a weak hadith (mostly lie). It does not degrade the authors rather show their honesty and dedication to pass the correct information (within their limit)
If you can’t control this and want to keep quoting from unauthentic sources, please don’t debate with me. If you can’t quote from AUTHENTIC SOURCES as MUSLIMS believe and proved, you have no right to argue on the matters related to Muslim. Please control your hypocrisy.
Later, some of your disciple may consider you as historian and started quoting from your books (suppose you write)or even from any muslim author. It can’t be acceptable to Muslims even if you or your disciple love them. It has to go through verification for authentication. Nobody can lie and escape in Islam.
I gave you the reason why MUSLIMS don’t consider books of historian as source of knowledge for Islam. By the way the story you presented is a known fabrication. So, I won’t accept it as argument. Brother, I told you in advance but I knew you can’t help it because your foundation is based on lies. May God Give you courage to face the Truth.
You gave your argument:
“. By the way, regarding the quotes from Muslim historian Tabari you expressed some objections, which is typically the character of a whining and loosing child. I suggested a better way of debating without hurting each others religious feelings. You did not accept that and went on your way throwing insults and false accusations on god’s word, the bible. Now when you realize you are loosing ground you demand that i follow your criterion. You are behaving like a silly fellow. You believe blindly that Quran is Allah’s word, Muhammad is Allah’s prophet and hadiths such as Bukhari, Muslim etc. are authentic. Did I ever agree to that? Or when did I agree to quote only these ones in our postings? I did offer something along these lines, but like a typical Muslim apologist you rejected it and now started to whine, weep, cry and complain! HOW CAN YOU EXPECT ME TO QUOTE ONLY WHAT YOU EXPECT ME TO QUOTE WHEN YOU HAVE REFUSED TO ABIDE BY SAME PRINCIPLES? So far I was quoting from these as they are readily available to me. As I am expanding the study of Islam I am getting access to wider Islamic sources from pious Muslims and that’s why I am quoting even from them wherever appropriate. (Readers, please note that I am not quoting here anti-Muslims or liberal Muslims, but pious Muslims.) ”
My response to yours (in CAPITALS):
1. “HOW CAN YOU EXPECT ME TO QUOTE ONLY WHAT YOU EXPECT ME TO QUOTE WHEN YOU HAVE REFUSED TO ABIDE BY SAME PRINCIPLES? “
Did I refuse to quote you from the authentic sources according to your belief? So, it means probably you don’t believe in your Bible totally. I challenge you to give one proof where I quoted from BOOKS you don’t believe to be correct.
2. “AS I AM EXPANDING THE STUDY OF ISLAM I AM GETTING ACCESS TO WIDER ISLAMIC SOURCES FROM PIOUS MUSLIMS AND THAT’S WHY I AM QUOTING EVEN FROM THEM WHEREVER APPROPRIATE.”
Brother, you are again wrong. Christian Apologetics read Tabari as one of the first few books of Muslim sources (because they get many weak tradition inside to fulfill their desire), even before they read Bible and mostly they never read Quran except to confirm their quotations.
3. “YOU BELIEVE BLINDLY THAT QURAN IS ALLAH’S WORD, MUHAMMAD IS ALLAH’S PROPHET AND HADITHS SUCH AS BUKHARI, MUSLIM ETC. ARE AUTHENTIC. DID I EVER AGREE TO THAT? OR WHEN DID I AGREE TO QUOTE ONLY THESE ONES IN OUR POSTINGS?”
Again wrong. We don’t believe them blindly. We have reasons to believe. We have the originals plus the chain of narrators quoting the originals plus biography of the chain of narrators (to verify them) plus we have wholly preserved Quran (through memorization) to study and investigate them (Hadiths). Now, can you tell me what do you have for your holy book, leave the other story books, to make you believe Bible as original. Yes, you have no memorization system, so totally dependent on material. And, you have thousands of original manuscripts and amazingly no two are duplicate. Even you accepted about such problems of alteration in the materials of Bible. You have no system of chain of narrator to verify the claim of original. How come you utter such rubbish.
So, who told you to agree? But if you want to give me proof related to my faith it should be from the books we faith, the way I do to you. It is an etiquette. Yes, you even did not agree for etiquette, that you will never lie. Probably that is the reason you are busy lying since first comment. May God guide you to the truth.
VII. YOU WROTE:
QUOTING MY COMMENT IN COMMENT 49,
“How about your Muhammad? Look at your own Quran’s record of what has been said of him: “And they say: “O you (Muhammad) to whom the Dhikr (the Qur’an) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man. Why do you not bring angels to us if you are of the truthful ones?” S. 15:6 Hilali-Khan. The so-called Allah’s word records that Muhammad was declared by others as a MAD man.” My response: This is another incident where you tried to prove your point by “turning off the light”. Now I will turn the lights on. Bad peoples usually declare good people as mad man, …..it does not make the man, mad.”
YOU INTENTIONALLY LEFT THE NEXT FEW LINES LET ME INCLUDE AS IN ORIGINAL.
….. it does not make the man, mad. It is not similar to David’s story where Michal is pointing out his shameful act. Because, he himself never denied neither did the author deny, instead he over reacted and proved her point to be correct (as we saw above). In these verses of Quran, prophet was called mad man by people, but in the verses to follow, IT IS CLEARED THAT IT WAS FALSE ALLEGATION RATHER A TYPE OF MOCK BY THE PEOPLES TO THEIR PROPHET.
Quran 15:11 And never came a Messenger to them but they did mock him.
Brother you can’t misquote and escape. Readers can see your deception, once the light is on.
AND THEN YOU WROTE:
1. You are right, ‘bad peoples usually declare good people as mad man, it does not make the man, mad.’ However, mad people sometimes think they are mad…..
My response: Give the proof not your ill-thinking.
2. The opponents of Muhammad did believe and say that he was a madman. Although Muhammad through his alleged inspired VERSES DENIED IT IN THE ABOVE VERSES, initially he himself thought that he was a ‘madman’ or going mad….
THEN YOU QUOTED FROM TABARI WHICH I DON’T INCLUDE HERE (REASONS , AS I MENTIONED ABOVE) .
“But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, “O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah’s Apostle in truth” whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home.” (Sahi Bukhari V9, B87, N.111)
My response:
So, what is the problem with this hadith? Where is it said he became mad. It is only said he was very disturbed (metaphorically, he felt like throwing himself from mountain) by such feelings in the beginning, and after getting the soothing message he was relieved, same as we discussed in the comments before.
What happened to your senses? May God save you.
VIII. You wrote and pasted my comment:
“Regarding prophet Isiah: You said “…The prophet went about barefoot and naked (in his undergarment) as a shocking means of gaining the attention of the people to the severity of his prediction….”.
Brother, last week I saw a group of some Apologists walking on road naked with their buttocks uncovered and barefoot. Don’t be angry, I probably mean they were naked under their garments. Even though I gave the beautiful reasoning that they were naked under their garments, still it sound offensive. How could God use such offensive language (if not in literal sense) for his prophets in His holy book? But, it was more than the use of language and it did mean naked only, not naked in his undergarment. Reason:
a. God forgot to say that Isiah was naked in his under garment which was inspired to you people. No where it is mentioned so.
b. Why did the Lord used word ‘SHAME’ for such act when He himself ordered his prophet to do so and predicted the same for the king of Assyria doing to his captives.
Isiah 20:3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant ISAIAH HATH WALKED NAKED and barefoot three years [for] a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia; 4So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, NAKED and barefoot, even WITH [THEIR] BUTTOCKS UNCOVERED, to the SHAME of Egypt.
Your reading ability is seriously doubtful. Now you tried another covering up by “turning the light off”. You quoted from Quran and tried to prove it to be similar to the above act. But actually it is opposite. You quoted about Adam and Eve when they ate from the prohibited tree , their test got finished and were made ready to be sent to earth and made as spouse for one another and their sexual desire was set started which in the language of Quran “ their raiment was stripped” . Is it the same as one getting naked in public to get attention? It is no where written that they were made naked with buttocks uncovered (language of Bible). Even if taken in literal sense (which is not the case even according to Bible for Adam and Eve in this scenario), it is not a shameful act as they were spouse (first spouse on the Earth) and was private in their act, as there was no body to see them. You mean all the spouses in their privacy, if get naked, it is a shameful act and it is similar to naked females rallying on road of America for certain demands such as wild life conservation (to get attention probably inspired from Bible, as we saw above ).
Isn’t it amazing and hypocritical? I think this much light was enough to expose your deception. Our intelligent readers can judge the lie and deception.”
Then, your response:
1. Here again you displayed your corrupt mind under Islamic influence. Prophet Isaiah was ordered by God to be a sign to others in a particular way. That is offensive language to you?! You are telling me that Almighty God cannot order His servants to do what He wants them to do. But in the same breath you believe that it is divine order if Muhammad says ‘bow down to the black stone.’ You expect your Allah to command his prophets only what you think is acceptable or what Muhammad says is right. That is your ignorance and heightened perversion. By the way, if a person is fully naked then you don’t have to say that person is walking with buttocks uncovered!
My response:
You mean God will say his prophet to walk naked for getting attention. Isn’t it? Ha.. Haa.
Who told you that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) bowed to black stone? I read, He kissed the stone, sometimes pointed towards that stone with his finger or stick but never bowed to that stone. Yes, we can keep certain things like stone in front to guard our area of salat (prayer) from mistake of others or we can point towards a direction in salat even if pillar or stone is in front of you but that never amounts to bowing to it.
Don’t you think Bible also allows this to have direction for bowing in prayer .
Psalms 138:2 I will WORSHIP TOWARD THY HOLY TEMPLE, and praise thy name for thy loving kindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Brother, we can’t bow to anybody whether son, or cow, except to one and only Allah. I think it is your, yet another cheating.
Yes, if you happen to see a person from back, esp. buttocks, there is no abnormality in saying that You saw that person naked with buttocks uncovered (i.e. to stress your point).
2. You justified your own book by saying, “You quoted about Adam and Eve when they ate from the prohibited tree , their test got finished and were made ready to be sent to earth and made as spouse for one another and their sexual desire was set started which in the language of Quran “ their raiment was stripped” . Is it the same as one getting naked in public to get attention? It is no where written that they were made naked with buttocks uncovered (language of Bible). Even if taken in literal sense (which is not the case even according to Bible for Adam and Eve in this scenario), it is not a shameful act as they were spouse (first spouse on the Earth) and was private in their act, as there was no body to see them.”
Here is what your Quran says, “O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their SHAME: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.” (Quran 7:27). But looks like you know better than your Q Allah! You say, ‘it is not shameful act as they were spouse and was private in their act, as there was no body to see them.” But your Q Allah says, “he got (Satan) your parents…stripping them of their raiment, to expose their SHAME.” If you are right then Q Allah is wrong for he says that ‘they were exposed of their SHAME!’
My response:
So, you are trying to make “shame” mean as their “shameful act”. Isn’t it? Sorry brother, your lack of Arabic knowledge is a big problem. Let me show you what you don’t want to see. Let me quote the same from another standard translation i.e. Muhsin Khan (or Hilali as you prefer to say) which is more literal in translation than other translations.
Quran 7:27O Children of Adam! Let not Shaitân (Satan) deceive you, as he got your parents [Adam and Hawwa (Eve)] out of Paradise, stripping them of their raiments, to show them their PRIVATE PARTS. Verily, he and Qabîluhu (his soldiers from the jinns or his tribe) see you from where you cannot see them. Verily, We made the Shayâtin (devils) Auliyâ’ (protectors and helpers) for those who believe not.
Here, “shame” means “private parts”, yes, think properly even this word (shame) can be used . And this proves my point [i.e. their sexual desire was set started which in the language of Quran “ their raiment was stripped”]. If you need further Arabic details, tell me until you get satisfied or you start abusing me and my faith.
THEN YOU SAID,
# But you have a good point in stating, ‘it is not same as one getting naked in public.’ Wait a minute, for that purpose let us turn to your Islamic stupid stories now:
“Narrated Aisha
Zayd ibn Harithah came to Medina ……………..
Tirmidhi transmitted it.” (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 1220- ALIM CD-ROM Version)
……….
“Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah:
While Allah’s Apostle was carrying stones (along) with the people of Mecca for (the building of) the Ka’ba wearing an Izar (waist-sheet cover), his uncle Al-‘Abbas said to him, “O my nephew! (It would be better) if you take off your Izar and put it over your shoulders underneath the stones.” So he took off his Izar and put it over his shoulders, but he fell unconscious AND SINCE THEN HE HAD NEVER BEEN SEEN NAKED. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 360)”
(Readers, what should we call all this on the part of Muslims like M Comforter? STUPIDITY? HYPOCRISY? SHAMELESSNESS? WICKEDNESS? OR ISLAMIC HONESTY! You decide.) #
My response:
First hadith you quoted from Tirmidhi is either a lie or probably a weak hadith and not present in authentic collection of Tirmidhi. You can check Alim CD for windows version 4.5. In my book of Tirmidhi (Sahih; authentic) also this number does not exist. In short, I would not accept any fabricated hadith as argument, even if you feel like jumping from mountain.
Now regarding second hadith
Let me give another version of the same hadith
Sahih Muslim Book3 Hadith 670,
Jabir b. ‘Abdullah reported: When the Ka’ba was constructed the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abbas went and lifted stones. Abbas said to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him): Place your lower garment on your shoulder (so that you may protect yourself from the roughness and hardness of stones). He (the Holy Prophet) did this, but fell down upon the ground in a state of unconciousness and his eyes were turned towards the sky. He then stood up and said: My lower garment, my lower garment; and this wrapper was tied around him. In the hadith transmitted by Ibn Rafi’, there is the word:” On his neck” and he did not say:” Upon his shoulder.”
See in both of hadiths the the last narrator is the same. And there is difference in few words, it happens, when two peoples narrate the same story heard from same person.
Probably, this story is of his childhood and he was busy helping family members in Kaba construction,( because his uncle Abbas did not accept Islam after the battle of Badr i.e. until nearly 20 years of prophet hood, and he was even captured during that battle). He tied his lower garment over neck to avoid injury on neck and shoulder while carrying stone (as suggested by uncle). It was not kept on shoulder, as felt in other version of this story. And even here it is added at the end that “on his neck not shoulder”. Another proof that after he stood up from state of unconsciousness, he was saying about his lower garment i.e. My lower garment , My lower garment , only to find it tied around him, so it was tied to neck only. So, it is not mentioned in hadith that he got naked. Only problem here is, THE WORDS OF NARRATOR that he was never seen naked after that. It is his misunderstanding while other narrator did not mention such view. Probably he got such thinking because he felt, he (prophet pbuh) kept the lower garment literally over shoulder, as said by his uncle and mentioned in this version of story.
Is this story parallel to story of Drunken prophets exhibiting in public (Bible). Actually speaking it is opposite of what you claim. Here prophet even in that age and that condition of unconsciousness was so much concerned about his dress.
Now let me reverse the barrel on you.
(Readers, what should we call all this on the part of Mr. Christian Adil? STUPIDITY? HYPOCRISY? SHAMELESSNESS? WICKEDNESS? OR …………! You decide.)
But here is difference in our ways. Try to find out by comparing with his similar comment above.
3. How about your final so-called illiterate prophet portraying prophet Moses as NAKED in public?
“Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “(The Prophet) Moses was a shy person and used to cover his body completely because of his extensive shyness. One of the children of Israel hurt him by saying, ‘He covers his body in this way only because of some defect in his skin, either leprosy or scrotal hernia, or he has some other defect.’ Allah wished to clear Moses of what they said about him, so one day while Moses was in seclusion, he took off his clothes and put them on a stone and started taking a bath. When he had finished the bath, he moved towards his clothes so as to take them, but the stone took his clothes and fled; Moses picked up his stick and ran after the stone saying, ‘O stone! Give me my garment!’ Till he reached a group of Bani Israel WHO SAW HIM NAKED then, and found him the best of what Allah had created, and ALLAH CLEARED HIM OF WHAT THEY HAD ACCUSED HIM OF. The stone stopped there and Moses took and put his garment on and started hitting the stone with his stick. By Allah, the stone still has some traces of the hitting, three, four or five marks. This was what Allah refers to in His Saying:– “O you who believe! Be you not like those Who annoyed Moses, But Allah proved his innocence of that which they alleged, And he was honorable In Allah’s Sight.” (33.69) (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 616)
……….SIMILAR HADITHS
You believe these stupid stories and accept them with Islamic piousness? (Amazing) While these stupid stories portraying prophet of God being NAKED you don’t see any problem in that. Isn’t this heightened Islamic hypocrisy!
My response:
If somebody has certain mark on his genital region and it is the only proof which is decisive in a case and court orders for it’s verification and authorized people see his genital region and testify. Do you mean that man was indecent because he showed his genitals to others.
Or, Judge was indecent by asking for this. Or, would you call that man as naked man because of what Judge did to him?
What do you call this? A necessity or exhibitionism?
Opposite to your claim, Moses was projected as shy person not as drunken naked stud of Bible. And even then (after being alleged) he did not show his “shame” (sorry, private parts) to peoples and God wanted to rescue his prophet from such taunting and helped him in this way, which he himself could have never done , out of his shyness. So, in brief this hadith says,
Moses was a very shy and righteous person, who out of his shyness tolerated the allegation. Can you still call Moses a naked man. If so, I have no problem in asking you to get yourself consulted to a psychiatrist. May God return back your senses.
IX. You quoted my comments:
“With such quality attributed to prophets they are bound to get rid of their prophet hood and I am sure at least in the case of Prophet Lot (as Quran saved him and we believe he was free from such lie). In one place, I said that it was regarding prophet Israel (Genesis 35:22), I never said prophet Israel committed that sin/ incest. Yes, it was his elder son who committed incest with his mother (father’s wife or concubine – in the language of Bible wife and concubine can be same e.g. see GENESIS 25:1 and I CHRONICLES 1:32). You gave a good reasoning that at that time it was not prohibited to have incest with mother, the law came much later. We don’t believe so. We can’t expect such act from any human leave the prophet and his family, to be a non sinful act, at any time whether before thousand years or more. I think even Bible agrees with me and even you too partially, because you said “The SIN of Ruben has been exposed in the Bible. As a result of this sin Ruben lost his position to Levi in God’s blessings.” Why he lost the position, if it was still not the sinful act? Similarly how could Prophet Lot (nauzbillah) perform incest with his daughters much before the appearance of law of Moses when it was still considered sin (as we saw above). Similarly how could Judah (father in law thinking going to whore) and Tamar (taking sweet revenge) commit such sinful acts. For what purpose Bible presents such story & what moral lesson is there? Probably a theme for x- graded movies or story books, certainly not of holy book of God.”
My response:
1. For the corrupt mind everything is corrupt, ………….followed by TYPICAL CHRISTIAN ADIL’S ABUSE .
My response:
May God guide you to decency in accepting truth.
2. a) You wrote under Islamic influence, “You gave a good reasoning that at that time it was not prohibited to have incest with mother, the law came much later.”..
Where did I say that “at that time it was not prohibited to have incest with mother” giving the impression that it was acceptable to have incest with mother? ……. (followed by TYPICAL CHRISTIAN ADIL’S ABUSE) …What I wrote was, “Again although INCEST OF THIS TYPE HAS BEEN FORBIDDEN IN THE ‘LAW OF MOSES,’ which came five hundred years after this incident, the Bible is not endorsing it but exposing it.” …….( followed by TYPICAL CHRISTIAN ADIL’S ABUSE ).
My response:
I think you are again trying to play with words. You are saying “incest of this type was prohibited in the LAW OF MOSES, and law of Moses came 500 years after this incident”. So, what does it mean? It is obvious that it does not apply to peoples before the law.
Now regarding your comment, “the Bible is not endorsing it but exposing it”. Where did I say Bible advised you to do this? I only said a holy book should have certain etiquettes and it should not give wrong image to follower, who may take it, that if prophets of God (having communication with God) could commit such sins and escape, why don’t we try it (after all we have double shelter, we are not prophets so accountability is also less plus somebody has committed suicide to save us). Isn’t it an important reason, Christian world is deeply involved in drinking, exhibitionism, illegal sex involving incest?
Is it not a confusion for people that the person whom God selected for conveying message and guidance, himself involved in all those? Yes, prophets were humans but they were best of the human of the time with best of the character and strict guidance of God. So, if some prophets did mistake or minor sins , it could be acceptable considering their human nature but Prophets committing adultery and deceiving and killing people to cover his sin is surely not acceptable by any logic. Even Bible says.
Bible – 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
c) By the way, don’t try to equate father’s concubine with own mother in every sense with the help of Islamic reasoning. ….
My response:
Did I try to equate word “concubine” and “wife”. I quoted your Bible which probably you believe to be an authentic source. If you don’t believe particular chapter to be true, please inform me, inshallah I will avoid them.
Genesis 25:1 Then again ABRAHAM TOOK A WIFE, and her name [was] Keturah.
1 Chronicles 1:32 2Now the sons of Keturah, ABRAHAM’S CONCUBINE: she bare …….
X. You wrote:
1. & 2.
Your boasting is worth testing. If you think that’s what you can do, first please answer these questions:
a. Could and did prophets sin? If no, then, where does your so-called Allah’s word (Quran) say that prophets cannot sin or did not sin?
b. Where does the Quran say that God will not expose the sins of the prophets or God’s word does not record such things?
c. According to your Quran or Muhammad or Islam or you, what are the acceptable accounts or God’s word can contain and what it cannot contain and why?
d. According to the Quran or you what kind of language (literal or figurative) or non-offensive language is acceptable for God’s word and what not and why?
I hope with your answer we can do some meaningful and interesting discussion of the Bible and Quran.
………………….
My response:
Let me quote few verse from Bible and Quran to explain to you that it is not only Islamic logic rather endorsement of Bible as well, of my claims that
a)PROPHETS were righteous and sent to us to guide peoples and were of best of characters and model for the society &
b)HOLY BOOKS are plain, without crookedness, for guidance of people (of course by giving good examples not by showing blue films that also of prophets; brother even in present society we will not show our children X graded movies to teach them or guide them instead we will show some inspiring movies to boost their morale and guide them ).
REGARDING PROPHETS:
Exodus 7: 1And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. 2Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
Numbers 11: 29And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD’S people were prophets, [and] that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Genesis 15:6 (God to Abram) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
2 Samuel22: 21 (David is acknowledging God) The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me. 22For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
Luke 23: 47 (peoples saying about Jesus) Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.
John 16: 7 (Jesus about prophet Mohammad) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, HE WILL REPROVE THE WORLD OF SIN, AND OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND OF JUDGMENT: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me
Quran 19:
41. And mention in the Book (the Qur’ân) Ibrâhim (Abraham). Verily! He was a man of truth, a Prophet
51. And mention in the Book (this Qur’ân) Mûsa (Moses). Verily! He was chosen and he was a Messenger (and) a Prophet.
54. And mention in the Book (the Qur’ân) Ismâ’il (Ishmael). Verily! He was true to what he promised, and he was a Messenger, (and) a Prophet.
Quran 37: 79. Salâmun (peace) be upon Nûh (Noah) (from Us) among the ‘Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!” 80. Verily, thus We reward the Muhsinûn (good-doers).
Quran 6: 84. And We bestowed upon him Ishâque (Isaac) and Ya’qûb (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nûh (Noah), and among his progeny Dawûd (David), Sulaimân (Solomon), Ayub (Job), Yûsuf (Joseph), Mûsa (Moses), and Hârûn (Aaron). Thus do We reward the gooddoers. 85. And Zakariyâ (Zachariya), and Yahya (John) and ‘Iesa (Jesus) and Iliyâs (Elias), each one of them was of the righteous. 86. And Ismâ’il (Ishmael) and Al-Yas’â (Elisha), and Yûnus (Jonah) and Lout (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the ‘Alamîn (mankind and jinns) (of their times).
Quran 3:39 Then the angels called him, while he was standing in prayer in Al-Mihrâb (a praying place or a private room), (saying): “Allâh gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John), confirming (believing in) the Word from Allâh [i.e. the creation of ‘Iesa (Jesus), the Word from Allâh (Be! – and he was!)], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women , a Prophet, from among the righteous.”
Quran 68:4 And verily, you (O Muhammad Sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe Wa Sallam) are on an exalted standard of character.
Quran 33:21 Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.
REGARDING HOLY BOOK:
Bible – 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Bible-2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Quran 18: 1. All the praises and thanks be to Allâh, Who has sent down to His slave (Muhammad) the Book (the Qur’ân), and has not placed therein any crookedness.
Quran 6: 154. Then, We gave Mûsa (Moses) the Book [the Taurât (Torah)], to complete (Our Favour) upon those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail and a guidance and a mercy that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
Quran 7: 52. Certainly, We have brought to them a Book (the Qur’ân) which We have explained in detail with knowledge, – a guidance and a mercy to a people who believe.
Quran 16: 89. And (remember) the Day when We shall raise up from every nation a witness against them from amongst themselves. And We shall bring you (O Muhammad ) as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the Book (the Qur’an) as an exposition of everything, a guidance, a mercy, and glad tidings for those who have submitted themselves (to Allâh as Muslims).
So, now we can see your questions:
a) Were the prophets sinner or righteous? We saw God selected righteous people for that purpose. And I must remind you, I never said prophets were angels and sinless. I said prophets were human, prone for sins but under strict guidance from God to give their peoples good moral, not typical drunken studs exhibiting nakedness (and attributing to God) and performing illegal sex, incest even openly (and attributing to God) and deceiving and killing people to cover his sins. And even praying to other gods (i.e. shirk).
1 kings 11:9 And the LORD was angry with SOLOMON, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, 10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that HE SHOULD NOT GO AFTER OTHER GODS: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
b) It is a logic that something which is there to guide people (i.e. Holy book) should not promote bad things by attributing those things to their models. Are these indecent materials in the book of God are guidance and mercy to us (to straighten us) or crookedness. I will quote a story of Bible tell me where it sets to righteousness or any of the criteria given by your Bible for it to be from God.
Bible-2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is]
(i) profitable for doctrine,
(ii) for reproof,
(iii) for correction,
(iv) for instruction in righteousness:
Read this story:
Genesis 38: 6And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name [was] Tamar. 7And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. 8And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. 9And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled [it] on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. 10And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also. 11Then said Judah to Tamar his daughter in law, Remain a widow at thy father’s house, till Shelah my son be grown: for he said, Lest peradventure he die also, as his brethren [did]. And Tamar went and dwelt in her father’s house.
12And in process of time the daughter of Shuah Judah’s wife died; and Judah was comforted, and went up unto his sheepshearers to Timnath, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite. 13And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep. 14And she put her widow’s garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which [is] by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife. 15When Judah saw her, he thought her [to be] an harlot; because she had covered her face. 16And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she [was] his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me? 17And he said, I will send [thee] a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give [me] a pledge, till thou send [it]? 18And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that [is] in thine hand. And he gave [it] her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him. 19And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood. 20And Judah sent the kid by the hand of his friend the Adullamite, to receive [his] pledge from the woman’s hand: but he found her not. 21Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where [is] the harlot, that [was] openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this [place]. 22And he returned to Judah, and said, I cannot find her; and also the men of the place said, [that] there was no harlot in this [place]. 23And Judah said, Let her take [it] to her, lest we be shamed: behold, I sent this kid, and thou hast not found her.
24And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she [is] with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. 25When she [was] brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these [are, am] I with child: and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose [are] these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff. 26And Judah acknowledged [them], and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.
Now reply my question, where do you set the sweet revenge of Tamar to his father in law.
Is this story of sweet revenge by Tamar,
profitable for doctrine,
for reproof,
for correction,
for instruction in righteousness ?
So, according to Bible itself these should not be the words inspired by God leave the Quran and logic aside.
c) & d) So, a book of God (both in content and language) should be to guide people, as we saw in quotation
It’s one week I pasted my response. It is double the time, I took to read, prepare, and post my answer. And the language is much milder when compared to others (esp. Mr. Adil). Yes, it is little long but there was no restriction in this regard (and I was restricted to topic) and after all it was accepted by your comment window. If I had made it in parts, different parts of comment which are interlinked could have been misplaced, and mistimed and the message would have lost its relevance (as happened in past). Of course my last paragraph is having few strong words, but it does happen if one has to face such bombardment of series of lies and abuses as my opponent has been doing thoroughly (as I have proved), after all I am human being. But, later, I thought I should not reply the harshness with similar harshness, as my Quran guides me.
Quran 41: 34. The good deed and the evil deed cannot be equal. Repel (the evil) with one which is better (i.e. Allâh ordered the faithful believers to be patient at the time of anger, and to excuse those who treat them badly), then verily! he, between whom and you there was enmity, (will become) as though he was a close friend.
So, herewith I did some minor changes in my last point (i.e. XXV) of this response and pasting again. Who knows I get some good friends from among my opponents.
If you feel there is something objectionable (before that you must see the comment to whom I am answering) in my comment, inform me. You must be specific to the point and the reason for this. I’d try to co-operate, Inshallah. The truth must be obvious.
May God guide me and you all to the truth.
I. You wrote:
1. According to your Quran, Allah sealed the hearts of people because “first they believed, then disbelieved.” I don’t see how this supports your desperate attempt to save Q Allah, because it is consistent with Quranic Allah’s character and preplan. From other verses in the Quran we see the reason why “first they believed, then disbelieved.” This “first they believed, then disbelieved” happens mainly because Quranic Allah had created them originally for hell (S. 7:179) and therefore he himself mislead them (4:88 ) to make sure that what he said would be fulfilled when they ultimately enter into hell (S. 32:13). Excellent example of deception! ……..
2. …..
3. …..
My response:
Let us see all these three verses in question. They are self explanatory and giving nearly same message.
Quran 63:3- That is because they believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed, so they understand not.
Here God is saying about hypocrite that because they believed and then disbelieved, God sealed their hearts i.e. God will no more guide them and they will make it to hell and they are responsible for this because they earned this because of their disbelief. And therefore, God has written their destination as hell.
Quran7:179 And surely, We have created many of the jinns and mankind for Hell. They have hearts wherewith they understand not, they have eyes wherewith they see not, and they have ears wherewith they hear not (the truth). They are like cattle, nay even more astray; those! They are the heedless ones.
Here God is saying about disbeliever [ Quran 7: 175 And recite (O Muhammad ) to them the story of him to whom We gave Our Ayât (proofs..), but HE THREW THEM AWAY, SO, SATAN FOLLOWED him up, and he became of those who went astray.]
And, God is describing about his such creations (disbelievers), that He gave them understanding, vision, and sense of hearing but they behaved inferior to those who got less of these faculties and they obeyed satan and denied God, such are the creation of God for whom God has written their destination as hell.
Quran 4:88 Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? ALLÂH HAS CAST THEM BACK (TO DISBELIEF) BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY HAVE EARNED. Do you want to guide him whom Allâh has made to go astray? And he whom Allâh has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance).
This is again the same message about hypocrite, here also God is saying that He made them go astray (allowed to go to disbelief or written his place for hell), because of their deed (what they earned). If God leaves anybody astray of course who can guide them.
So, in brief all these verses say the same thing:
a. Disbeliever (or hypocrite) earned their place (disbelief and hell) by following satan even after getting senses (but not using them in right way) and revelation from God (by rejecting it).
b. So, they became the one who were left (astray) by God (because of what they earned), and of course, if God will not guide a person, nobody can guide him.
c. And, of course God’s such creation is made for hell.
It must be clear to you that what it means, made for hell or written hell. Because God is all-knowing, even, future, He knows in advance the destination of the person. It might look to us that he was a very pious person but actually it was not so, his faith was weak and he (at least in the end) acted publicly according to his intention and he had made it to hell. But God knew it in advance and wrote about his deserving destination. Of course if he was good with deed as well as faith, he would have deserved the God’s mercy and made it to heaven because God does not do the injustice.
Quran3:182 This is because of that (evil) which your hands have sent before you. And certainly, Allâh is never unjust to (His) slaves.
Still, God’s mercy is very important because humans are weak by nature and if God’s mercy was not there we could not have been guided towards faith, because, it is said in one hadith that if God likes the deed and faith of person and wants to do good to him, He guides him to religion and make him successfull (heaven). As quote below,
Quran 4:27 Allâh wishes to accept your repentance, but those who follow their lusts, wish that you (believers) should deviate tremendously away from the Right Path. 28. Allâh wishes to lighten (the burden) for you; and man was created weak .
[Sahih Bukhari Book1 Volume 3 Hadith No. 73
Narrated Muawiya: I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “If Allah wants to do good to a person, He makes him comprehend the religion … ].
II.
You wrote:
I DERIDED PROPHETS AND QUOTED:
1. About Jesus you wrote, “Jesus(pbuh) BROKE the law of Moses”
2. About David you wrote, “It is not similar to David’s story where Michal is pointing out HIS SHAMEFUL ACT”
3. About Paul you wrote, “ANOTHER TRUTH ABOUT APOSTLE PAUL.
I HAVE ALREADY PROVED HOW HE SETS PERFECTLY INTO THE CRITERIA FOR JUDGING THE FALSE PROPHET.” (Just in case you say that Paul is not a prophet remember same is applicable to Muhammad from my point of view!)
My response:
1. Did I say that Jesus broke the law? I exposed , that you believe so, and you gave excuse for such act .
Page 2 comment 10:II, you wrote,
“ To save from the Law, which was brought by Moses, and give us a New Law—“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” (John 13:34)
“For not the hearers of the Law are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.” (Rom.2:13)
In order to be come righteous how much of the Law needs to be followed?
“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” (Jam.2:10)
“Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in God’s sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.” (Rom.3:20) “
So, who is a liar?
2. About David,…. this argument took place after your comment. Don’t misquote.
There also, I gave proof.
3. Regarding Apostle Paul: We don’t consider him prophet (as you said) rather he fits perfectly in the description of false prophet.
So, after all these efforts, you got these trivial arguments to counter my challenge. I feel pity on you. And, it is only a proof that you wrongly accused me of deriding prophets. May God gives you the courage to face the truth.
III. You wrote:
1. You wrote boastfully, “Brother, We don’t believe prophet of God will do this, even if it is 5000 yrs back. He was the model to society. This shows your sickness. You peoples are deriding prophets with such beliefs.”
Let’s see what you guys made of true prophets of the Bible with the help of the ‘terrifying spirit!’ For example, you made the prophet Abraham to commit shirk, the most serious sin! Yet, you have guts to talk about Noah’s drunkenness!
“When the night covered him over, He (Abraham) saw a star: He said: “This is my Lord.” But when it set, He said: “I love not those that set.” (Quran 6:74)
“When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: “This is my Lord.” But when the moon set, He said: “unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray.” (Quran 6:75)
“When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said: “This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all).” But when the sun set, he said: “O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to God.” (Quran 6”76)
According to the above silly Arabic poems Abraham was made an idolater for some time! How about that time, was he a model for you to commit shirk?! How long will you live in this hypocrisy? (Readers, he will live in this hypocrisy as long as he continues to believe in Islam)
My response:
Is it the level of your understanding? These are the one of the strongest verse against shirk, but by your illogic and mis-presentation, you are giving just opposite meaning to it.
Quran 6:74-78, You did little mistake in quoting.
Here Abraham (a prophet of God), is talking and explaining to his disbeliever father and his peoples, who believe everything to be god. And in first example he is saying see this star is my lord and in the morning he showed to them see what happened to our God gone with night. Then similarly, he said moon and sun see these gods, with time they set and vanished. But, at the end he clears that he can’t believe them as God (and he already gave them the logic in above verses in style) and he is free from their sin of shirk.
Quran6:
74. And (remember) when Ibrâhim (Abraham) said to his father Azar: “Do you take idols as âlihâ (gods)? Verily, I see you and your people in manifest error. ”
75. Thus did we show Ibrâhim (Abraham) the kingdom of the heavens and the earth that he be one of those who have Faith with certainty.
76. When the night covered him over with darkness he saw a star. He said: “This is my lord.” But when it set, he said: “I like not those that set.”
77. When he saw the moon rising up, he said: “This is my lord.” But when it set, he said: “Unless my Lord guides me, I shall surely be among the erring people.”
78. When he saw the sun rising up, he said: “This is my lord. This is greater.” But when it set, he said: “O my people! I am indeed free from all that you join as partners in worship with Allâh.
Where is the shirk? May God give you the courage to face the truth.
It is your Bible, which is deriding prophets (e.g. Solomon) with such sin like shirk (making partner with God).
1 Kings11: 9And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, 10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go AFTER OTHER GODS: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
2. God has not prohibited drinking completely without qualification. All the way from Adam and Noah and Moses and Solomon to Jesus it is not prohibited. If you think otherwise please show me where and how. Don’t write some strong words just because you think you need to write them. Instead of showing your emotionalism cool down and used your brain.
3. As far as the drunken status of Noah is concerned that’s what happened to him and that’s what is reported. Here the Bible is not saying whether it is right or wrong, but it is reporting what has happened. Just because you don’t like that account that doesn’t mean God’s word should not contain that account! By the way, prophets are also humans and had limitations and failed at times in their exemplary lives. Reporting of such failures doesn’t make God’s word non-God’s word! …….
4…..
5. ..…
My response:
Yes, many a thing has been prohibited stage wise. It might not be prohibited in the beginning (even though not a good act), but with time it became prohibited and even opposite is true till the religion was confirmed. (Many a thing of the past was changed with time even during the times of earlier prophets like Jesus. ). Yes it was allowed to drink but still it was thought to be bad act especially if one drinks and start dancing naked. This was never acceptable as this can never be a good act or even O.K. act. There are many things which God has showed to us in our instinct that they are wrong or right. These are known to all peoples even if he never saw a prophet like tribes of forest. Even they consider killing or stealing as wrong and charity or saving as good. No need for anybody to tell about them, but here is very beautiful verse of Quran which supports me.
Quran 91: 7. And by Nafs (Adam or a person or a soul, etc.), and Him Who perfected him in proportion;
8. Then He SHOWED HIM WHAT IS WRONG FOR HIM AND WHAT IS RIGHT FOR HIM;
Then Quran praises prophets and confirm their righteous character
Quran 37: 79. Salâmun (peace) be upon Nûh (Noah) (from Us) among the ‘Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!” 80. Verily, thus We reward the Muhsinûn (good-doers).
Quran 6: 84. And We bestowed upon him Ishâque (Isaac) and Ya’qûb (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nûh (Noah), and among his progeny Dawûd (David), Sulaimân (Solomon), Ayub (Job), Yûsuf (Joseph), Mûsa (Moses), and Hârûn (Aaron). Thus do We reward the gooddoers. 85. And Zakariyâ (Zachariya), and Yahya (John) and ‘Iesa (Jesus) and Iliyâs (Elias), each one of them was of the righteous. 86. And Ismâ’il (Ishmael) and Al-Yas’â (Elisha), and Yûnus (Jonah) and Lout (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the ‘Alamîn (mankind and jinns) (of their times).
Quran 3:39 Then the angels called him, while he was standing in prayer in Al-Mihrâb (a praying place or a private room), (saying): “Allâh gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John), confirming (believing in) the Word from Allâh [i.e. the creation of ‘Iesa (Jesus), the Word from Allâh (Be! – and he was!)], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women , a Prophet, from among the righteous.”
Quran 68:4 And verily, you (O Muhammad Sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe Wa Sallam) are on an exalted standard of character.
Quran 33:21 Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.
I think these many quotations were enough to prove the prophets were best of the characters, righteous and model for the society. Not the typical drunkards, rapist and deceiver as Bible projected them.
Can you tell me what the role of prophets was, if not guidance and conveying the message of God? If it is guidance, they must have Islamic way of character of prophets not typical drunkard or studs (of Bible).
IV. You wrote:
1. Here is the hadith I quoted: Muslim-Drinks-3753: ”We were with the Prophet of Allah, and He was thirsty, and a man said: O prophet of Allah, Do you want to drink wine? Prophet of Allah said: Yes. The Man went to get the wine. The Prophet of Allah said: Make it Intoxicated. And He (Muhammad) Drank”
In my last posting I forgot to give you the source details of this hadith. Here they are:
This hadith and its number are in Arabic. It can be found on the Arabic website of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia: Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Endowments, Da‘wah and Guidance
(http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=4824). Since the website doesn’t give the English translation of the hadith, for whatever reasons, I took its English translation from a website called “The Spittoon” (http://www.spittoon.org/archives/7083)
2. By the way, this hadith is not my production. As far as the translation is concerned since I don’t know Arabic I quote others. In this particular quote if the translation is not perfect I apologize to my Muslim friends for that.
3. For argument sake,….
My response:
By the way, your link to this Islamic Arabic website does not open to the hadith as you told, rather to the index page. Here also hadith no. 3753 of Sahih Muslim does not prove your allegation rather it is the same what I said for English. So, what you said was a lie propagated by you if not invented. In future, you must cross check the references before projecting them . Don’t give link to a page of any site which you yourself can’t understand.
Quran 49: 6. O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done.
Your another link is nothing but denoting view of “a rebellious evil person”.
V. You wrote:
…..Some observations …
David was wearing a linen ephod!
David was leaping and dancing (the Bible did not say David was leaping and dancing nakedly!).
Michal looked out of the window.
Michal saw David leaping and dancing. (NOT Michal saw David leaping and dancing naked)
Michal despised him in her heart. (This is why she spoke of David derogatorily by exaggerating what he had done before the LORD. When David realized that Michal was not participating actively in the celebrations before the LORD he had every reason to deal with her harshly. Moreover she started to comment negatively and accusing him. Here David was not in need of defending or denying his actions before Michal and give her a soothing explanation.)
My response:
I already gave you logic, where does this negate them? Late me paste them again here.
“2 Samuel 6: 20Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! 21And David said unto Michal, [It was] before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD. 22And I WILL YET BE MORE VILE than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour. 23Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death. KJV
Anybody can read the story and understand the truth which you tried to cover. Here Michal is saying what she saw, not telling the lie. Reason?
King David did not deny the allegation rather he did not like Michal pointing out his acts with his maids on the celebration day. Neither did the writer of this book deny this claim of Michal. Can you show me a verse where King David denied it as a lie. Rather it is opposite. King David justified his act, that he was made king, so he had right to celebrate and he overreacted and said that he would be even more vile than this in future and to the maid servants with whom she objected will no more be just a playgirl rather he will honor them (probably marry) and poor Michal was completely neglected for the rest of the life ( so she could not have any child unto the day of her death).
Readers can judge the reading skill of Mr. Christian Adil. Is it the way Prophet behaves (according to Bible)? ”…..
I gave some good logic.
1. Why David did not reject her view?
2. Why David said:
“22And I WILL YET BE MORE VILE than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.”
And why?
“23Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.”
3. If it is not specifically mentioned the details of dance party, can it be said for sure, what she said was wrong? Any proof? Rather all logic and proof against this, specially, when David is known in Bible for such behaviors. (Bathseheba?)
Brother you can’t play with words and go away.
VI. You wrote: by mentioning my response,
“There is another absurd story (version) related to Prophet David in Bible.
He commits adultery with Bath-sheba the wife of Uriah:
2 SAMUEL 11:4 “And David sent messengers, and took her (Bathsheba); and she came in unto him, and he LAY (had intercourse) with her. . .
Then David wickedly caused the death of Uriah, the husband of Bath-sheba.
See. 2 SAMUEL 11:6-25
Now Quran comes to rescue Prophet David. According to Islam prophets were human with all human feelings and limitations but under strict guidance and inspiration of God as they were model for the society.
Quran 38 21. And has the news of the litigants reached you? When they climbed over the wall into (his) Mihrâb (a praying place or a private room,). 22. When they entered in upon Dâwûd (David), he was terrified of them, they said: “Fear not! (We are) two litigants, one of whom has wronged the other, therefore judge between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, and guide us to the Right Way.23. Verily, this my brother (in religion) has ninety nine ewes, while I have (only) one ewe, and he says: “Hand it over to me, and he overpowered me in speech.” 24. [Dâwûd (David)] said (immediately without listening to the opponent): “He has wronged you in DEMANDING your ewe in addition to his ewes. And, verily, many partners oppress one another, except those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and they are few.” And Dâwûd (David) guessed that WE HAVE TRIED HIM and he sought Forgiveness of his Lord, and he fell down prostrate and turned (to Allâh) in repentance. 25. So We forgave him that, and verily, for him is a near access to Us, and a good place of (final) return (Paradise).
The actual event as one clearly understands from the aforesaid verses of the Quran was – David had expressed his desire to Uriah (or whatever be the name of the man) that he should divorce his wife as David wanted her for himself. And because David was a king, his request put Uriah in a helpless situation feeling compelled to yield. At this time, before Uriah could act as David had desired, two righteous men of the nation suddenly appeared in the presence of David and presented their problem which (in terms of violation of justice) was similar to the story of David and Uriah. On hearing it, David gave his decision as king, asserting that the man with “99 ewes” had wronged the other man who with one ewe. Soon after, his conscience made him realize his violation when he became aware that this incident was a reminder to him of his own act of injustice (As David already had many wives and he wanted to add one more to them). David immediately repented, fell down prostrate before God Almighty and reversed his decision. On the basis of his sincere repentance, David was granted forgiveness by the Divine Power and his status remained unaffected. On accepting his repentance, Quran 38:26 is also a warning to Prophet David from God Almighty along with giving him the good news of exalting his rank, being evidence of the fact that David never again stumbled into similar temptations or errors arising from personal desires.
So, David, a human (and prophet) got a wrong desire but God protected and guided him. He remained righteous, but Bible made him a rapist and deceiver.
Who is deriding prophets, Bible or Quran?”
THEN YOU SAID,
1. If God chooses to record the sins of the prophets that is objectionable to your brain. The way you made the recording of the sins of David in the Bible equal to “Bible made him a rapist and deceiver” shows us how Islam has corrupted your mind. It’s no wonder only Islam can do that!
2. The one who reads the story of David in the Quran should be left wondering with many questions and confusion.
What was David’s wrong? Why did David have to ask forgiveness? What was it that David repented of?
These are the simple but important questions regarding David in this context. The so-called Allah’s word got no clue to offer.
My response:
1. Muslim can’t believe their prophets would be rapist and deceiver. You believe and follow them. What else excuse you need to hide your activity.
2. Because David DEMANDED for this (his wife) and created problem for him(? Uriah) and failed the test of Lord. Therefore he asked for forgiveness.
So, according to you, the further story has any clue to your problem. Brother, that is just the continuation of this story (2 Samuel Chapters 12). But, where did God punish David? God punished Bathsheba and that baby, by killing him (the baby) and giving David a fresh baby.
I already told you not to quote from unauthentic sources. Instead, you did the same i.e. you quoted from book of historians esp. the book is refuted as proof of tradition (Hadith). O.K. can you give me the exact chain of narrator of this story in Tabari. And as far as Tabari is concerned he wrote the story as he heard from peoples, honestly, but mentioned in the book itself that there are many weakness in tradition and could not provide narrator in many cases which is a must to verify a hadith. Also in many instances scholars mention the hadith and tell that it is a weak hadith only to make us know that this is a fabrication. You can see hadith books even from Sihah sittah like Tirmidhi or Sunnan Abu dawud or Ibn Majah, scholars have kept the weak tradition in the book with the mention in places as it is a weak hadith (mostly lie). It does not degrade the authors rather show their honesty and dedication to pass the correct information (within their limit)
If you can’t control this and want to keep quoting from unauthentic sources, please don’t debate with me. If you can’t quote from AUTHENTIC SOURCES as MUSLIMS believe and proved, you have no right to argue on the matters related to Muslim. Please control your hypocrisy.
Later, some of your disciple may consider you as historian and started quoting from your books (suppose you write)or even from any muslim author. It can’t be acceptable to Muslims even if you or your disciple love them. It has to go through verification for authentication. Nobody can lie and escape in Islam.
I gave you the reason why MUSLIMS don’t consider books of historian as source of knowledge for Islam. By the way the story you presented is a known fabrication. So, I won’t accept it as argument. Brother, I told you in advance but I knew you can’t help it because your foundation is based on lies. May God Give you courage to face the Truth.
You gave your argument:
“. By the way, regarding the quotes from Muslim historian Tabari you expressed some objections, which is typically the character of a whining and loosing child. I suggested a better way of debating without hurting each others religious feelings. You did not accept that and went on your way throwing insults and false accusations on god’s word, the bible. Now when you realize you are loosing ground you demand that i follow your criterion. You are behaving like a silly fellow. You believe blindly that Quran is Allah’s word, Muhammad is Allah’s prophet and hadiths such as Bukhari, Muslim etc. are authentic. Did I ever agree to that? Or when did I agree to quote only these ones in our postings? I did offer something along these lines, but like a typical Muslim apologist you rejected it and now started to whine, weep, cry and complain! HOW CAN YOU EXPECT ME TO QUOTE ONLY WHAT YOU EXPECT ME TO QUOTE WHEN YOU HAVE REFUSED TO ABIDE BY SAME PRINCIPLES? So far I was quoting from these as they are readily available to me. As I am expanding the study of Islam I am getting access to wider Islamic sources from pious Muslims and that’s why I am quoting even from them wherever appropriate. (Readers, please note that I am not quoting here anti-Muslims or liberal Muslims, but pious Muslims.) ”
My response to yours (in CAPITALS):
1. “HOW CAN YOU EXPECT ME TO QUOTE ONLY WHAT YOU EXPECT ME TO QUOTE WHEN YOU HAVE REFUSED TO ABIDE BY SAME PRINCIPLES? “
Did I refuse to quote you from the authentic sources according to your belief? So, it means probably you don’t believe in your Bible totally. I challenge you to give one proof where I quoted from BOOKS you don’t believe to be correct.
2. “AS I AM EXPANDING THE STUDY OF ISLAM I AM GETTING ACCESS TO WIDER ISLAMIC SOURCES FROM PIOUS MUSLIMS AND THAT’S WHY I AM QUOTING EVEN FROM THEM WHEREVER APPROPRIATE.”
Brother, you are again wrong. Christian Apologetics read Tabari as one of the first few books of Muslim sources (because they get many weak tradition inside to fulfill their desire), even before they read Bible and mostly they never read Quran except to confirm their quotations.
3. “YOU BELIEVE BLINDLY THAT QURAN IS ALLAH’S WORD, MUHAMMAD IS ALLAH’S PROPHET AND HADITHS SUCH AS BUKHARI, MUSLIM ETC. ARE AUTHENTIC. DID I EVER AGREE TO THAT? OR WHEN DID I AGREE TO QUOTE ONLY THESE ONES IN OUR POSTINGS?”
Again wrong. We don’t believe them blindly. We have reasons to believe. We have the originals plus the chain of narrators quoting the originals plus biography of the chain of narrators (to verify them) plus we have wholly preserved Quran (through memorization) to study and investigate them (Hadiths). Now, can you tell me what do you have for your holy book, leave the other story books, to make you believe Bible as original. Yes, you have no memorization system, so totally dependent on material. And, you have thousands of original manuscripts and amazingly no two are duplicate. Even you accepted about such problems of alteration in the materials of Bible. You have no system of chain of narrator to verify the claim of original. How come you utter such rubbish.
So, who told you to agree? But if you want to give me proof related to my faith it should be from the books we faith, the way I do to you. It is an etiquette. Yes, you even did not agree for etiquette, that you will never lie. Probably that is the reason you are busy lying since first comment. May God guide you to the truth.
VII. YOU WROTE:
QUOTING MY COMMENT IN COMMENT 49,
“How about your Muhammad? Look at your own Quran’s record of what has been said of him: “And they say: “O you (Muhammad) to whom the Dhikr (the Qur’an) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man. Why do you not bring angels to us if you are of the truthful ones?” S. 15:6 Hilali-Khan. The so-called Allah’s word records that Muhammad was declared by others as a MAD man.” My response: This is another incident where you tried to prove your point by “turning off the light”. Now I will turn the lights on. Bad peoples usually declare good people as mad man, …..it does not make the man, mad.”
YOU INTENTIONALLY LEFT THE NEXT FEW LINES LET ME INCLUDE AS IN ORIGINAL.
….. it does not make the man, mad. It is not similar to David’s story where Michal is pointing out his shameful act. Because, he himself never denied neither did the author deny, instead he over reacted and proved her point to be correct (as we saw above). In these verses of Quran, prophet was called mad man by people, but in the verses to follow, IT IS CLEARED THAT IT WAS FALSE ALLEGATION RATHER A TYPE OF MOCK BY THE PEOPLES TO THEIR PROPHET.
Quran 15:11 And never came a Messenger to them but they did mock him.
Brother you can’t misquote and escape. Readers can see your deception, once the light is on.
AND THEN YOU WROTE:
1. You are right, ‘bad peoples usually declare good people as mad man, it does not make the man, mad.’ However, mad people sometimes think they are mad…..
My response: Give the proof not your ill-thinking.
2. The opponents of Muhammad did believe and say that he was a madman. Although Muhammad through his alleged inspired VERSES DENIED IT IN THE ABOVE VERSES, initially he himself thought that he was a ‘madman’ or going mad….
THEN YOU QUOTED FROM TABARI WHICH I DON’T INCLUDE HERE (REASONS , AS I MENTIONED ABOVE) .
“But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, “O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah’s Apostle in truth” whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home.” (Sahi Bukhari V9, B87, N.111)
My response:
So, what is the problem with this hadith? Where is it said he became mad. It is only said he was very disturbed (metaphorically, he felt like throwing himself from mountain) by such feelings in the beginning, and after getting the soothing message he was relieved, same as we discussed in the comments before.
What happened to your senses? May God save you.
VIII. You wrote and pasted my comment:
“Regarding prophet Isiah: You said “…The prophet went about barefoot and naked (in his undergarment) as a shocking means of gaining the attention of the people to the severity of his prediction….”.
Brother, last week I saw a group of some Apologists walking on road naked with their buttocks uncovered and barefoot. Don’t be angry, I probably mean they were naked under their garments. Even though I gave the beautiful reasoning that they were naked under their garments, still it sound offensive. How could God use such offensive language (if not in literal sense) for his prophets in His holy book? But, it was more than the use of language and it did mean naked only, not naked in his undergarment. Reason:
a. God forgot to say that Isiah was naked in his under garment which was inspired to you people. No where it is mentioned so.
b. Why did the Lord used word ‘SHAME’ for such act when He himself ordered his prophet to do so and predicted the same for the king of Assyria doing to his captives.
Isiah 20:3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant ISAIAH HATH WALKED NAKED and barefoot three years [for] a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia; 4So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, NAKED and barefoot, even WITH [THEIR] BUTTOCKS UNCOVERED, to the SHAME of Egypt.
Your reading ability is seriously doubtful. Now you tried another covering up by “turning the light off”. You quoted from Quran and tried to prove it to be similar to the above act. But actually it is opposite. You quoted about Adam and Eve when they ate from the prohibited tree , their test got finished and were made ready to be sent to earth and made as spouse for one another and their sexual desire was set started which in the language of Quran “ their raiment was stripped” . Is it the same as one getting naked in public to get attention? It is no where written that they were made naked with buttocks uncovered (language of Bible). Even if taken in literal sense (which is not the case even according to Bible for Adam and Eve in this scenario), it is not a shameful act as they were spouse (first spouse on the Earth) and was private in their act, as there was no body to see them. You mean all the spouses in their privacy, if get naked, it is a shameful act and it is similar to naked females rallying on road of America for certain demands such as wild life conservation (to get attention probably inspired from Bible, as we saw above ).
Isn’t it amazing and hypocritical? I think this much light was enough to expose your deception. Our intelligent readers can judge the lie and deception.”
Then, your response:
1. Here again you displayed your corrupt mind under Islamic influence. Prophet Isaiah was ordered by God to be a sign to others in a particular way. That is offensive language to you?! You are telling me that Almighty God cannot order His servants to do what He wants them to do. But in the same breath you believe that it is divine order if Muhammad says ‘bow down to the black stone.’ You expect your Allah to command his prophets only what you think is acceptable or what Muhammad says is right. That is your ignorance and heightened perversion. By the way, if a person is fully naked then you don’t have to say that person is walking with buttocks uncovered!
My response:
You mean God will say his prophet to walk naked for getting attention. Isn’t it? Ha.. Haa.
Who told you that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) bowed to black stone? I read, He kissed the stone, sometimes pointed towards that stone with his finger or stick but never bowed to that stone. Yes, we can keep certain things like stone in front to guard our area of salat (prayer) from mistake of others or we can point towards a direction in salat even if pillar or stone is in front of you but that never amounts to bowing to it.
Don’t you think Bible also allows this to have direction for bowing in prayer .
Psalms 138:2 I will WORSHIP TOWARD THY HOLY TEMPLE, and praise thy name for thy loving kindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Brother, we can’t bow to anybody whether son, or cow, except to one and only Allah. I think it is your, yet another cheating.
Yes, if you happen to see a person from back, esp. buttocks, there is no abnormality in saying that You saw that person naked with buttocks uncovered (i.e. to stress your point).
2. You justified your own book by saying, “You quoted about Adam and Eve when they ate from the prohibited tree , their test got finished and were made ready to be sent to earth and made as spouse for one another and their sexual desire was set started which in the language of Quran “ their raiment was stripped” . Is it the same as one getting naked in public to get attention? It is no where written that they were made naked with buttocks uncovered (language of Bible). Even if taken in literal sense (which is not the case even according to Bible for Adam and Eve in this scenario), it is not a shameful act as they were spouse (first spouse on the Earth) and was private in their act, as there was no body to see them.”
Here is what your Quran says, “O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their SHAME: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.” (Quran 7:27). But looks like you know better than your Q Allah! You say, ‘it is not shameful act as they were spouse and was private in their act, as there was no body to see them.” But your Q Allah says, “he got (Satan) your parents…stripping them of their raiment, to expose their SHAME.” If you are right then Q Allah is wrong for he says that ‘they were exposed of their SHAME!’
My response:
So, you are trying to make “shame” mean as their “shameful act”. Isn’t it? Sorry brother, your lack of Arabic knowledge is a big problem. Let me show you what you don’t want to see. Let me quote the same from another standard translation i.e. Muhsin Khan (or Hilali as you prefer to say) which is more literal in translation than other translations.
Quran 7:27O Children of Adam! Let not Shaitân (Satan) deceive you, as he got your parents [Adam and Hawwa (Eve)] out of Paradise, stripping them of their raiments, to show them their PRIVATE PARTS. Verily, he and Qabîluhu (his soldiers from the jinns or his tribe) see you from where you cannot see them. Verily, We made the Shayâtin (devils) Auliyâ’ (protectors and helpers) for those who believe not.
Here, “shame” means “private parts”, yes, think properly even this word (shame) can be used . And this proves my point [i.e. their sexual desire was set started which in the language of Quran “ their raiment was stripped”]. If you need further Arabic details, tell me until you get satisfied or you start abusing me and my faith.
THEN YOU SAID,
# But you have a good point in stating, ‘it is not same as one getting naked in public.’ Wait a minute, for that purpose let us turn to your Islamic stupid stories now:
“Narrated Aisha
Zayd ibn Harithah came to Medina ……………..
Tirmidhi transmitted it.” (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 1220- ALIM CD-ROM Version)
……….
“Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah:
While Allah’s Apostle was carrying stones (along) with the people of Mecca for (the building of) the Ka’ba wearing an Izar (waist-sheet cover), his uncle Al-‘Abbas said to him, “O my nephew! (It would be better) if you take off your Izar and put it over your shoulders underneath the stones.” So he took off his Izar and put it over his shoulders, but he fell unconscious AND SINCE THEN HE HAD NEVER BEEN SEEN NAKED. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 360)”
(Readers, what should we call all this on the part of Muslims like M Comforter? STUPIDITY? HYPOCRISY? SHAMELESSNESS? WICKEDNESS? OR ISLAMIC HONESTY! You decide.) #
My response:
First hadith you quoted from Tirmidhi is either a lie or probably a weak hadith and not present in authentic collection of Tirmidhi. You can check Alim CD for windows version 4.5. In my book of Tirmidhi (Sahih; authentic) also this number does not exist. In short, I would not accept any fabricated hadith as argument, even if you feel like jumping from mountain.
Now regarding second hadith
Let me give another version of the same hadith
Sahih Muslim Book3 Hadith 670,
Jabir b. ‘Abdullah reported: When the Ka’ba was constructed the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abbas went and lifted stones. Abbas said to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him): Place your lower garment on your shoulder (so that you may protect yourself from the roughness and hardness of stones). He (the Holy Prophet) did this, but fell down upon the ground in a state of unconciousness and his eyes were turned towards the sky. He then stood up and said: My lower garment, my lower garment; and this wrapper was tied around him. In the hadith transmitted by Ibn Rafi’, there is the word:” On his neck” and he did not say:” Upon his shoulder.”
See in both of hadiths the the last narrator is the same. And there is difference in few words, it happens, when two peoples narrate the same story heard from same person.
Probably, this story is of his childhood and he was busy helping family members in Kaba construction,( because his uncle Abbas did not accept Islam after the battle of Badr i.e. until nearly 20 years of prophet hood, and he was even captured during that battle). He tied his lower garment over neck to avoid injury on neck and shoulder while carrying stone (as suggested by uncle). It was not kept on shoulder, as felt in other version of this story. And even here it is added at the end that “on his neck not shoulder”. Another proof that after he stood up from state of unconsciousness, he was saying about his lower garment i.e. My lower garment , My lower garment , only to find it tied around him, so it was tied to neck only. So, it is not mentioned in hadith that he got naked. Only problem here is, THE WORDS OF NARRATOR that he was never seen naked after that. It is his misunderstanding while other narrator did not mention such view. Probably he got such thinking because he felt, he (prophet pbuh) kept the lower garment literally over shoulder, as said by his uncle and mentioned in this version of story.
Is this story parallel to story of Drunken prophets exhibiting in public (Bible). Actually speaking it is opposite of what you claim. Here prophet even in that age and that condition of unconsciousness was so much concerned about his dress.
Now let me reverse the barrel on you.
(Readers, what should we call all this on the part of Mr. Christian Adil? STUPIDITY? HYPOCRISY? SHAMELESSNESS? WICKEDNESS? OR …………! You decide.)
But here is difference in our ways. Try to find out by comparing with his similar comment above.
3. How about your final so-called illiterate prophet portraying prophet Moses as NAKED in public?
“Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “(The Prophet) Moses was a shy person and used to cover his body completely because of his extensive shyness. One of the children of Israel hurt him by saying, ‘He covers his body in this way only because of some defect in his skin, either leprosy or scrotal hernia, or he has some other defect.’ Allah wished to clear Moses of what they said about him, so one day while Moses was in seclusion, he took off his clothes and put them on a stone and started taking a bath. When he had finished the bath, he moved towards his clothes so as to take them, but the stone took his clothes and fled; Moses picked up his stick and ran after the stone saying, ‘O stone! Give me my garment!’ Till he reached a group of Bani Israel WHO SAW HIM NAKED then, and found him the best of what Allah had created, and ALLAH CLEARED HIM OF WHAT THEY HAD ACCUSED HIM OF. The stone stopped there and Moses took and put his garment on and started hitting the stone with his stick. By Allah, the stone still has some traces of the hitting, three, four or five marks. This was what Allah refers to in His Saying:– “O you who believe! Be you not like those Who annoyed Moses, But Allah proved his innocence of that which they alleged, And he was honorable In Allah’s Sight.” (33.69) (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 616)
……….SIMILAR HADITHS
You believe these stupid stories and accept them with Islamic piousness? (Amazing) While these stupid stories portraying prophet of God being NAKED you don’t see any problem in that. Isn’t this heightened Islamic hypocrisy!
My response:
If somebody has certain mark on his genital region and it is the only proof which is decisive in a case and court orders for it’s verification and authorized people see his genital region and testify. Do you mean that man was indecent because he showed his genitals to others.
Or, Judge was indecent by asking for this. Or, would you call that man as naked man because of what Judge did to him?
What do you call this? A necessity or exhibitionism?
Opposite to your claim, Moses was projected as shy person not as drunken naked stud of Bible. And even then (after being alleged) he did not show his “shame” (sorry, private parts) to peoples and God wanted to rescue his prophet from such taunting and helped him in this way, which he himself could have never done , out of his shyness. So, in brief this hadith says,
Moses was a very shy and righteous person, who out of his shyness tolerated the allegation. Can you still call Moses a naked man. If so, I have no problem in asking you to get yourself consulted to a psychiatrist. May God return back your senses.
IX. You quoted my comments:
“With such quality attributed to prophets they are bound to get rid of their prophet hood and I am sure at least in the case of Prophet Lot (as Quran saved him and we believe he was free from such lie). In one place, I said that it was regarding prophet Israel (Genesis 35:22), I never said prophet Israel committed that sin/ incest. Yes, it was his elder son who committed incest with his mother (father’s wife or concubine – in the language of Bible wife and concubine can be same e.g. see GENESIS 25:1 and I CHRONICLES 1:32). You gave a good reasoning that at that time it was not prohibited to have incest with mother, the law came much later. We don’t believe so. We can’t expect such act from any human leave the prophet and his family, to be a non sinful act, at any time whether before thousand years or more. I think even Bible agrees with me and even you too partially, because you said “The SIN of Ruben has been exposed in the Bible. As a result of this sin Ruben lost his position to Levi in God’s blessings.” Why he lost the position, if it was still not the sinful act? Similarly how could Prophet Lot (nauzbillah) perform incest with his daughters much before the appearance of law of Moses when it was still considered sin (as we saw above). Similarly how could Judah (father in law thinking going to whore) and Tamar (taking sweet revenge) commit such sinful acts. For what purpose Bible presents such story & what moral lesson is there? Probably a theme for x- graded movies or story books, certainly not of holy book of God.”
My response:
1. For the corrupt mind everything is corrupt, ………….followed by TYPICAL CHRISTIAN ADIL’S ABUSE .
My response:
May God guide you to decency in accepting truth.
2. a) You wrote under Islamic influence, “You gave a good reasoning that at that time it was not prohibited to have incest with mother, the law came much later.”..
Where did I say that “at that time it was not prohibited to have incest with mother” giving the impression that it was acceptable to have incest with mother? ……. (followed by TYPICAL CHRISTIAN ADIL’S ABUSE) …What I wrote was, “Again although INCEST OF THIS TYPE HAS BEEN FORBIDDEN IN THE ‘LAW OF MOSES,’ which came five hundred years after this incident, the Bible is not endorsing it but exposing it.” …….( followed by TYPICAL CHRISTIAN ADIL’S ABUSE ).
My response:
I think you are again trying to play with words. You are saying “incest of this type was prohibited in the LAW OF MOSES, and law of Moses came 500 years after this incident”. So, what does it mean? It is obvious that it does not apply to peoples before the law.
Now regarding your comment, “the Bible is not endorsing it but exposing it”. Where did I say Bible advised you to do this? I only said a holy book should have certain etiquettes and it should not give wrong image to follower, who may take it, that if prophets of God (having communication with God) could commit such sins and escape, why don’t we try it (after all we have double shelter, we are not prophets so accountability is also less plus somebody has committed suicide to save us). Isn’t it an important reason, Christian world is deeply involved in drinking, exhibitionism, illegal sex involving incest?
Is it not a confusion for people that the person whom God selected for conveying message and guidance, himself involved in all those? Yes, prophets were humans but they were best of the human of the time with best of the character and strict guidance of God. So, if some prophets did mistake or minor sins , it could be acceptable considering their human nature but Prophets committing adultery and deceiving and killing people to cover his sin is surely not acceptable by any logic. Even Bible says.
Bible – 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
c) By the way, don’t try to equate father’s concubine with own mother in every sense with the help of Islamic reasoning. ….
My response:
Did I try to equate word “concubine” and “wife”. I quoted your Bible which probably you believe to be an authentic source. If you don’t believe particular chapter to be true, please inform me, inshallah I will avoid them.
Genesis 25:1 Then again ABRAHAM TOOK A WIFE, and her name [was] Keturah.
1 Chronicles 1:32 2Now the sons of Keturah, ABRAHAM’S CONCUBINE: she bare …….
X. You wrote:
1. & 2.
Your boasting is worth testing. If you think that’s what you can do, first please answer these questions:
a. Could and did prophets sin? If no, then, where does your so-called Allah’s word (Quran) say that prophets cannot sin or did not sin?
b. Where does the Quran say that God will not expose the sins of the prophets or God’s word does not record such things?
c. According to your Quran or Muhammad or Islam or you, what are the acceptable accounts or God’s word can contain and what it cannot contain and why?
d. According to the Quran or you what kind of language (literal or figurative) or non-offensive language is acceptable for God’s word and what not and why?
I hope with your answer we can do some meaningful and interesting discussion of the Bible and Quran.
………………….
My response:
Let me quote few verse from Bible and Quran to explain to you that it is not only Islamic logic rather endorsement of Bible as well, of my claims that
a)PROPHETS were righteous and sent to us to guide peoples and were of best of characters and model for the society &
b)HOLY BOOKS are plain, without crookedness, for guidance of people (of course by giving good examples not by showing blue films that also of prophets; brother even in present society we will not show our children X graded movies to teach them or guide them instead we will show some inspiring movies to boost their morale and guide them ).
REGARDING PROPHETS:
Exodus 7: 1And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. 2Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
Numbers 11: 29And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD’S people were prophets, [and] that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Genesis 15:6 (God to Abram) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
2 Samuel22: 21 (David is acknowledging God) The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me. 22For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
Luke 23: 47 (peoples saying about Jesus) Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.
John 16: 7 (Jesus about prophet Mohammad) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, HE WILL REPROVE THE WORLD OF SIN, AND OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND OF JUDGMENT: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me
Quran 19:
41. And mention in the Book (the Qur’ân) Ibrâhim (Abraham). Verily! He was a man of truth, a Prophet
51. And mention in the Book (this Qur’ân) Mûsa (Moses). Verily! He was chosen and he was a Messenger (and) a Prophet.
54. And mention in the Book (the Qur’ân) Ismâ’il (Ishmael). Verily! He was true to what he promised, and he was a Messenger, (and) a Prophet.
Quran 37: 79. Salâmun (peace) be upon Nûh (Noah) (from Us) among the ‘Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!” 80. Verily, thus We reward the Muhsinûn (good-doers).
Quran 6: 84. And We bestowed upon him Ishâque (Isaac) and Ya’qûb (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nûh (Noah), and among his progeny Dawûd (David), Sulaimân (Solomon), Ayub (Job), Yûsuf (Joseph), Mûsa (Moses), and Hârûn (Aaron). Thus do We reward the gooddoers. 85. And Zakariyâ (Zachariya), and Yahya (John) and ‘Iesa (Jesus) and Iliyâs (Elias), each one of them was of the righteous. 86. And Ismâ’il (Ishmael) and Al-Yas’â (Elisha), and Yûnus (Jonah) and Lout (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the ‘Alamîn (mankind and jinns) (of their times).
Quran 3:39 Then the angels called him, while he was standing in prayer in Al-Mihrâb (a praying place or a private room), (saying): “Allâh gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John), confirming (believing in) the Word from Allâh [i.e. the creation of ‘Iesa (Jesus), the Word from Allâh (Be! – and he was!)], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women , a Prophet, from among the righteous.”
Quran 68:4 And verily, you (O Muhammad Sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe Wa Sallam) are on an exalted standard of character.
Quran 33:21 Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.
REGARDING HOLY BOOK:
Bible – 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Bible-2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Quran 18: 1. All the praises and thanks be to Allâh, Who has sent down to His slave (Muhammad) the Book (the Qur’ân), and has not placed therein any crookedness.
Quran 6: 154. Then, We gave Mûsa (Moses) the Book [the Taurât (Torah)], to complete (Our Favour) upon those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail and a guidance and a mercy that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
Quran 7: 52. Certainly, We have brought to them a Book (the Qur’ân) which We have explained in detail with knowledge, – a guidance and a mercy to a people who believe.
Quran 16: 89. And (remember) the Day when We shall raise up from every nation a witness against them from amongst themselves. And We shall bring you (O Muhammad ) as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the Book (the Qur’an) as an exposition of everything, a guidance, a mercy, and glad tidings for those who have submitted themselves (to Allâh as Muslims).
So, now we can see your questions:
a) Were the prophets sinner or righteous? We saw God selected righteous people for that purpose. And I must remind you, I never said prophets were angels and sinless. I said prophets were human, prone for sins but under strict guidance from God to give their peoples good moral, not typical drunken studs exhibiting nakedness (and attributing to God) and performing illegal sex, incest even openly (and attributing to God) and deceiving and killing people to cover his sins. And even praying to other gods (i.e. shirk).
1 kings 11:9 And the LORD was angry with SOLOMON, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, 10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that HE SHOULD NOT GO AFTER OTHER GODS: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
b) It is a logic that something which is there to guide people (i.e. Holy book) should not promote bad things by attributing those things to their models. Are these indecent materials in the book of God are guidance and mercy to us (to straighten us) or crookedness. I will quote a story of Bible tell me where it sets to righteousness or any of the criteria given by your Bible for it to be from God.
Bible-2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is]
(i) profitable for doctrine,
(ii) for reproof,
(iii) for correction,
(iv) for instruction in righteousness:
Read this story:
Genesis 38: 6And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name [was] Tamar. 7And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. 8And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. 9And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled [it] on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. 10And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also. 11Then said Judah to Tamar his daughter in law, Remain a widow at thy father’s house, till Shelah my son be grown: for he said, Lest peradventure he die also, as his brethren [did]. And Tamar went and dwelt in her father’s house.
12And in process of time the daughter of Shuah Judah’s wife died; and Judah was comforted, and went up unto his sheepshearers to Timnath, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite. 13And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep. 14And she put her widow’s garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which [is] by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife. 15When Judah saw her, he thought her [to be] an harlot; because she had covered her face. 16And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she [was] his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me? 17And he said, I will send [thee] a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give [me] a pledge, till thou send [it]? 18And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that [is] in thine hand. And he gave [it] her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him. 19And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood. 20And Judah se
you people at sakshi are cheaters, having no faith in any religion whatsoever except ego and selfishness.Mr comforter is a friend of mine and i was following this debate since very beginning. He sent me a copy of his response to last comment of Aadil, the idiot, but u people
did not post it to show that Aadil, the uncivilized[his imbecility can explain that] proved his point[in fact his rubbish comments have proved nothing about his claims]. This site is not searching or proving the truth but only wants business…. they are least interested in God or truth.
Do you believe that Jesus is the Messiah?
If so, where in the Quran did Jesus himself say ‘I am the Messiah’?
what sakshi is this
there is no need for that to jesus to say
allah had aleady say that?
shame
Dear typical Muslim ‘Thablikman,’
We believe Jesus is…
– Jesus is the Son of God. Because He himself claimed it (Revelation 2:18; John 3:16-21; 22:70), but the shameless and hypocrites can’t accept that.
– Jesus is God. Because the true God already said that (Hebrews 1:6-8), but the shameless and foolish can’t even understand that let alone accepting it.
We also believe that after Jesus had died, rose again and went into heaven to be with the Father Satan gave false revelations to false prophets to mislead masses (Acts 11:13-15). That’s why the world got false religions and wrong information about Jesus.
Please use commonsense and equal standards for both Islam and Christianity.
May the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ set you free before it is too late!
Adil.
Please note the following correction…
The reference regarding Satan giving false revelations to mislead many is in 2Corinthians 11:13-15 NOT in Acts 11:13-15!
Adil
Dear brothers, we believe that Jesus has come to the world to save sinners, and the moment i believed i was set free from my sins, i was addicted to smoking, drinking and all kinds of sin, but when i accepted him i was set free from my sins. so God is Holy, first quality of a God, and if any one says that when in bible Jesus said that i am God then i will believe, here is the verse.
1.So the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath day.(Matt 12:8). in old testment people used to worship and keep it holy God on sabbath day
2.HE SAID IN JOHN 10:30 I AND FATHER ARE ONE.
3 IN MY NAME(JESUS) they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; MARK 16:17
we can cast out demons only in God’s name,they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover. is there any prophet in quran who said in my name you can do miracles, if any one says so, he is not a prophet.
THESE VERSES ARE ENOUGH IF ANY ONE WANTS TO KNOW FROM BIBLE THAT JESUS IS LORD.
finally hellfire is waiting for those who reject Jesus, My dear brothers, It is going to be everlasting persecution. once u die you will be either in heaven (if you believe in Jesus)
or hell if you reject,
Bible clearly says that Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God(Father) remains on him. John 3:36.